MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Tanner_Carl
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Tanner_Carl 10/6/2022 10:29am
10/6/2022 10:29am
marylanduro wrote:
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
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marylanduro
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marylanduro 10/6/2022 10:35am
10/6/2022 10:35am
marylanduro wrote:
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
Tanner_Carl wrote:
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
I hope so. I'm in the market for a big S bike/frame in the next 6 months but don't wanna buy if something better is coming.

On note of suspicious Spesh stuff; Enduro frames are the same for S-Works and 'normal' carbon price wise and have been for a bit...
nskerb
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nskerb 10/6/2022 11:04am
10/6/2022 11:04am
marylanduro wrote:
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
Tanner_Carl wrote:
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic geometry discovery is made that impacts the entire bicycle world lol.
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Eoin
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Eoin 10/6/2022 11:40am
10/6/2022 11:40am
Damn those prices are nice, would definitely pick up a Levo if I lived in the US, no price drop for EU.

The bike that needs the biggest update is the kenevo. Every other bike in their range is class leading, then the kenevo is sitting in the corner on this weird cheapo build that costs a fortune despite tiny batteries.
Primoz
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Primoz 10/6/2022 12:09pm
10/6/2022 12:09pm
marylanduro wrote:
Specialized having a 'flash' sale on some models including Stumpy Evo + Turbo Kenovo.

New Stumpy Evo soon? Or new Enduro?
Tanner_Carl wrote:
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's...
If you ask me, a new Enduro is more likely than a new stumpy evo. I think the Enduro frame has 1 more season under it's belt, compared to the SJEVO?
nskerb wrote:
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic...
Beyond durability upgrades (thicker layup near the BB/DT junction) I see no reason for the SJEvo to change in the next 5 years unless some drastic geometry discovery is made that impacts the entire bicycle world lol.
You don't see a reason, but the marketing team, shops and so on definitely see a reason. It has to be new to sell!!!
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Eoin
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Eoin 10/6/2022 12:36pm
10/6/2022 12:36pm
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
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brash
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brash 10/6/2022 2:07pm
10/6/2022 2:07pm
50-60Nm is the sweet spot I think. That is basically equivalent to trail mode on an EP8/E8000 motor. Will be more than adequate for the steepest of hills and have a decent range. Couple that with a 450-500Wh battery any you can do 1200-1400m of vert depending on body weight.

Keep it around 20kg and you will have a good thing.

Ironically, this is what the first gen of eebs were, external battery (read lighter, but ugly as sin) around 22kg, E8000 motors with 500Wh batteries. They were great.

I'm really interested to see what that new Transition relay is like, that ticks all my boxes.
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Seagrave7
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Seagrave7 10/6/2022 10:17pm
10/6/2022 10:17pm
marylanduro wrote:
Was refreshing the page and saw they dropped this RockShox-only Stumpy Evo. Pretty slick for the price.
Kusa wrote:
There is also new non Evo LTD with Float X. Looks pretty sick.
Non evo rear triangle with float x and a fox 36…………..

https://assets.specialized.com/i/specialized/93322-32_SJ-SW-LTD-OAKGRN-…
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jofish 10/7/2022 4:38am
10/7/2022 4:38am
metadave wrote:
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up...
Not going to go off on headset routing like I have before, but an experience this week, it took two people to push a fork up through the brake hoses while trying to also keep the hoses from twisting around the steerer or each other while also not having enough room to see down through it all. Most companies have not left enough room for the hoses to flex properly around the steerer or through the top cap so you often end up with resistance when turning as it's rubbing somewhere.... For no perceivable advantage until you hit 45km/h on smooth surfaces.
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of tooling and layup. It looks like an awkward angle to slide the tool out. If you can hand off all of that additional cost to the headset manufacturers, claim some marginal benefit and get cleaner looking frames in the process then it’s a no brainer.
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Sir HC 10/7/2022 5:29am
10/7/2022 5:29am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
Underpowered when comparing them to a full fat. But for those which just want a bit of assistance and only a small weight penalty, they are perfect. I hated my full fat eeb, felt clumsy and dead, kenevo sl feels like a normal bike to ride and jump.
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Erwan_Ghesquiere 10/7/2022 7:44am
10/7/2022 7:44am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still don't get this market and who is buying them tho. All my friends that ride eBikes want big motors and batteries to be able to do a lot more than on their bikes. Having one of these also cuts you from any sort of racing as they are too small to do a eBike Enduro race and are not allowed on normal enduro races. Lapierre take on it was actually interesting as it allowed you to be run as a bike and as an eBike so you actually had one bike to do it all.
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pinkrobe
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pinkrobe 10/7/2022 8:21am
10/7/2022 8:21am
jofish wrote:
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of...
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of tooling and layup. It looks like an awkward angle to slide the tool out. If you can hand off all of that additional cost to the headset manufacturers, claim some marginal benefit and get cleaner looking frames in the process then it’s a no brainer.
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to build the frame without an alloy BB shell bonded in. Other ways to save money include push-to-fit cable ports instead of bolted-in versions (looking at you, Giant).
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Primoz
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Primoz 10/7/2022 8:22am
10/7/2022 8:22am
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of help.

Like mentioned, the full fat ebikes are cumbersome, the SL variants are actually riding like a bike.
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jofish 10/7/2022 8:33am
10/7/2022 8:33am
pinkrobe wrote:
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to...
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to build the frame without an alloy BB shell bonded in. Other ways to save money include push-to-fit cable ports instead of bolted-in versions (looking at you, Giant).
Well it certainly seems like cabled headsets are on track to reach the same dizzying heights of success and popularity that pf bb’s did.
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Erwan_Ghesquiere 10/7/2022 8:53am
10/7/2022 8:53am
Primoz wrote:
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of...
People who want a bike and want to go on group bike rides but have an issue with fitness or speed and need a bit of help.

Like mentioned, the full fat ebikes are cumbersome, the SL variants are actually riding like a bike.
I got to try several eBike and never really found them cumbersome, if anything they tend to work even better than normal enduro bikes when pointed down chunky stuff and with proper geo those are absolute weapons from what I tried.
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Primoz
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Primoz 10/7/2022 9:07am
10/7/2022 9:07am
A Turbo Levo SL rides like a bike. An aluminium Bosch equipped e-bike (Focus Jam) was like a freight train. If it was at least a bit steep, you had to be thinking about your braking miles in advance and braking and/or tying to stop dominated the riding experience. Not particularly pleasant. Add to that a much higher weight and tiring you out a lot more throwing it around...

I'll stick to bikes, thanks.
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sethimus
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sethimus 10/7/2022 9:29am
10/7/2022 9:29am
Eoin wrote:
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of...
I recently looked at what turbo levos were selling for second hand in my area. I found a handful of ads for them, but dozens of levo SLs. I think spesh got left behind after basically inventing the lightweight ebike.

From the reviews I read (hard to find non-paid-for ones) it seems the levo/kenevo SL are quite underpowered at roughly 1/3 of the power of a full ebike, fazua and TQ seem to be around half the power, and Orbea rise seems to be way ahead of the pack with 2/3 of the power (mostly going off torque, but some reviews are fairly clear that the TQ and fazua are not as powerful as the Shimano RS despite all being labelled as 60Nm).

So yeah a new motor and bigger 400-500Wh batteries would be sweet if they can keep the weight and slender look of the bikes.
Erwan_Ghesquiere wrote:
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still...
That would be Lapierre that invented the lightweight eBike, Spé came out after and so did all the others currently playing on that market. I still don't get this market and who is buying them tho. All my friends that ride eBikes want big motors and batteries to be able to do a lot more than on their bikes. Having one of these also cuts you from any sort of racing as they are too small to do a eBike Enduro race and are not allowed on normal enduro races. Lapierre take on it was actually interesting as it allowed you to be run as a bike and as an eBike so you actually had one bike to do it all.
i do high alpine stuff with my rise and have a bike that still feels nimble on the way down
metadave
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metadave 10/7/2022 10:24am
10/7/2022 10:24am
I think the issue with fullsize ebikes is less when your coming down and more going up. You can't manipulate the bike as much and pop the rear end around like you can a regular bike, where an SL you can still get it around
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pinkrobe
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pinkrobe 10/7/2022 6:40pm
10/7/2022 6:40pm
metadave wrote:
I think the issue with fullsize ebikes is less when your coming down and more going up. You can't manipulate the bike as much and pop...
I think the issue with fullsize ebikes is less when your coming down and more going up. You can't manipulate the bike as much and pop the rear end around like you can a regular bike, where an SL you can still get it around
Naw, full-size eebs just open up line choice. That tangle of roots and rocks? Uphill double. Tight corner? Pin it and open your line. Berm with chunder in the normal climb track? Rail it high. That 50lbs sled is a party on the climbs...
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mfoga
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mfoga 10/7/2022 9:06pm
10/7/2022 9:06pm
I don’t see how anyone can say ebike weight is not a issue even coming down. Must not have rode old DH bikes when mid 40s was totally normal. Getting a light DH bike sub 40 was a game changer. If you want the bike to pilot you down the hill then yes heavy bikes are great but if you want to control it then I’ll take a lighter bike all day.
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sethimus
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sethimus 10/7/2022 9:37pm
10/7/2022 9:37pm
especially with the weight up high with 750wh+ batteries
Primoz
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Primoz 10/7/2022 11:25pm
10/7/2022 11:25pm
jofish wrote:
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of...
I think the perceivable advantage is the brand’s margin. **Not an expert** but I bet moulding those cable inlets is particularly tricky both in terms of tooling and layup. It looks like an awkward angle to slide the tool out. If you can hand off all of that additional cost to the headset manufacturers, claim some marginal benefit and get cleaner looking frames in the process then it’s a no brainer.
pinkrobe wrote:
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to...
Reduced frame production costs were part of the reason that we got PF BBs in a lot of carbon frames. It was easier/cheaper (and lighter) to build the frame without an alloy BB shell bonded in. Other ways to save money include push-to-fit cable ports instead of bolted-in versions (looking at you, Giant).
The things is, done right (biiiiig caveat here, I admit), PF BBs are actually a good, even a better solution than threaded BBs.
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Sven_Claas 10/8/2022 12:23am
10/8/2022 12:23am
Primoz wrote:
The things is, done right (biiiiig caveat here, I admit), PF BBs are actually a good, even a better solution than threaded BBs.
True, but if you know your QC dep isn't up to snuf to make sure you're constantly doing it ''right'', perhaps it's time to be honest to yourself and steer away from opting for a PF solution for your next bike on the development table. Theory vs reality.

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baronKanon 10/8/2022 1:06am
10/8/2022 1:06am
pinkrobe wrote:
Naw, full-size eebs just open up line choice. That tangle of roots and rocks? Uphill double. Tight corner? Pin it and open your line. Berm with...
Naw, full-size eebs just open up line choice. That tangle of roots and rocks? Uphill double. Tight corner? Pin it and open your line. Berm with chunder in the normal climb track? Rail it high. That 50lbs sled is a party on the climbs...
WTF is an eeb?
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Banana Hammock 10/8/2022 1:41am
10/8/2022 1:41am
mfoga wrote:
I don’t see how anyone can say ebike weight is not a issue even coming down. Must not have rode old DH bikes when mid 40s...
I don’t see how anyone can say ebike weight is not a issue even coming down. Must not have rode old DH bikes when mid 40s was totally normal. Getting a light DH bike sub 40 was a game changer. If you want the bike to pilot you down the hill then yes heavy bikes are great but if you want to control it then I’ll take a lighter bike all day.
Yeah, I mean you just have to watch the videos of the likes of Reece, Bernard & Brendan absolutely tearing the wheels of their ebikes to realise it’s definitely the big, heavy, cumbersome bike that’s really limiting their ability to ride & have fun.

It’s 100% not the person on top, for sure.

FWIW, having had full power ebikes, an SL Kenevo & back to full power they all have their place. I think the KSL is a great in between bike, for those who arn’f fit enough to hang with a bunch of fit riders, those who want to take the edge off when riding a lot, or even if it’s your only bike (risky, with reliability!). Full powers are also great, because I can go out at lunch & do 1000m of descending on 6-7 trails in just over an hour.

Does it demand a little different riding, yeah, braking a bit earlier, but otherwise its pretty much just a bike. I’m not sure thats any different from having a slightly higher ‘total system’ weight if you include the rider. Does the 95kg guy have to brake earlier than the 80kg guy? Is it less fun for him to ride as he’s 15kg heavier?

In short, ebikes are great, SL or full power, normal bikes are also great.
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lickmycrinkle
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lickmycrinkle 10/8/2022 2:53am
10/8/2022 2:53am
Can you take the eeb discussion to the "I'm a lazy shit, but exactly how much of a lazy shit?" thread?
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Erwan_Ghesquiere 10/8/2022 3:10am
10/8/2022 3:10am
mfoga wrote:
I don’t see how anyone can say ebike weight is not a issue even coming down. Must not have rode old DH bikes when mid 40s...
I don’t see how anyone can say ebike weight is not a issue even coming down. Must not have rode old DH bikes when mid 40s was totally normal. Getting a light DH bike sub 40 was a game changer. If you want the bike to pilot you down the hill then yes heavy bikes are great but if you want to control it then I’ll take a lighter bike all day.
Those bikes were terrible because mass was everywhere on the bike, geo was lethal and suspension was more like a floor pump than suspension. With the first gen Session 88 lads had bikes below 15kg and those weren't good as light bikes are twitchy. Having some weight in the right places (main frame, low) makes your bike ride much better in the gnar without much drawbacks, helps with stability, helps with suspension. The braking thing is vastly overblown it isn't worse than for a chap that is 7/8kg extra than you are, if you are normally sized it still remains in the realm of normal. But I guess it wouldn't be consistent to be advocating for bikes with 66HA and short travel while appreciating the extra capabilities an eBike offers in the downs. Different market shares, uses and priorities.
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cleansocks
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cleansocks 10/8/2022 6:40am
10/8/2022 6:40am
Take the e-bike argument elsewhere. It's detracting from this thread.
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dolface
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dolface 10/8/2022 6:53am
10/8/2022 6:53am
Any more news/sightings of that Ti Darco from Chromag? I'm in the market for a new bike and that one looks like it'll be on my short-list...
1
metadave
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metadave 10/8/2022 8:58am
10/8/2022 8:58am
dolface wrote:
Any more news/sightings of that Ti Darco from Chromag? I'm in the market for a new bike and that one looks like it'll be on my...
Any more news/sightings of that Ti Darco from Chromag? I'm in the market for a new bike and that one looks like it'll be on my short-list...
Not sure the ti was anything but a special/limited edition, but the regular darco should pop it's head up soon it suspect along with the other one.....
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