First of all, I get that a lot of ad folks are probably not mountain bikers. They're using a toolbox based on things that they think has worked in the past, not necessarily what will work best in this community.
Second, their job is to sell products. Building a community where new people feel welcome is probably not on their priority list.
Third, as mountain bikers, we have collectively shown that stuff like the old Marzocchi posters and calendars (that were on the walls of service departments I managed) was not only acceptable but preferred.
I'm saying all of this in hopes that we can talk about the bigger impacts of the homepage covered in what looks like an underwear ad for young women. I would actually not have an issue if it were an underwear ad. I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with it if it were aimed at women riders. Instead, it uses the attention grab of those butts, not in riding shorts, just underwear, to sell products to an overwhelmingly male audience.
Now, I'm a White Latino man in his 50s. I've never had anyone question my place in the cycling community at a trailhead, or in the parking lot. No one has doubted my ability to understand my bike, or assume that I was only doing this because of a significant other. Most of the female mountain bikers I know can't say the same. These are great riders, solid mechanics, cyclists who have every bit as much right to respect as me.
On the same homepage as this ad, there are videos of Tahnee Seagrave and Samantha Soriano ripping the ever-loving shit outta their bikes. Maybe advertisers (and bike outlets like Vital) should be focusing on making sure that in the future more people like them will feel comfortable in our sport.
So hit me up. I'll host a Zoom discussion for anyone interested in expressing their views, and I will have some activities that can help us address the misogyny in mountain biking.
I login to Instagram to view my fav riders, Lots of the female ones who are advertising stuff are ALWAYS facing away from the camera with the main point being their "ass"
While im not worried how they promote their products, theres always two faces from said advertiser: "dont sexualise me" while proceeding to fill my feed with their body parts on show.
double standards are a big issue in Advertising - I, however dont really care, just scroll past most of that stuff anyway.
Looks like there's all sorts of butts in there, Bozo, get lost.
And if there were male butts in those photos, joke's on me, because it really, really, really doesn't look like that on the homepage. Maybe me assuming they're all female butts is some sort of Inception-level sexism inside sexism within sexism that I need to deal with in myself. But it seems like most people, male or not, are going to assume those are female butts staring at them when they land on the Vital homepage.
Thanks for bringing this up, I'm hoping we can have a productive discussion and it doesn't devolve into "doesn't bother me/get over it/other industries do it too" etc.
I don't know how much control Vital has over what ads they show but I gotta think they have the ability to push back a bit even they they can't afford to flat-out refuse a full homepage campaign. Hopefully someone who knows will chime in w/ a bit more detail.
Edit: Here's SQ Labs contact form: https://sqlab-usa.com/pages/contact-us
Thanks for the contact link at SQ Labs. Hadn't thought of that. Message sent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nquh2lM75X8&t=71s
Watch the YouTube video, half are men and half women. They are making an ad for seats and guess what sits on seats? None of the models are showing more than what you would see at the beach. Not sure why people need to be outraged by stuff like this especially without doing 20 seconds of research.
i pushed back against it. i didn't (don't) want it on the site and was over-ruled.
I've used their saddles, I've used their chamois/Bib, i've met a few people from this brand, all thumbs up in my experience. But, today seeing the takeover and little icons of g-string/etc asses all over my home page, it wasn't for me, especially as some of you said about a day when 2 incredible women riders dropped some great videos....I guess it's even more ironic the banner ad on the side of this forum topic is a kid selling overalls lol
Thank you for trying.
YouTube video provides context the other ads lack. Not that it isn’t going to be a little offensive to some but it’s at least got a bit of humor and includes women other than their posterior. I’m not offended by any of it really but i had the same reaction thinking the banner ad was inappropriate and lame.
Yup I agree, I honestly thought that ad was just some banner for wish.com or banggood.....not an actual mtb company. It was pretty hard to tell it had anything to do with bikes? Poor judgement went on here IMO
It's 4 women and 4 men. The issue may be that Americans are prudes?.
I don't think it is particularly offensive or in poor taste, just not great marketing: There is no way I'm opening Vital at work (open space) while that ad pops up on my screen, and there is absolutely no way I would click on it.
Yeah this popping work is a real problem, and unappreciated.
Also, while everyone raves about the SQlab as a company, my experience is that their products have terrible QC and finishing quality, and customer service was poor when I had to return a brand new saddle which came completely warped from the factory.
Any women willing to weigh in here? I just showed my (mtn biker) girlfriend the ad. Her response was "those were the best butts they could get?", laughed and walked away. She was not in the least bit offended.
I predict a lot of typing, talking and hand waving with no real change. Perhaps talking about it makes us feel better? This seems like a silly use of time, especially if your goal is to actually get more women riding. This won't move the needle (at all).
Oh, and to those suggesting this isn't workplace safe, I'd stop using the internet full stop in that case (or run an ad block). I see far more egregious ads (or in some cases, news stories) in far safer places. Hell, Apple News this morning presented me with a story about the "downsides of 69" (not joking).
american taliban or what? i thought this is america! freedum!
wow you guys are some SQ-uares indeed! Gnarly stance to take on a pretty tame ad, one that even saw your righteous outrage coming and pre-empted you by putting manbutt blockers in there. Does this all jive with your stances on God Squad DHers, transphobic stage dad/TMs, and cowboy stars'n'stripes family values vloggers? How are you going to make it all work out? You're doomed! You cannot possibly have the energy required to be angry about this.
The biggest gripe I have with this campaign is the domme / toadie character tropes...pretty cornball, but it's Germans...and it's bike seats, so what are you gonna do?
Risqué for Nana, maybe...
And you're writing letters??? Dude whaaaaaaaaaaat come on now is this a bit?
Good call in, Jeff.
n=1, I talked to my wife about this yesterday before I wrote the original post. For context: she's a casual rider, married a bike mechanic 21 years ago, is a certified Sex, Love, and Relationship coach with a focus on somatic therapy, who works with women of many different experiences and backgrounds. Oh, and she has a degree in marketing/communications, and spent a couple of decades working in that field. She felt that this ad was, at best, marginally off-putting. The fact that bike media has for so long put women into the status of décor rather than participants was the problem she had.
And that's what prompted me to bring this ad up for discussion- on it's own, this ad isn't that bad. But as a friend told me, if your defense of something is that it "isn't that bad" then it probably isn't good. When we're talking about creating a place where we're welcoming underrepresented groups, (namely anyone who isn't a white, cisgender, hetero man) we have to take a look at how the sport is seen from those outside perspectives.
I'm not personally offended by the ad itself. I've had enough conversations with women I've worked with in the industry, ridden with, built trails with, and coached. Those conversations often include anecdotes of these women facing resistance to their participation in cycling, especially mountain biking. I think that we can set our individual comfortability with the status quo aside and make some room for others.
So, is the perception of all women models and the appropriateness of the ad for selling underwear ON a bike site the main issue? If the ad featured 100% male or trans individuals, would you be okay with it? What about 75% male/trans? Clearly, 50% doesn't seem right. It's odd that your wife, who worked in marketing, doesn't see the value in something that grabs attention. It's quite common for people to say, 'Ah, I got tricked by this!' Getting everyone to realize that their assumption (pun intended) was wrong and that it's not solely about objectifying women is the point.
Take this Deck ad, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6c4Nupnup0
Look, we are all talking about it. It worked. By showcasing underwear and including half men intentionally, it provided more attention than your average 'picture of a bike seat.' Obviously, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. For instance, the old Marzocchi stuff mentioned earlier involving Jenna Jameson was a bit much, but this ad is so mild in comparison that it seems silly to even discuss it. By the way, where should the line be drawn? Burkas? Joking obviously.
Charlie @TEAMROBOT and everyone else who is upset by this should ask themselves why they assumed it was all women. "Maybe my assumption that they're all female butts is some sort of Inception-level sexism within sexism within sexism that I need to address within myself."
I asked my girlfriend, who works in marketing, what she thought about this. She laughed and asked what was so concerning that people were writing letters to the company...
Edit: Fixed a typo I saw right after posting.
Could you clarify your first paragraph? As far as the attention-grabber as, that's considered massively outdated strategy. Not sure what level your girlfriend works at, but from a strategic perspective this type of ad is likely to miss the mark.
What I think you might be missing is that this specific ad isn't necessarily the problem. And it certainly isn't about models being objectified. Reread what @TEAMROBOT said. Our sport has a long history of sexism that could use some active correction, not a wink-and-a-nod advertisement.
Let me go back and reiterate a point that seems to be getting missed: the problem is not that individual women are objectified for their work as models. That's their choice, and I hope they're enjoying what they do, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The issue is first and foremost about an unwelcoming atmosphere. The not so subtle messaging to women and girls is that you don't belong on the bike, you're just here for adornment. And yes, I've talked to many women who've felt that.
"The issue is first and foremost about an unwelcoming atmosphere. The not so subtle messaging to women and girls is that you don't belong on the bike, you're just here for adornment." Bingo. I'm not rushing off to poll the audience of women in my life about this specific ad, because I've already heard this concern described over and over again from women in the sport. I'm certain this ad isn't offensive for all women or all men, but that's not really the point. The ad doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the average person isn't going to go watch the video. I didn't watch the video, and I waste an incredible of time looking at MTB content.
The irony of you asking "what level" my girlfriend is at is astounding and then mansplaining (through me) to her that she isn't doing her job right because attention grabbing ads are out is absurd. You can't be serious with this right? She is director level reporting directly to the CEO with a 20+ person team working under her...
Yes, much better to have an ad that doesn't grab attention.
To clarify my point. I agree with you, mountain biking does have a misogynistic past. I have also spoke to women cyclists who have expressed it as well. That shouldn't mean we have to overcorrect though and allow nothing even slightly offensive to anyone ever except straight white men. I don't agree this was something the rises to the level of writing to the company to complain that Vital isn't a safe enough space now because of their ad.
Women and Girls should not feel they are barred from riding and it's great to see more of them than ever at the trailhead.
Men and Women in underware for a seat ad may be unwelcoming to some but that's true about everything. We can't win 100% with an ad. How many ads featuring photos taken on Native Peoples land have an acknowledgment? Have the people writing letters to SQ about butts also complained to companies about that? It will always upset at least one person and in my opinion (and GFs in that case of this ad) the outrage culture that has developed has swung the pendulum too far.
This you?
https://theteamrobot.blogspot.com/2012/09/thats-not-funny.html
More irony.
"The irony of you asking "what level" my girlfriend is at is astounding and then mansplaining (through me) to her that she isn't doing her job right because attention grabbing ads are out is absurd. You can't be serious with this right? She is director level reporting directly to the CEO with a 20+ person team working under her...
Yes, much better to have an ad that doesn't grab attention. "
Two things- first, the question about level and the comment about attention grabbing were from my wife- I spent 26 years of my life turning wrenches on bikes, not running marketing campaigns.
And the question is not about her role in whatever organization she works for, but about what level of marketing she works in, i,e. strategy vs ad creation, ad agency vs working in a marketing department of a non-marketing company.. Very different perspectives.
Second, even I know that attention doesn't mean much without engagement and retention.
If you're the same person you were 11 years ago, I kinda feel bad for you.
Fair enough if she said that not you, it wasn't clear from your post. Not going to proxy argue ad strategy with you further as it doesn't seem like we will get anywhere and you ignored the rest of my post.
"If you're the same person you were 11 years ago, I kinda feel bad for you."
He gets a pass because he is on my side! It was in the past! He has changed so it's ok! - Losfier.
Here is another TEAMROBOT gem: 'If your biggest cassette cog is bigger than your chainring, you're probably already racing in the women's class. If you're not racing in the women's class, that could be a great way to finally get that top ten finish you've always wanted.'
He was an adult (I'm pretty sure?) then and is responsible for his words and actions. He can also answer for himself. The irony of his racist and misogynistic post being about underware of all things was too much not to post.
I could have made the marketing opinion more clear- my only experience or knowledge is from the retail side of things, which is pretty much useless. And you're right, I should have addressed the rest of your post.
"To clarify my point. I agree with you, mountain biking does have a misogynistic past. I have also spoke to women cyclists who have expressed it as well. That shouldn't mean we have to overcorrect though and allow nothing even slightly offensive to anyone ever except straight white men."
I'm not asking anyone to overcorrect, I'm asking all of us to think about how we show up, and why companies continue to cater to the straight white men that are the vast majority of mountain bikers.
You bring up a great point about photo shoots and shredits happening on unacknowledged, unceded Indigenous land. That's an issue that I don't feel well informed enough to speak too much about. I invite you to start a thread to start talking about it, though.
"He was an adult (I'm pretty sure?) then and is responsible for his words and actions. He can also answer for himself. The irony of his racist and misogynistic post being about underware (sic) of all things was too much not to post."
Solid point. Not my words, and I have no place to defend them. However, I can say that I have grown and changed a lot over the last 11 years. I've fucked up many, many times and have become better afterwards. To bring it back to relevance, this is not about a snarky, satirical blog from more than a decade ago. It's about how companies continue to perpetuate a vibe that is unwelcoming to half the population.
Pretty much agree with all this. Risque advertising would also target non-white straight men and lesbians though! Yes yes, I realize this is a much smaller demo.
"why companies continue to cater to the straight white men that are the vast majority of mountain bikers." Well you answered your own question here.
Appreciate your candor and openness to engage someone with a different view. Cheers!
Yeah, wow, guilty as charged. Those posts look reeeeeally bad to my eyes now, but I definitely wrote that, so apparently it seemed like a great idea at the time. I cannot believe I posted those as an adult and as a sponsored athlete. If I could take back those words, I would. I apologize for my retrograde asshole opinions and for probably making other people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome in our sport.
Having been on both sides of this issue, I feel pretty strongly that we should (politely) look out for retrograde asshole opinions that make people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I'd like our sport to be welcoming to as many people as possible. I wish someone had said something like that to me 11 years ago.
I saw the ad on another site and though nothing of it. It seemed pretty clear there was mix of male and female butts. Coming here confirmed that. I would say the biggest issue with the ad was it didn’t make me want to go check their saddles. But then I am not sure what ad would make me go check out a companies saddles.
Post a reply to: SQ Labs panties? Can't we do better with MTB advertising?