Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment

pedalpedalpedal wrote:

Anyone here going to eurobike?

If you are, mor info on new galfer brake please. There is a flash of it in their insta reel

Shinook wrote:

I'll pre-empt the inevitable butthurt about the below by saying that all of these options are good. They are all powerful, all reasonably easy enough to...

I'll pre-empt the inevitable butthurt about the below by saying that all of these options are good. They are all powerful, all reasonably easy enough to work on, and all (mostly) consistent. I mainly say that because people adore Saints and I found them to be the weaker in almost every category compared to others, but still good. 

I'd also caveat that "power" is somewhat misunderstood IMO. Most people don't have the means to measure overall, total available power, rather they base it on how the brakes feel. A brake like the Maximas may have a ton of overall power, but the Mavens feel more powerful because the power comes on sooner as the brake ramps up. This will also be relative to your weight and how you want the levers to feel.

I posted something similar in another thread, but I'll go into more detail. For reference, I'm 220lbs on a ~33lb steel 29er.

Power: Maven >= Radic > Intend > Maxima > Hope T4 V4 > Dominion > MT7 > Saint - The Mavens have a very quick power deliver,y once the pads engage the difference between "I'm slowing down" and "I'm skidding" is miniscule. This can be dialed in with contact point adjust, but they apply power more progressively than any other brake I've tried. The Radics have a really similar feel with a lighter lever, but feel a bit more controlled and have less deadstroke, basically instant engagement, I ran these closer to the bar than any other brake. The Intends are very close to that feel, but with a much lighter feeling lever and overall better feel, although they lack contact adjust so you can't tweak them as easily. Both Maximas and T4 V4s have enormous power available, but it comes on later in the stroke and is harder to define in lever feel and requires a longer lever throw to obtain. They are the epitome of having a smooth, light, powerful brake that requires a longer lever stroke to get there. I love Dominions and I loved the MT7s, but the power comes on later especially with the latter. I didn't find Saints to be as powerful but they are good enough. 

Consistency: Basically all of the above were consistent with two exceptions. I have been able to fade Dominions on long, flowy descents. I've torched them more than a few times with no change in lever feel, but I've had them turn mushy a few times and that's not an issue I had with most of the others. On the Saints, I had the wandering bite point problems I had with every other Shimano brake, but only in cold and I think this is, in part, due to brake technique where two quick pulls of the lever causes it to change. Some don't have this problem, I did. The rest were very consistent, rarely changed lever feel, and I had no issues in hot/cold or with fade provided they were bled properly. The Mavens did exhibit some wandering bite point (BADLY) when they were new out of the box, but doing the piston massage procedure did away with it. 

Lever feel: (For me and what I'm after) Intend > Radic > Hope > Maxima > Dominion > MT7 > Saint > Maven - The Maven lever feel isn't as bad as people act like it is, but it is firm compared to the others. It's not that it is unusable or awful, just that the other options are smoother and require less force through the deadstroke (I'd argue the engaged force to power is better than some are acting with the Mavens though). I loved the feel of them overall, but the stiffer spring is off putting compared to others. The MT7s were very consistent and smooth, but power came on later than I liked, the first few rides on them I blew a few corners because I kept expecting them to grab faster coming from the Radics. The Hope and Maximas have a lot in common, it's a very light feeling lever even when the pads engage, but it can be somewhat vague if you aren't used to them compared to others, you don't get that 'wall' of sorts you do with other brakes, it is light all the way through and that can take some adjustment. The Radics have a super smooth lever but engage almost immediately with no deadstroke. The Intends are the best of the above, moderate deadstroke, even power delivery, smooth/light lever feel, easy to identify the brake point, and good ergonomics. My preference in this category is a quick power delivery, but lighter riders or those who want a longer lever throw might place Hope or Trickstuff higher.

Aesthetics: They are all nice except the Mavens. They are the ugliest thing on my bike at the moment and I'm dying to get them off. It's very off putting for an otherwise great brake. The Trickstuff, Hope, and Intends are all beautiful in their own unique ways. 

Cockpit: The Mavens suffer from the reservoir sitting too close to the bar. This means controls may not fit where you want because it interferes with the reservoir being so damn close. Otherwise you have a lot of positioning with the lever. The Dominion and MT7 share a lot of similarities in this regard as well, but aren't super notable otherwise, you have plenty of lateral movement across the bar to position them and your controls, although I prefer hinged levers. The Hopes have a super long lever blade that might interfere, but I found that they sat so far inboard it didn't interfere with my other controls. The Radics, Intends, and Maximas all have a lever brace on the reservoir. This is a good thing that prevents flex, BUT it also means that some controls won't sit properly outboard of the clamp due to the lever brace being in the way, this is particularly noticeable on the Radics. The Maximas are generally OK in this regard, but the lever reach adjuster might conflict with controls. The Intends have one possibly fatal flaw I mentioned before: the brace position combined with the usable lever length means using long grips like Meaty Paws positions the lever so far inboard you can't reach it. I have it near slammed against my grips and it's fine, but this may be a problem for people with certain hand sizes. The Saints have a super nice, rigid feeling clamp that I wish others would adopt. The Mavens will flex slightly under heavy power, IMO they should've adopted a stronger clamp, Matchmaker just isn't it.

Install/Bleed/etc: The Intends are the cleanest bleeding brake I've used, they are super easy to bleed and install, I also like that they use a reusable fitting that rotates. The Maximas are more work due to the braided hoses, but are pretty easy if you can cut them properly, they also have instructions for aligning the hoses, which is nice. The bleed process for the Maximas is often complained about but I had no issues, I just followed the instructions and it worked out. They should include the bleed block with the brakes, it's absurd they don't. I had issues with the Hope hose kinking and twisting, but other than that it wasn't noteworthy. The Saints, MT7s, Dominions, were all easy to bleed and install, although I know some report problems with alignment on the MT7s and bleed problems, but I didn't have that issue. The Radics are easy as well once you get used to working with the braided hoses, the Bleeding Edge fitting they use is super nice. Finding Bionol in the US is a nightmare though, for those and Trickstuff. The Dominion bleed block includes a half block on one side you can use to work the pistons out safely and clean them, IMO everyone should do this. Hope provides something similar in the form of a STL file you can 3d print, but not everyone will have access to one to do this.

Value: Overall the Dominions are the best combination of everything IMO, if not the best at any one category, but for the price you get a lot of good stuff that makes them the best value IMO. The Trickstuff are a hard sell at $1200 and I think it's dumb they don't include the bleed kit, block, and especially fluid given how hard it is to find. The Intends I feel are a good value considering everything they come with and their performance, but they are hard to obtain and no doubt expensive. Hopes are kindof middling, more expensive than Dominions, but cheaper than the others and offering similar performance/feel. The problem with them is quickly finding parts if you are in the US. You can get MT7s very cheap these days, but I'd still opt for Dominions over them given the other factors. 

If you like running levers close to the bar and want a ton of power, get the Radics, there is no better option with such a short deadstroke to power point. If you want a long, linear, smooth pull with gradual power delivery, Hope T4 V4 or Maximas will get you there, with the Maximas being slightly more complicated to work on and harder to find parts for (this may be a major issue down the line and is my #1 concern with anything Trickstuff). If you want rapid power delivery, the Mavens, Radics, or Intends all fall into that category (in that order), the Mavens require more throw than the Radics but power comes on faster once the pads engage. Overall for most people I usually suggest the Dominions, they are a good average point despite not being the best at everything, they are good at everything and lack the pitfalls of some of the others. For very heavy riders, Mavens or Radics would be my choice. Lighter riders would get along better with the Hopes, Maximas, Dominions, and possibly MT7s. The Intends are a slightly more powerful, easier to work, and refined Dominion, so if you can get them and don't fall into one extreme or the other in how you want them to feel or weight range, they are amazing.

I haven't tried TRP, Beringer, or that brand that's a number (I forget what it is).

Evil96 wrote:

coming back to this, how's the pad/rotor clearance? i know it's garbage on MT7 as i own them, especially on Maxima / V4

Shinook wrote:

I never had too many issues with pad/rotor clearance on most brakes I tried.  The Intends had an issue very briefly where they'd drag the pad...

I never had too many issues with pad/rotor clearance on most brakes I tried. 

The Intends had an issue very briefly where they'd drag the pad ever so slightly, but it went away after a few rides. The MT7s were definitely trickier to align than others but I was able to largely get them drag free eventually. None of the others were really notable in that regard, alignment went fine and pad clearance was good enough. 

sprungmass wrote:

Yeah I had that rattling issue in the front. Expanding the pad retainer spring solved it and never had issues since.  Does anyone know where I...

Yeah I had that rattling issue in the front. Expanding the pad retainer spring solved it and never had issues since. 

Does anyone know where I can buy 223mm trickstuff hd rotor? I'm usually good and finding stuff but I've given up. Do they even make it anymore?

noideamtber wrote:

Shimano XT 4 pots, Galfer Ebike pads, 220 & 203 Shimano rt64 rotors on Full power ebike.. About 100kg on the pedals The ebike pads are...

Shimano XT 4 pots, Galfer Ebike pads, 220 & 203 Shimano rt64 rotors on Full power ebike.. About 100kg on the pedals
The ebike pads are a great ALT to the resin... similar power but manage the heat way better.

I've been running mavens but One got warrantied, waiting for replacement - they are so damn good but put my XT's back on and they are disappointing. (was using 200 f/r on mavens)

any tips for How to get more power from the XT's? 


 

TimBud wrote:

MT7 callipers more than any other I’ve dealt with, really need frame and adapter mounts facing… the alignment process is a lot simpler after this. I’ve...

MT7 callipers more than any other I’ve dealt with, really need frame and adapter mounts facing… the alignment process is a lot simpler after this. I’ve almost always just done it with a good hand file but still had great results. Most of the time its just to get rid of paint (looking at you Fox)

FYI you almost always get some brushing initially with Magura’s own pads until after a few rides and solid bedding in.

1llumA wrote:

 Looks likes Lewis is planning an updated version of their LH ultimate with a different caliper and thumb screw for their lever pivot adjustment.   I...

 Looks likes Lewis is planning an updated version of their LH ultimate with a different caliper and thumb screw for their lever pivot adjustment.

 

I also found in Vojo mag (french/belgian website) reviews of the Beringer and 612 brakes. Google translate should be decent from french to english but I have translated the tldr of each review.

https://www.vojomag.com/test-freins-beringer-br4ve-de-la-moto-au-velo/

Beringer wanted to create a very specific brake lever feel similar to their Moto brakes with very little dead stroke with an adjustment screw to reduce it even further (possible to hydrolock the brake via this screw). Vojo had some wandering bite point issues during their limited amount of testing. Might be worthwhile to wait for some revision/updates before buying cause they are not cheap.

https://www.vojomag.com/decouverte-612-die-bremse-les-freins-artisanaux/

Felix of 612 benchmarked his brake against the Code RSC and Trickstuff Maxima so the lever feel is relatively similar on the more progressive side of things and Vojo confirmed that feeling. Caliper is massive so people with UHMWPE spokes or other thick spoke like I9 alu spoke might have clearance issues. Vojo testing was very limited in terms of tracks steepness and time so haven't had the chance to fully push them in mid-summer alpine heat and length of tracks but they were pleased with their performance in mellower terrain with 180mm rotor.

Evil96 wrote:

So we can pay a grand, for a brake set with 0 information about it on their website, that does what shimano does? ( shitty brake...

So we can pay a grand, for a brake set with 0 information about it on their website, that does what shimano does? ( shitty brake point?) 

Damn a good start

ill have a read about the 612, those are interesting 

1llumA wrote:

There is a seperate website for the Beringer MTB: https://www.ride-beringer.com/en/ I think they are mostly courting clients that already have Beringer brakes on their moto and...

There is a seperate website for the Beringer MTB:

https://www.ride-beringer.com/en/

I think they are mostly courting clients that already have Beringer brakes on their moto and are looking for that same specific brake lever feel on their MTB or E-MTB.

jalopyj wrote:

Has anyone run aftermarket rotors with their Hayes Dominion brakes? I called their tech center, and they recommend sticking with rotors that are 1.95mm (2mm at...

Has anyone run aftermarket rotors with their Hayes Dominion brakes?

I called their tech center, and they recommend sticking with rotors that are 1.95mm (2mm at most) or narrower due to piston retraction.

Vital review got me curious about the Trickstuff Dachle rotors, especially since they're a surprisingly a decent value, but they are 2.05mm wide.