Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see...
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.Bleed was...
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.Bleed was...
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though...
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though...
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Goal was not to increase power in any way. I have tested the setup heavily now and I am satisfied. No need for bus brakes on my tallboy. this setup feels similar to trp evo in power while using the lever I like and prefer.
Full big caliper maven on my big bike works well, but I don't want the on/off feel on my little rig.
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're...
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're doing what you're supposed to (leave pads in, insert thin side of pad spacer, advance pistons until pads hit the spacer, hold, flip the pad spacer to use thick side to force them back, repeat), that's not even physically possible. Like, there's not enough space for the piston to come out.
The problem with a lot of reviewers and even bike shop mechanics is that they assume that because something looks similar to something they've used before, and they've done things a certain way with that thing, their process will work. Instead of something obvious like RTFM (or WTFV). Documentation is there for a reason. Willful ignorance is not an excuse.
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6...
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6 working correctly is an insane stat and would be costing SRAM millions if this was playing out across all customers. Clearly it isn't, which unfortunately points the finger back at the guys reviewing them.
Not to belittle that bit at all, but I can see scenarios where after following the manufacturer's recommended process and not getting desire results can poke a thought about getting the pistons to extend further than the recommended process allows by not using a spacer. Is it right? Nope. Is it logical? Sorta. If you run into a performance issue consistently and the recommended process doesn't remedy it, you kinda have to go off script. That'll work against you often enough certainly, but desperate times, desperate measures.
Poked around and sure enough Trickstuff has the same process outlined for their brakes on initial set up. SRAM ain't alone in this step.
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see...
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.Then you’d measure...
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
Very true, I would also want to do a stress test on the brakes themselves with alternate fluids in them. Put them through a bunch of cycles moving the fluid through the system to see which lasts longest, find some way to introduce heat into it in a controlled way, probably just at the Caliper side. Even if the the different oils degrade the seals, some brakes may still perform better than others.
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
Alright thanks, I'll send a message to Radic and see what they think of it. Pretty sure I've got no air in them, the lever feel is solid and very short free stroke, but maybe something I missed.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.His...
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
I will and report back, but I can tell you most reviews are great for codes r and rsc and I find the first pure garbage, the second a tad better
Still require a lot of effort to slow down in the steep
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only...
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.you dont need to be...
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
Sure everyone has preferences, but aren't you letting your own biases lead you to disregard his reviews as flawed or invalid? The mavens do have a very heavy pull compared to other brakes on the market, Shimano, Hayes, maguras, other srams, and if you are not an amazing or experienced rider, you are going to drag your brakes far more. Heavy pull and brake dragging leads to hand fatigue and arm pump. That can be corrected with different braking technique, but one that is more suited to racing, braking late and hard only when you need to. But the majority of riders aren't going to be doing that. They're going to drag and comfort brake more because having fun and feeling confident while riding is more important than the best braking technique. His reviews may not be suited to you, his views on what feels good in a brake and what is important for a brake clearly aren't what you look for in a brake. So find a reviewer who's views and experiences match yours, that way you get good recommendations for you.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride...
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to...
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
Not super heavy, only race enduro recreationally, Mavens are my favorite brakes.
Had Saints, Saint/XT Combo and Curas on my own bikes, have tried Maguras, Codes and Hopes on other bikes.
Mavens are the first brake where I feel like I don’t need more power out of it and the modulation is still there. I found that I need to think about braking a lot less.
Lever force is only a problem at the beginning of the stroke, once you reach the bite point it’s completely fine and unless you have weak hands shouldn’t be a problem for any decently fit mountainbiker. You need to exert way less maximal strength at the bite point which is usually where the hands start hurting.
Yes, the setup and bleed is fiddly but once you have that down they’re great and right now I can’t see myself ride anything else besides maybe Trickstuff. But considering I paid 350 bucks for a set of maven silvers the value comparison is crazy.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back...
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
Woof. I had no idea about that vid/recommendation. I recant my comment on their wrenching capabilities.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
I just rewatched the set up portion of his review for the mavens and looked through srams install and bleed instructions didn't see anything missing from the set up. The mavens set up like any other sram brake, what steps did he skip?
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Goal was not to increase power in any way. I have tested the setup heavily now and I am satisfied. No need for bus brakes on my tallboy. this setup feels similar to trp evo in power while using the lever I like and prefer.
Full big caliper maven on my big bike works well, but I don't want the on/off feel on my little rig.
Not to belittle that bit at all, but I can see scenarios where after following the manufacturer's recommended process and not getting desire results can poke a thought about getting the pistons to extend further than the recommended process allows by not using a spacer. Is it right? Nope. Is it logical? Sorta. If you run into a performance issue consistently and the recommended process doesn't remedy it, you kinda have to go off script. That'll work against you often enough certainly, but desperate times, desperate measures.
Poked around and sure enough Trickstuff has the same process outlined for their brakes on initial set up. SRAM ain't alone in this step.
Very true, I would also want to do a stress test on the brakes themselves with alternate fluids in them. Put them through a bunch of cycles moving the fluid through the system to see which lasts longest, find some way to introduce heat into it in a controlled way, probably just at the Caliper side. Even if the the different oils degrade the seals, some brakes may still perform better than others.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
Alright thanks, I'll send a message to Radic and see what they think of it. Pretty sure I've got no air in them, the lever feel is solid and very short free stroke, but maybe something I missed.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
i still believe mavens are for a small amount of people, racers that go all out and heavy people especially on ebikes, i can't wait to spend some time on them if i get the chance but the feel is not good at all imo, between the hard to pull sram style lever and the lack of proper modulation to handle that amount of power.
OK, can someone tell me why it would be beneficial to go with a straight fitting over a banjo fitting at the Caliper for mtb brakes?
https://youtu.be/YbjymgGvse0?si=kYAtwW0NJqOexFmu a great and detailed review of some Trickstuff Maxima
Dale stone, the guy who portrays that he 'knows it all' but has a terrible brake technique and blames all the brakes.
200mm rotors f/r Mavens on mine, Good modulation after a couple of rides.
Heavy pull makes zero difference if you use brakes properly and dont drag them....
now i see why you don't like Dale, cause he did not like the Mavens, if you're strong as and an amazing rider that brakes only when needed, good on you, still those brake could've been executed better with a lighter lever pull.
After all riding on gnarly trails causes hand fatigue, the less i can get from components the better, and brakes is one of the main one.
Dale's "experience" contradicts everyone else's. So much so that NSMB actually went out of their way to call it out. Ride them before you talk shit.
His lever force test was pseudoscientific junk at best.
I will and report back, but I can tell you most reviews are great for codes r and rsc and I find the first pure garbage, the second a tad better
Still require a lot of effort to slow down in the steep
his reviews are flawed in the fact he likes his old gen shimano's and thats just his style but wont admit others.
you dont need to be an amazing rider to use mavens effectively or brake properly.... if you know how to drive you can use MTB brakes.
Sure everyone has preferences, but aren't you letting your own biases lead you to disregard his reviews as flawed or invalid? The mavens do have a very heavy pull compared to other brakes on the market, Shimano, Hayes, maguras, other srams, and if you are not an amazing or experienced rider, you are going to drag your brakes far more. Heavy pull and brake dragging leads to hand fatigue and arm pump. That can be corrected with different braking technique, but one that is more suited to racing, braking late and hard only when you need to. But the majority of riders aren't going to be doing that. They're going to drag and comfort brake more because having fun and feeling confident while riding is more important than the best braking technique. His reviews may not be suited to you, his views on what feels good in a brake and what is important for a brake clearly aren't what you look for in a brake. So find a reviewer who's views and experiences match yours, that way you get good recommendations for you.
Not super heavy, only race enduro recreationally, Mavens are my favorite brakes.
Had Saints, Saint/XT Combo and Curas on my own bikes, have tried Maguras, Codes and Hopes on other bikes.
Mavens are the first brake where I feel like I don’t need more power out of it and the modulation is still there. I found that I need to think about braking a lot less.
Lever force is only a problem at the beginning of the stroke, once you reach the bite point it’s completely fine and unless you have weak hands shouldn’t be a problem for any decently fit mountainbiker. You need to exert way less maximal strength at the bite point which is usually where the hands start hurting.
Yes, the setup and bleed is fiddly but once you have that down they’re great and right now I can’t see myself ride anything else besides maybe Trickstuff. But considering I paid 350 bucks for a set of maven silvers the value comparison is crazy.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
Woof. I had no idea about that vid/recommendation. I recant my comment on their wrenching capabilities.
I just rewatched the set up portion of his review for the mavens and looked through srams install and bleed instructions didn't see anything missing from the set up. The mavens set up like any other sram brake, what steps did he skip?
I'll brace for the downvotes, but at least explain my position. Dale's "review" was poor at best and at worst he propagated some new brake testing technique that means nothing, but seems like it does.
For starters, I have major hand problems, in the sense that I haven't been able to ride in 7 months due to trying to let the nerves in my hands heal and may need 2 additional surgeries on top of the previous 2 I had just to regain the ability to ride and function, so hand fatigue is something I'm very familiar with. Most people will experience two types of hand pain on a bike, nerve pain and muscle pain, the former is due to ergonomics or medical issues and can be caused by 100 different things, the latter comes from a lack of hand fitness or something on the bike fatiguing your muscles. I have both problems. The Mavens were some of the best brakes I had that prevented this fatigue in my hands, the amount of power you get from a lever pull is far higher than most other brakes and you can easily feather the bite point on the brakes. I had 0 issues with hand fatigue caused by the brakes, whether it be pain or fatigue from muscles being overworked due to a stiff lever (which is what he claims). Dale is a VERY light rider, my theory is that his hand pain came from immediately jumping to the most powerful pads (which SRAM said not to do) and larger rotors that weren't suitable for his weight, which required more drastic bracing against the braking forces, these are far more powerful than most brakes on the market so if you hadn't tried brakes like Maxima or V4s, you wouldn't really be used to that. Had he spent more time tweaking the contact point and rotor/pads, I think this issue would've gone away.
His bottle test is flat out inaccurate with 0 benefit and says nothing except how much lever force it takes for the lever to stop moving under the weight put on it. These tests are meaningless without measuring power at the caliper. Just hanging a weight on the lever, you could put 1lbs of weight on it (just making up a number) and be putting enough power down to stop an elephant, but you'd never know. I think his goal was to measure the force through the dead stroke, but this test doesn't actually demonstrate what's going on at the caliper, so you have no idea when the dead stroke ends and what power you are getting at the caliper. Enduro MTB measured this properly, but hanging a bottle off shows nothing of value.
Further, most brakes build pressure as you pull the lever and the lever pull becomes harder the more pressure you put down. Using the most obvious example, Dominions, you have a feathery light pull but as you pull through the dead stroke to the end of the lever pull, the pressure needed to add power builds dramatically. Sure, the dead stroke is light, but who cares? If you have to put a ton of pressure at the end when you need it, then you are putting the same force in at the lever to get power down. Point being, lever force to power is what matters and his test is deceiving and meaningless.
I did say "in some brakes", some brakes this effect is dramatically less noticeable, mainly Maximas, Kahas, T4 V4 and...Mavens. Yes, the Maven has a firmer lever pull than the other 3, but the pull largely remains consistent and the amount of power you get for the force at the lever is much better despite a stiffer deadstroke, there isn't a huge change in force required to get a lot of power. The Enduro MTB test handles this by using a consistent measurement of force on the lever to power readings on the caliper, Dale's does not and is, as a result, entirely meaningless.
He's a great rider and I've followed him for years, but his reviews are...not great. The problem is people equate being well spoke with being right and that just isn't the case.
As for his setup, he used the wrong rotors, immediately jumped to the metallic pads, and who knows what his bleed process was. SRAM explicitly said lighter riders will need smaller rotors and the brakes were designed around 2.0mm rotors, not the 1.8s he used. They also said riders typically using metallic pads may need to move to a less powerful pad, but AFAIK he did none of this. I also don't think he tweaked the contact point, I'm 60lbs heavier than he is and I ended up dialing it back a bit. Point being like I said before, if you don't follow the instructions you are gonna have issues.
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