No Vaccine, No Lourdes World Cup for Racers?

ghirox
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4
Joined
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Location
IT
1/21/2022 3:27am
mamath7 wrote:
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of...
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of the time it sucks.
ghirox wrote:
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines. In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives? Taking for granted that...
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines.
In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives?
Taking for granted that the data from our government are correct, in Italy we have the same number of daily covid deaths in 2022 (with a whopping 85-90% of the adult population vaxxed) as we had last year, at the beginning of the vaccination campaign. On the other hand, look at Japan: very low vaccination rates yet very few deaths.
And it's the same in India and most of Africa.
JoseMPM wrote:
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this...
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this same thread.

But here you come with your baseless claims with no data or anything to prove them, other than having listened to them from Joe Rogan, Alex Jones or some top secret dude on Facebook.
I don't remember mentioning Joe Rogan and I don't even know who Alex Jones is.

Data on daily covid deaths in Italy can be easily verified on worldometer.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

All covid related data for each country can be verified here:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Look at data from most African countries and from India and see for yourself: compare deaths per million inhabitants statistics to those of most European countries.

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10
1/21/2022 4:25am
ghirox wrote:
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines. In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives? Taking for granted that...
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines.
In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives?
Taking for granted that the data from our government are correct, in Italy we have the same number of daily covid deaths in 2022 (with a whopping 85-90% of the adult population vaxxed) as we had last year, at the beginning of the vaccination campaign. On the other hand, look at Japan: very low vaccination rates yet very few deaths.
And it's the same in India and most of Africa.
JoseMPM wrote:
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this...
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this same thread.

But here you come with your baseless claims with no data or anything to prove them, other than having listened to them from Joe Rogan, Alex Jones or some top secret dude on Facebook.
ghirox wrote:
I don't remember mentioning Joe Rogan and I don't even know who Alex Jones is. Data on daily covid deaths in Italy can be easily verified...
I don't remember mentioning Joe Rogan and I don't even know who Alex Jones is.

Data on daily covid deaths in Italy can be easily verified on worldometer.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

All covid related data for each country can be verified here:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Look at data from most African countries and from India and see for yourself: compare deaths per million inhabitants statistics to those of most European countries.

Are you dumb?

If you look on your own link to the statistics of Italy you will see that you are having 100-200k daily cases since December and 200-350 daily deaths related to that number of cases.
One year ago (Nov.-Dec. 2020) before the vaccination you had 20-35k daily cases and 550-800 daily deaths related to that cases.
And this is data from the link you posted...
So after vaccination and with less restrictions on day-to-day life today you have 3-5x the cases and less of half daily deaths related to that.
I dont know how you can show more clearly the efficacy of vaccination...

Like JoseMPM said, there is countless literature out there proving vaccination is safe (also safer than getting COVID) and effective.
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Primoz
Posts
4554
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/21/2022 4:59am
mamath7 wrote:
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of...
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of the time it sucks.
ghirox wrote:
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines. In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives? Taking for granted that...
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines.
In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives?
Taking for granted that the data from our government are correct, in Italy we have the same number of daily covid deaths in 2022 (with a whopping 85-90% of the adult population vaxxed) as we had last year, at the beginning of the vaccination campaign. On the other hand, look at Japan: very low vaccination rates yet very few deaths.
And it's the same in India and most of Africa.
Um... Sorry to poke holes, but...


https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
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1
Primoz
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4554
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Location
SI
1/21/2022 5:32am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 5:32am
JoseMPM wrote:
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this...
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this same thread.

But here you come with your baseless claims with no data or anything to prove them, other than having listened to them from Joe Rogan, Alex Jones or some top secret dude on Facebook.
ghirox wrote:
I don't remember mentioning Joe Rogan and I don't even know who Alex Jones is. Data on daily covid deaths in Italy can be easily verified...
I don't remember mentioning Joe Rogan and I don't even know who Alex Jones is.

Data on daily covid deaths in Italy can be easily verified on worldometer.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

All covid related data for each country can be verified here:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Look at data from most African countries and from India and see for yourself: compare deaths per million inhabitants statistics to those of most European countries.

Are you dumb? If you look on your own link to the statistics of Italy you will see that you are having 100-200k daily cases since...
Are you dumb?

If you look on your own link to the statistics of Italy you will see that you are having 100-200k daily cases since December and 200-350 daily deaths related to that number of cases.
One year ago (Nov.-Dec. 2020) before the vaccination you had 20-35k daily cases and 550-800 daily deaths related to that cases.
And this is data from the link you posted...
So after vaccination and with less restrictions on day-to-day life today you have 3-5x the cases and less of half daily deaths related to that.
I dont know how you can show more clearly the efficacy of vaccination...

Like JoseMPM said, there is countless literature out there proving vaccination is safe (also safer than getting COVID) and effective.
I think (or given what I've heard/read/etc.) a lot of the higher case numbers, lover deaths can actually be contributed to Omicron, at least more to omicron than to vaccines.

Vaccinations appear to be quite ineffective against contracting the illness, though they do appear to still prevent a bad outcome, so there is a factor in vaccines there, but the overall lower mortality rate (apparently) of Omicron has a role here too.

That's why I initially wrote that I think a lot of restrictions will be easing up towards spring, as it's needed less and less.

I expect a lot of restrictions to be removed by April here in Slovenia, as we have parliament elections on 28th of April and the ruling party (our Marshal Twito, Janša) needs to gain some political points with which they can make themselves look good.
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ssk
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drifting around, TX US
1/21/2022 6:13am
I'll dive into this pile of BS thread head first for 1 post.

I get to see people die at work from covid everyday, I haven't seen one vaccinated person die in the last 2 months

If you want to control covid in order prevent the most deaths you have 2 options, vax and masking or super strict lockdowns and masking.

In the US, the only way to get people to vax at a much higher rate will be for health insurance companies to refuse to pay covid related treatment costs for those that choose not to be vaccinated.
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2
derelict
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Location
Northern of, VA US
1/21/2022 6:29am
ssk wrote:
I'll dive into this pile of BS thread head first for 1 post. I get to see people die at work from covid everyday, I haven't...
I'll dive into this pile of BS thread head first for 1 post.

I get to see people die at work from covid everyday, I haven't seen one vaccinated person die in the last 2 months

If you want to control covid in order prevent the most deaths you have 2 options, vax and masking or super strict lockdowns and masking.

In the US, the only way to get people to vax at a much higher rate will be for health insurance companies to refuse to pay covid related treatment costs for those that choose not to be vaccinated.
That last thing is coming. Just wait. Health insurance will pick it up. They will only be willing to provide free tests and masks for so long before telling the government 'no'. They do it obesity and other things.


The argument about "liberty" is a weak one. The nation was founded on the ideas of liberty. But people frequently forget about the next part, which is license and social contract. You may have the ability to do something but you do not always have the right to do it. If it affects one, it affects all. These are John Locke founding principles and if you read him, the "founders" basically plagiarized his stuff into our Constitution.

It is hilariously sad that a massive health issue became a political issue. It makes sense though, seeing that the two party system needs to find ways to demonstrably separate us into two fictitious groups through fear in order for them to maintain power. Washington saw it coming and warned about it in his farewell address. So did Madison in Federalist 10. The spirit of POS Joe McCarthy lives on...
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1/21/2022 7:01am
Primoz wrote:
I think (or given what I've heard/read/etc.) a lot of the higher case numbers, lover deaths can actually be contributed to Omicron, at least more to...
I think (or given what I've heard/read/etc.) a lot of the higher case numbers, lover deaths can actually be contributed to Omicron, at least more to omicron than to vaccines.

Vaccinations appear to be quite ineffective against contracting the illness, though they do appear to still prevent a bad outcome, so there is a factor in vaccines there, but the overall lower mortality rate (apparently) of Omicron has a role here too.

That's why I initially wrote that I think a lot of restrictions will be easing up towards spring, as it's needed less and less.

I expect a lot of restrictions to be removed by April here in Slovenia, as we have parliament elections on 28th of April and the ruling party (our Marshal Twito, Janša) needs to gain some political points with which they can make themselves look good.
Nah, Omicron plays a role but vaccination plays a bigger role since the vaccines had already proven their efficacy before Omicron was the predominant variant...
1
Lil_kell35
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Location
Acworth, GA US
1/21/2022 7:13am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 7:29am
Lil_kell35 wrote:
mmmm yes, please show me just one example of when written laws that force medical action have ever resulted in an outcome that could rationally be...
mmmm yes, please show me just one example of when written laws that force medical action have ever resulted in an outcome that could rationally be considered "good."
Lucent wrote:
Cant' remember the last time there was a Polio, Tetanus, Measles, Rubella etc. global pandemic.
griz wrote:
Thanks for the facts Lucent! People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers...
Thanks for the facts Lucent!
People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers getting the polio vaccine, no shot…just a drop of liquid on a sugar cube. Speaking of measles…I’ve got to get my 2nd Shingles vaccine this month.
Fact and fair points. thank you bob for the reminders, I do suppose the only objection i have though is: "Don't those vaccines actually stop the spread?" Vs. the vaccine in question which doesn't prevent spread at all. Thank you guys for the respectful responses. Super refreshing to just talk about stuff.
bizutch
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Location
Fletcher, NC US
1/21/2022 7:20am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 7:22am
mamath7 wrote:
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of...
There is still people dumb enough to fight against a thing that saves lifes. French decision is a good one, at least this one, most of the time it sucks.
ghirox wrote:
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines. In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives? Taking for granted that...
People are fighting for freedom of choice, not against the vaccines.
In any case, is there evidence that these drugs save lives?
Taking for granted that the data from our government are correct, in Italy we have the same number of daily covid deaths in 2022 (with a whopping 85-90% of the adult population vaxxed) as we had last year, at the beginning of the vaccination campaign. On the other hand, look at Japan: very low vaccination rates yet very few deaths.
And it's the same in India and most of Africa.
JoseMPM wrote:
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this...
Do you possess the ability to read? There are countless studies vowing for the effectivity of the vaccine, some of which have been cited in this same thread.

But here you come with your baseless claims with no data or anything to prove them, other than having listened to them from Joe Rogan, Alex Jones or some top secret dude on Facebook.
You can certainly argue that the experimental vaccine trials are effective, but when there are plenty of us with friends & relatives who have suffered severe reactions or died of their first ever heart attack 3 days after the jab, you're not winning any friends.

Quite literally saw my cousin's lower abdomen and legs and they're purple almost 6 months after his legs clotted so bad they tured to sludge 3 days after his shot.
He's had 2 surgeries and scheduled for several more.

Personally saw my brother in law's leg balloon and get to go to the hospital the day after his shot.
Personally saw the obituary of a friends uncle who died of a sudden heart attack 2 days after his shot.

A friend whose aunt and her son both passed within a month of their shots after sudden escalation of unexplained, multiple complications just...out of nowhere.
Personally spoke to the father a girl on my daughter's softball team. The girl couldn't get out of bed for 2 days from debilitating leg pains and still can't run after her jab.

I and 6-8 families in my class at church all went through Covid without having the jab and all fully recovered &; now have antibodies, T cells, B cells & a far more durable immune response to the bug than any person alive who took the shots.

And this garbage about "Oh, but my symptoms were milder because I had the shot". It is impossible to prove that because NOBODY asked our group of 30-40 people about our symptoms. So it's impossible logic.

And then of course, there is a new Columbia study indicating way more people die of the vaccines than reported:

https://www.informedchoiceaustralia.com/post/columbia-study-true-u-s-co…

And of course, Facebook deletes posts on your personal page if you link to a reporting website for vaccine side effects reporting. And FB shut down vacccine side effect support group pages.

But hey...perfectly safe.
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10
derelict
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Location
Northern of, VA US
1/21/2022 7:23am
Lucent wrote:
Cant' remember the last time there was a Polio, Tetanus, Measles, Rubella etc. global pandemic.
griz wrote:
Thanks for the facts Lucent! People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers...
Thanks for the facts Lucent!
People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers getting the polio vaccine, no shot…just a drop of liquid on a sugar cube. Speaking of measles…I’ve got to get my 2nd Shingles vaccine this month.
Lil_kell35 wrote:
Fact and fair points. thank you bob for the reminders, I do suppose the only objection i have though is: "Don't those vaccines actually stop the...
Fact and fair points. thank you bob for the reminders, I do suppose the only objection i have though is: "Don't those vaccines actually stop the spread?" Vs. the vaccine in question which doesn't prevent spread at all. Thank you guys for the respectful responses. Super refreshing to just talk about stuff.
It does not stop the spread, this is true. What is does do, however, is demonstrably reduce the risk of hospitalization and death. With the system we have, that is the best thing that we can hope for. Our health system is set up to maximize profits, and not necessarily care. American businesses have adopted the 'just in time' philosophy for logistics and when one thing drops, the rest suffers. Hence, the National Guard being activated to do everything from medical assistance in hospitals to driving school buses.
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1
Primoz
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SI
1/21/2022 7:29am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 7:37am
Nah, Omicron plays a role but vaccination plays a bigger role since the vaccines had already proven their efficacy before Omicron was the predominant variant...
But that's the key, vaccines WERE more effective with Alpha, a bit less so with Delta and even less so with the Omicron variant. How can you say 'vaccines have proven themselves with previous variants, so they are still effective', when there are studies that show that vaccinations are less effective with Omicron?

Regarding stopping spread, they still do lower the infection rates even with Omicron, so it's not all bad. Though with the infection rates and the demand on hospitals we're seeing currently, I think it does seem like a question of when, not if the pandemic will be over.

Regarding these horror stories from vaccinated people, where are you people living, what are you doing, what are you eating and what kind of vaccines are you taking? Just as anecdotal, I know of 0 people that had any serious side effects from any of the vaccines (AZ, Johnson, Moderna, Pfizer). And I know about quite a few people that have had and still have problems from contracting COVID.

Are all these people with problems that 'people know personally' just Facebook stories or what? Or just fearmongering? Honestly asking as I fail to see all these issues.

And impossible to prove the difference in symptoms? What about the number of vaccinated vs. the number of unvaccinated people in hospitals? Is that not _LITERALLY_ a direct comparison in the severity of symptoms between being vaccinated and not vaccinated (it's now about 50:50 between vaccinated and unvaccinated when it comes to positive cases due to Omicron here in Slovenia, but the ratio still greatly favours the vaccinated when it comes to hospitalisations).
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1/21/2022 7:31am
Requiring the vac is the wrong narrative and is wearing me out. It's not asking the actual question that matters. The real question should be, show me your positive antibody test. People who have had C-19 have much higher antibodies than people who get the vac and are more likely to have a negative effect from getting the vac. If I had recently had C-19 there is no way in hell I would get the vac.
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3
Lil_kell35
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Location
Acworth, GA US
1/21/2022 7:37am
griz wrote:
Thanks for the facts Lucent! People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers...
Thanks for the facts Lucent!
People seem to forget that their children must have certain vaccines to attend public school, in the US. My Dad remembers getting the polio vaccine, no shot…just a drop of liquid on a sugar cube. Speaking of measles…I’ve got to get my 2nd Shingles vaccine this month.
Lil_kell35 wrote:
Fact and fair points. thank you bob for the reminders, I do suppose the only objection i have though is: "Don't those vaccines actually stop the...
Fact and fair points. thank you bob for the reminders, I do suppose the only objection i have though is: "Don't those vaccines actually stop the spread?" Vs. the vaccine in question which doesn't prevent spread at all. Thank you guys for the respectful responses. Super refreshing to just talk about stuff.
derelict wrote:
It does not stop the spread, this is true. What is does do, however, is demonstrably reduce the risk of hospitalization and death. With the system...
It does not stop the spread, this is true. What is does do, however, is demonstrably reduce the risk of hospitalization and death. With the system we have, that is the best thing that we can hope for. Our health system is set up to maximize profits, and not necessarily care. American businesses have adopted the 'just in time' philosophy for logistics and when one thing drops, the rest suffers. Hence, the National Guard being activated to do everything from medical assistance in hospitals to driving school buses.
Makes perfect sense especially when we take the business perspective. I have to remind myself almost daily, no matter what the case, as a business organization they are to act in the highest interests of their majority share holders. With America being the only place in the world in which pharmaceutical companies can advertise, it makes me as a marketing student, who is learning about how these things and seeing them change our views and visions of the big picture more and more every day, so so nervous. I need a hug mane
2
derelict
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Northern of, VA US
1/21/2022 7:48am
bizutch wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/08/us/covid-detection-dogs-help-ma-schools/…

The Germans used dogs in Stalag 17B on my grandfather's friends.

But I'm sure this won't get out of hand anywhere....never has before right.
And my Beagle chewed up my daughters pencil eraser. What exactly is your point?
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Primoz
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SI
1/21/2022 7:49am
Requiring the vac is the wrong narrative and is wearing me out. It's not asking the actual question that matters. The real question should be, show...
Requiring the vac is the wrong narrative and is wearing me out. It's not asking the actual question that matters. The real question should be, show me your positive antibody test. People who have had C-19 have much higher antibodies than people who get the vac and are more likely to have a negative effect from getting the vac. If I had recently had C-19 there is no way in hell I would get the vac.
But you still have memory cells in your immune system and are protected even when you don't have antibodies anymore. So the antibody test is also flawed.

Plus it's quite apparent that quite a few people here (mostly Americans for obvious reasons) fail to realise that a lot of the restrictions, logical or not, logical when they were set and not anymore or illogical from the onset, were set to protect the greater public, not the individual.

Yeah, great, free choice and everything, but to be a bit facetious, why does this free choice mean any time someone has a big injury in the States there's a GoFundMe to cover the costs of getting them back in one piece? Here in the socialist Europe (socialists measure are the ones where the public is better of at the expense of the individual, in general...) with a socialist healthcare and retirement fund a smashed cheekbone requiring titanium plates cost me (and my family) a grand total of 4 car rides to the hospital and one car ride to the doctors office. And I got 4 weeks of paid sick leave too (state mandated worker's rights).

Different mentalities, of course, but I think it's important to remember humanity achieved A LOT of things that we have because we worked together as a society, not alone as every man (woman) for him(her)self.
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1/21/2022 7:51am
Primoz wrote:
But that's the key, vaccines WERE more effective with Alpha, a bit less so with Delta and even less so with the Omicron variant. How can...
But that's the key, vaccines WERE more effective with Alpha, a bit less so with Delta and even less so with the Omicron variant. How can you say 'vaccines have proven themselves with previous variants, so they are still effective', when there are studies that show that vaccinations are less effective with Omicron?

Regarding stopping spread, they still do lower the infection rates even with Omicron, so it's not all bad. Though with the infection rates and the demand on hospitals we're seeing currently, I think it does seem like a question of when, not if the pandemic will be over.

Regarding these horror stories from vaccinated people, where are you people living, what are you doing, what are you eating and what kind of vaccines are you taking? Just as anecdotal, I know of 0 people that had any serious side effects from any of the vaccines (AZ, Johnson, Moderna, Pfizer). And I know about quite a few people that have had and still have problems from contracting COVID.

Are all these people with problems that 'people know personally' just Facebook stories or what? Or just fearmongering? Honestly asking as I fail to see all these issues.

And impossible to prove the difference in symptoms? What about the number of vaccinated vs. the number of unvaccinated people in hospitals? Is that not _LITERALLY_ a direct comparison in the severity of symptoms between being vaccinated and not vaccinated (it's now about 50:50 between vaccinated and unvaccinated when it comes to positive cases due to Omicron here in Slovenia, but the ratio still greatly favours the vaccinated when it comes to hospitalisations).
Vaccines are still very much effective in the Omicron variant to prevente severe disease and death - Check this from WHO

I'm with you on the topic of vaccines side effects and in regard to bizutchs post.
Case reports mean nothing in epidemiology. I too know dozens if not hundreds of people who are double our triple vaccinated and had 0 severe side effects from it.
On the other hand, and being a healthworker on the respiratory area I have seen a lot of people who had post COVID symptons for months, even if the acute disease was very mild.
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1
Primoz
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1/21/2022 7:59am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 8:00am
Ah, yeah, I wasn't clear enough, I was aiming exclusively at preventing infection. I think I mentioned here before that they are still very effective against serious complications and hospitalisations even with Omicron.
1
derelict
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Northern of, VA US
1/21/2022 8:06am
Primoz wrote:
Ah, yeah, I wasn't clear enough, I was aiming exclusively at preventing infection. I think I mentioned here before that they are still very effective against...
Ah, yeah, I wasn't clear enough, I was aiming exclusively at preventing infection. I think I mentioned here before that they are still very effective against serious complications and hospitalisations even with Omicron.
At one point in time they were. Early on. But, due to roll out and take up numbers, the virus mutated a few times and efficacy in that arena has decreased. Now, the standard is 'will it keep you out of the hospital and from dying?' That answer is 'yes'.
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bigchomper
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Talent, OR US
1/21/2022 8:23am
And the triggered snowflakes want to cancel you for offending them. Go figure
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Ahab
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Brooklyn, NY US
1/21/2022 8:55am
bigchomper wrote:
And the triggered snowflakes want to cancel you for offending them. Go figure
Whoa, three buzzwords in one sentence. Yahtzee!
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Stewyeww
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CA
1/21/2022 8:56am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2022 9:00am
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around 80% of deaths were in people 65 or older. Dementia and alzheimer was highest in older people followed by high blood pressure, in people 45 and under obesity, nervous system disorders and diabetes. An aging and unhealthy population looks like a pretty direct link to deaths so why aren't governments pushing people to live healthier lifestyles? More lives would be saved by banning fast food and cigarettes than making the covid vaccine mandatory.

That's not to say young healthy people wont die and older sick people would live, but more that a lot of healthcare systems around the world can be doing things better.
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1/21/2022 10:24am
Stewyeww wrote:
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around...
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around 80% of deaths were in people 65 or older. Dementia and alzheimer was highest in older people followed by high blood pressure, in people 45 and under obesity, nervous system disorders and diabetes. An aging and unhealthy population looks like a pretty direct link to deaths so why aren't governments pushing people to live healthier lifestyles? More lives would be saved by banning fast food and cigarettes than making the covid vaccine mandatory.

That's not to say young healthy people wont die and older sick people would live, but more that a lot of healthcare systems around the world can be doing things better.
I'd like to understand the subset of people who oppose vaccine mandates but would be pro healthy lifestyle mandates, but I'm afraid my brain is too smooth.
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Stewyeww
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CA
1/21/2022 10:52am
Stewyeww wrote:
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around...
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around 80% of deaths were in people 65 or older. Dementia and alzheimer was highest in older people followed by high blood pressure, in people 45 and under obesity, nervous system disorders and diabetes. An aging and unhealthy population looks like a pretty direct link to deaths so why aren't governments pushing people to live healthier lifestyles? More lives would be saved by banning fast food and cigarettes than making the covid vaccine mandatory.

That's not to say young healthy people wont die and older sick people would live, but more that a lot of healthcare systems around the world can be doing things better.
I'd like to understand the subset of people who oppose vaccine mandates but would be [i]pro [/i]healthy lifestyle mandates, but I'm afraid my brain is too...
I'd like to understand the subset of people who oppose vaccine mandates but would be pro healthy lifestyle mandates, but I'm afraid my brain is too smooth.
I guess it is.....

Countries where less than 40% of the population was overweight had death rates of around 10-100 000, countries with a overweight population with more than 50% have death rates closer to 100-100 000. Im not telling you to not get the vaccine, im just saying there is more to it than getting vaccine and calling it good.
3
1/21/2022 11:51am
bizutch wrote:
You can certainly argue that the experimental vaccine trials are effective, but when there are plenty of us with friends & relatives who have suffered severe...
You can certainly argue that the experimental vaccine trials are effective, but when there are plenty of us with friends & relatives who have suffered severe reactions or died of their first ever heart attack 3 days after the jab, you're not winning any friends.

Quite literally saw my cousin's lower abdomen and legs and they're purple almost 6 months after his legs clotted so bad they tured to sludge 3 days after his shot.
He's had 2 surgeries and scheduled for several more.

Personally saw my brother in law's leg balloon and get to go to the hospital the day after his shot.
Personally saw the obituary of a friends uncle who died of a sudden heart attack 2 days after his shot.

A friend whose aunt and her son both passed within a month of their shots after sudden escalation of unexplained, multiple complications just...out of nowhere.
Personally spoke to the father a girl on my daughter's softball team. The girl couldn't get out of bed for 2 days from debilitating leg pains and still can't run after her jab.

I and 6-8 families in my class at church all went through Covid without having the jab and all fully recovered &; now have antibodies, T cells, B cells & a far more durable immune response to the bug than any person alive who took the shots.

And this garbage about "Oh, but my symptoms were milder because I had the shot". It is impossible to prove that because NOBODY asked our group of 30-40 people about our symptoms. So it's impossible logic.

And then of course, there is a new Columbia study indicating way more people die of the vaccines than reported:

https://www.informedchoiceaustralia.com/post/columbia-study-true-u-s-co…

And of course, Facebook deletes posts on your personal page if you link to a reporting website for vaccine side effects reporting. And FB shut down vacccine side effect support group pages.

But hey...perfectly safe.
So you're saying that there is no way to prove that the vaccine leads to a milder outcome?
But we're to believe that because someone had a heart attack several days after a shot that the vaccine was the cause of the heart attack?

Mmm'k

Cousin, friend's aunt people at my church = not science.

While we're being antidotal, my coworker's wife is a nurse. At the hospital she works at, which once again is full of Covid patients. Guess what the one thing they all have in common? That's right, unvaxxed. Crazy coincidence I guess...
16
Stewyeww
Posts
242
Joined
6/10/2021
Location
CA
1/21/2022 12:16pm
So you're saying that there is no way to prove that the vaccine leads to a milder outcome? But we're to believe that because someone had...
So you're saying that there is no way to prove that the vaccine leads to a milder outcome?
But we're to believe that because someone had a heart attack several days after a shot that the vaccine was the cause of the heart attack?

Mmm'k

Cousin, friend's aunt people at my church = not science.

While we're being antidotal, my coworker's wife is a nurse. At the hospital she works at, which once again is full of Covid patients. Guess what the one thing they all have in common? That's right, unvaxxed. Crazy coincidence I guess...
So what your saying is he has a biased opinion one way because of what he has experienced, and you have a biased opinion the other way because of what you have experience?

3
2
Drunknride
Posts
4
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
Temecula, CA US
1/21/2022 12:27pm
So you're saying that there is no way to prove that the vaccine leads to a milder outcome? But we're to believe that because someone had...
So you're saying that there is no way to prove that the vaccine leads to a milder outcome?
But we're to believe that because someone had a heart attack several days after a shot that the vaccine was the cause of the heart attack?

Mmm'k

Cousin, friend's aunt people at my church = not science.

While we're being antidotal, my coworker's wife is a nurse. At the hospital she works at, which once again is full of Covid patients. Guess what the one thing they all have in common? That's right, unvaxxed. Crazy coincidence I guess...
Stewyeww wrote:
So what your saying is he has a biased opinion one way because of what he has experienced, and you have a biased opinion the other...
So what your saying is he has a biased opinion one way because of what he has experienced, and you have a biased opinion the other way because of what you have experience?

Whoa buddy, don't bring rational thought into this. It makes the brains hurt.
1
1/21/2022 12:31pm
Stewyeww wrote:
So what your saying is he has a biased opinion one way because of what he has experienced, and you have a biased opinion the other...
So what your saying is he has a biased opinion one way because of what he has experienced, and you have a biased opinion the other way because of what you have experience?

I'm calling into question his interpretation of what he's observed. He hasn't directly experienced anything from what he reported.
Also questioning if being vaccinated means almost zero case resulting in hospitalization doesn't prove, even indirectly that the vaccine does not lead to better outcomes.
2
Atkisa
Posts
48
Joined
1/20/2016
Location
GB
1/21/2022 1:04pm
Stewyeww wrote:
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around...
There are more factors than just vaccine or no vaccine, in Canada, around 90% of deaths from covid were in people with pre-existing chronic conditions, around 80% of deaths were in people 65 or older. Dementia and alzheimer was highest in older people followed by high blood pressure, in people 45 and under obesity, nervous system disorders and diabetes. An aging and unhealthy population looks like a pretty direct link to deaths so why aren't governments pushing people to live healthier lifestyles? More lives would be saved by banning fast food and cigarettes than making the covid vaccine mandatory.

That's not to say young healthy people wont die and older sick people would live, but more that a lot of healthcare systems around the world can be doing things better.
I'd like to understand the subset of people who oppose vaccine mandates but would be [i]pro [/i]healthy lifestyle mandates, but I'm afraid my brain is too...
I'd like to understand the subset of people who oppose vaccine mandates but would be pro healthy lifestyle mandates, but I'm afraid my brain is too smooth.
Stewyeww wrote:
I guess it is..... Countries where less than 40% of the population was overweight had death rates of around 10-100 000, countries with a overweight population...
I guess it is.....

Countries where less than 40% of the population was overweight had death rates of around 10-100 000, countries with a overweight population with more than 50% have death rates closer to 100-100 000. Im not telling you to not get the vaccine, im just saying there is more to it than getting vaccine and calling it good.
Countries with bad/no public health policies have bad public health
3

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