slack, long-travel, pedal-able 29ers?

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Alexptdmg
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Mesa, AZ US
11/22/2015 8:08pm
AGR97 wrote:
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be...
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be perfect for me. Imagine a bike that stable and fast on gnarly trails!
Interestingly my 2016 Stumpjumper XXL is kind of like this alebeit with less travel and slighlty steeper. The HA is currently 67 but I'm planning to use an angleset to get it down to 65.5. Then it'll be ready to rip until this beast comes out Smile
What you describe is an Spe enduro 29, Niner WFO or bmc... These are already here
DrewB
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Salt Lake City, UT US
11/22/2015 9:56pm Edited Date/Time 11/22/2015 10:28pm
Big Bird wrote:
If I could still ride I'd be on one and able to tell you. I have a buddy at Santa Cruz who has said that there...
If I could still ride I'd be on one and able to tell you. I have a buddy at Santa Cruz who has said that there is a lot of internal pressure (By employees that is.) to make the Tall Boy LT the next redesign. They may well already have test mules by now I would think. I'd love to see a bike like this built up with a Boxxer with a Pike Charger damper in it. Ultimate enduro bike?
Well, yah, duh... Of course SC is 'redesigning' the Tallboy LT - it is the oldest frame in the lineup to not have a major redesign in the last few years - it will of course receive the new linkage treatment = shorter CS, longer TT, steeper SA, slacker HA... Not to mention it was a fantastic seller and was the 'make' in 'make or break' of SC in the last decade. Of course they have test mules. Did anyone forget how long they had Bronson test mules while concurrently saying they "didn't see the point of 27.5"?!? This means they have more than likely been test mule-ing Tallboy LT protoypes for at least the last 2 years.

It takes no crystal ball; a 'new' Tallboy LT is inevitable - they have been playing the game right and seeing where the industry moves in respects to 'standards' like Boost spacing, etc...

I'm calling it now - they are test mule-ing a 27.5/29er hybrid like the new Foes Mixer. I think the 'new' Tallboy LT will be:
27.5 rear, 29 front
shorter CS (via VP v3 linkage), likely 17.3"
longer TT, longer reach, lower BB...
steeper SA ~74
slacker HA ~76
130mm travel (basically a 5010 frame tweaked for 29er front)
DrewB
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Salt Lake City, UT US
11/22/2015 10:03pm
AGR97 wrote:
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be...
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be perfect for me. Imagine a bike that stable and fast on gnarly trails!
Interestingly my 2016 Stumpjumper XXL is kind of like this alebeit with less travel and slighlty steeper. The HA is currently 67 but I'm planning to use an angleset to get it down to 65.5. Then it'll be ready to rip until this beast comes out Smile
I'm all about slack, but how much slacker can a 29er get before its a floppy sack of turds? Honestly with 51 offset 65-66 is reasonable when comparing to 27.5 trail & flop calculations. I just not sure if the 'perfect' 29er with that much travel is realistic in the real world. Do the drawbacks of a bigger wheel outweigh the benefits at this travel? Sure, I want a 180mm super plush 29er with perfect BB, 65 HA, 20lbs, pedals like a hardtail, blah blah blah but in reality is it going to happen?

I think the next 'thing' in the industry will be long travel 27.5 rear with 29 front. Lever arms make the front wheel more pertinent with 'rollover' - did anyone ever have a problem with their back wheel getting over a rock?
Oz_Taylor
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11/22/2015 11:57pm
JCL wrote:
What about 650b bikes like the Reign and Strive that have longer wheelbases than the E29? Personally I like long travel 29" but if we're talking...
What about 650b bikes like the Reign and Strive that have longer wheelbases than the E29?

Personally I like long travel 29" but if we're talking ultimate speed it won't be long before someone makes some proper 650b+ tires and it'll be game over for 650b and 29".

You are correct, technically the Reign/Strive are longer in the wheelbase but when you factor in the size of the 29" wheels, the overall bike length is longer (around 3"). With the big contact patch and extra rotating mass at the very ends of the bike, it makes the E29 more of handful in my opinion, especially if you run a big tyre like a Magic Mary. I don't think the numbers tell the whole story.

The last thing I would want is to make the bike 20mm taller and 3+ degrees slacker, unless it was for hammering lift assisted trails.

AGR97
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GB
11/23/2015 12:21am
AGR97 wrote:
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be...
Finally a forum about my dream bike! A 160mm 29er Frame, 330mm BB height, 65 degree head angle, 440 chainstays, and a 510mm reach would be perfect for me. Imagine a bike that stable and fast on gnarly trails!
Interestingly my 2016 Stumpjumper XXL is kind of like this alebeit with less travel and slighlty steeper. The HA is currently 67 but I'm planning to use an angleset to get it down to 65.5. Then it'll be ready to rip until this beast comes out Smile
Alexptdmg wrote:
What you describe is an Spe enduro 29, Niner WFO or bmc... These are already here
The Specialized isn't slack, low, long enough. The Niner reach is short so again not long enough and the BMC is also not slack, low, and long enough
Oz_Taylor
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11/23/2015 12:39am
AGR97 wrote:
The Specialized isn't slack, low, long enough. The Niner reach is short so again not long enough and the BMC is also not slack, low, and...
The Specialized isn't slack, low, long enough. The Niner reach is short so again not long enough and the BMC is also not slack, low, and long enough
A large E29 has roughly the same reach as an XL SC V10.

29" wheels add about 75mm to the overall length of the bike compared to 650b. If you put a Large E29 next to an XL V10, the E29 will be longer.

How long do you want your trail bike to be?

I agree the E29 is a tall bike, but it has 29" wheels and 6" travel. If you lower the BB, pedal strikes become more common, especially if you are a tall guy and don't want to run 170mm cranks. If you lower that bars too much, you lose that 'in the bike' feeling, and it makes it harder to manual and pop. This would be even more exaggerated if it were slacker and longer.


harandre
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11/23/2015 12:59am Edited Date/Time 11/23/2015 1:11am
.
11/23/2015 2:02am
I noticed Cole Picchiottino riding an aluminum Trek Session at National Champs with 29" wheels fit in it. I noticed it had a much smaller rocker link/shock that usual and didnt even notice the bigger wheels until I looked at the tires. The bike looked like it wasnt sliding much even with how pinned he was coming down the last chute.
AGR97
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11/23/2015 2:28am
Oz_Taylor wrote:
A large E29 has roughly the same reach as an XL SC V10. 29" wheels add about 75mm to the overall length of the bike compared...
A large E29 has roughly the same reach as an XL SC V10.

29" wheels add about 75mm to the overall length of the bike compared to 650b. If you put a Large E29 next to an XL V10, the E29 will be longer.

How long do you want your trail bike to be?

I agree the E29 is a tall bike, but it has 29" wheels and 6" travel. If you lower the BB, pedal strikes become more common, especially if you are a tall guy and don't want to run 170mm cranks. If you lower that bars too much, you lose that 'in the bike' feeling, and it makes it harder to manual and pop. This would be even more exaggerated if it were slacker and longer.


Very, VERY Long Smile
Yes you strike more pedals with a lower bb and lose some pop when manualing but these are trade offs when you consider we're talking about what is essentially a 29er Downhill bike built to go at warp speed on gnarly terrain. If people don't want that they can have fun on steeper, shorter, and higher bikes
ralle
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FI
11/23/2015 3:41am
I've got great news for you guys wanting longer, lower an slacker bikes.

I've been testing Pole -bicycles since the first prototype. And we've been pushing the envelope on how long and slack we can go with them. And we are still pushing Smile

The 2016 models come with geometry that we've tested and felt comfortable with.
For example the 29r aimed for trail riding ( https://www.polebicycles.com/evolink-140-29-tr/
boasts a head angle of 64.5 degrees and the medium sized bike has a longer reach than an XL-sized competitors.

What we've figured out is that you can't just throw in a slack head angle. You need to have a long reach and a steeper seat angle to make it comfortable. And if concentrate only on the reach and the head angle you'll soon notice some differences in steering - so we've actually gone longer in the chainstay as well. If you're not doing trials, a longer and slacker bike is better everywhere, even on the climbs when you've got a longer chainstay.

The guys are currently updating the website with predefined build-configurations but you can take a look at all of the models geometries using the Bike-builder https://www.polebicycles.com/pole-bikebuilder/

Out of all the models my personal favorite is the Pole Evolink 140mm paired with a 150mm fork (which you can find in the bike-builder under Gravity Enduro "GE" Riding style). You can truly do everything with this bike and I don't see any reason going for a steeper and shorter bike than this.

Ever since we started going longer and slacker I've felt that there is no going back for me. I even had to get rid of my Intense DH-bike since it felt so awkward to ride once I've gotten used to a longer bike.
Oz_Taylor
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11/23/2015 4:12am
ralle wrote:
I've got great news for you guys wanting longer, lower an slacker bikes. I've been testing [url=http://www.pole.fi]Pole[/url] -bicycles since the first prototype. And we've been pushing...
I've got great news for you guys wanting longer, lower an slacker bikes.

I've been testing Pole -bicycles since the first prototype. And we've been pushing the envelope on how long and slack we can go with them. And we are still pushing Smile

The 2016 models come with geometry that we've tested and felt comfortable with.
For example the 29r aimed for trail riding ( https://www.polebicycles.com/evolink-140-29-tr/
boasts a head angle of 64.5 degrees and the medium sized bike has a longer reach than an XL-sized competitors.

What we've figured out is that you can't just throw in a slack head angle. You need to have a long reach and a steeper seat angle to make it comfortable. And if concentrate only on the reach and the head angle you'll soon notice some differences in steering - so we've actually gone longer in the chainstay as well. If you're not doing trials, a longer and slacker bike is better everywhere, even on the climbs when you've got a longer chainstay.

The guys are currently updating the website with predefined build-configurations but you can take a look at all of the models geometries using the Bike-builder https://www.polebicycles.com/pole-bikebuilder/

Out of all the models my personal favorite is the Pole Evolink 140mm paired with a 150mm fork (which you can find in the bike-builder under Gravity Enduro "GE" Riding style). You can truly do everything with this bike and I don't see any reason going for a steeper and shorter bike than this.

Ever since we started going longer and slacker I've felt that there is no going back for me. I even had to get rid of my Intense DH-bike since it felt so awkward to ride once I've gotten used to a longer bike.
Cool, interesting site!

But these crazy dudes want a long, slack, 180mm travel 29" lightweight trail bike that they can ride uphill. Have you guys played with longer travel 29" setups?
ralle
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FI
11/23/2015 4:23am
Oz_Taylor wrote:
Cool, interesting site! But these crazy dudes want a long, slack, 180mm travel 29" lightweight trail bike that they can ride uphill. Have you guys played...
Cool, interesting site!

But these crazy dudes want a long, slack, 180mm travel 29" lightweight trail bike that they can ride uphill. Have you guys played with longer travel 29" setups?
Yes we are going to (the designer Leo also has some wild ideas on how to improve the strength of wheels to make it happen for downhill). We are also going to see where we can take the head angle on the downhill bike and the chainstay length.

For me the 150mm Fork has been enough for all the riding here in Finland once its set up correctly and for aggressive riding I would suggest throwing in an MRP Stage. For faster, steeper, rougher trails I can understand the need for "forgiveness" that the longer travel would offer. We are constantly trying out new things and in my personal opinion I can't see any reason that would be against 29" for longer travel. I'll keep you updated once we get our feet wet.
LLLLL
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IE
11/23/2015 7:47am
ralle wrote:
I've got great news for you guys wanting longer, lower an slacker bikes. I've been testing [url=http://www.pole.fi]Pole[/url] -bicycles since the first prototype. And we've been pushing...
I've got great news for you guys wanting longer, lower an slacker bikes.

I've been testing Pole -bicycles since the first prototype. And we've been pushing the envelope on how long and slack we can go with them. And we are still pushing Smile

The 2016 models come with geometry that we've tested and felt comfortable with.
For example the 29r aimed for trail riding ( https://www.polebicycles.com/evolink-140-29-tr/
boasts a head angle of 64.5 degrees and the medium sized bike has a longer reach than an XL-sized competitors.

What we've figured out is that you can't just throw in a slack head angle. You need to have a long reach and a steeper seat angle to make it comfortable. And if concentrate only on the reach and the head angle you'll soon notice some differences in steering - so we've actually gone longer in the chainstay as well. If you're not doing trials, a longer and slacker bike is better everywhere, even on the climbs when you've got a longer chainstay.

The guys are currently updating the website with predefined build-configurations but you can take a look at all of the models geometries using the Bike-builder https://www.polebicycles.com/pole-bikebuilder/

Out of all the models my personal favorite is the Pole Evolink 140mm paired with a 150mm fork (which you can find in the bike-builder under Gravity Enduro "GE" Riding style). You can truly do everything with this bike and I don't see any reason going for a steeper and shorter bike than this.

Ever since we started going longer and slacker I've felt that there is no going back for me. I even had to get rid of my Intense DH-bike since it felt so awkward to ride once I've gotten used to a longer bike.
Did BTR do up a frame for you guys a year or so ago?
ralle
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FI
11/23/2015 8:02am
LLLLL wrote:
Did BTR do up a frame for you guys a year or so ago?
Yes, the first prototypes (5 of them) were made by BTR and they were used to get going on the geometries. Here is actually a picture of the first prototype, it's been a long way from there to this point Smile
All of the steel-prototypes are actually still being ridden by happy customers.
harandre
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DE
11/23/2015 10:04am
Just to clarify:

1) sspomer has been asking about the functionality of a 7" downhill oriented enduro 29er. The functionality might be there for specific types of trails, but it's somewhat questionable, if really necessary for most types of riding (like 99,9%).

2) AGR97, ralle and me (amongst a few others) pointing out that it might be better to keep the super long + slack approach and pair that with a ~6" travel frame. The pole is interesting in that respect (also with the new suspension layout, compared to the prototypes), but for me personally too expensive (does it have a bottle cage mounting option?).

3) Couple of people talking about how awesome Spesh Enduro or Treks are, which might be true for average riding, but ever tried to ride a real downhill track on any of these? Might just be a little easier with a little more room towards the frontwheel.
harandre
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11/23/2015 11:00am
@drewb: liteville has been advocating this scaled sizing thing, but I'm sceptical as different wheel sizes make it harder to push through turns, as the point at which you have to put pressure on the wheel is quite different, which makes riding through fast turns a little awkward.
I also remember that about 10 years ago a lot of people would ride a 24" rear wheel due to wheel-stability issues and making their bikes lower/ slacker. However you could really feel how the rear wheel would hang up on a lot of stuff compared to the front, so people dropped that idea again. I also think that if there is no specific need to go with a smaller wheel (i.e. you can't handle the big ones), one should stay with the bigger ones front and rear.
LLLLL
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IE
11/23/2015 3:57pm
LLLLL wrote:
Did BTR do up a frame for you guys a year or so ago?
ralle wrote:
Yes, the first prototypes (5 of them) were made by BTR and they were used to get going on the geometries. [url=https://www.instagram.com/p/it0lLCuncD/?taken-by=polebicycles]Here[/url] is actually a picture...
Yes, the first prototypes (5 of them) were made by BTR and they were used to get going on the geometries. Here is actually a picture of the first prototype, it's been a long way from there to this point Smile
All of the steel-prototypes are actually still being ridden by happy customers.
good looking bike the pinner, nearly bought one. guess you didn't want to make another session.
Big Bird
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Oceano, CA US
11/23/2015 5:28pm
harandre wrote:
@drewb: liteville has been advocating this scaled sizing thing, but I'm sceptical as different wheel sizes make it harder to push through turns, as the point...
@drewb: liteville has been advocating this scaled sizing thing, but I'm sceptical as different wheel sizes make it harder to push through turns, as the point at which you have to put pressure on the wheel is quite different, which makes riding through fast turns a little awkward.
I also remember that about 10 years ago a lot of people would ride a 24" rear wheel due to wheel-stability issues and making their bikes lower/ slacker. However you could really feel how the rear wheel would hang up on a lot of stuff compared to the front, so people dropped that idea again. I also think that if there is no specific need to go with a smaller wheel (i.e. you can't handle the big ones), one should stay with the bigger ones front and rear.
I used to have a Santa Cruz Super 8 built up with 26 front and 24 rear Double Wides. And it turned amazingly. In a parking lot I could ride perpendicular to a white parking space line and then load the front, turn on a dime by transferring weight to the BB and roll out along that line. 90 degrees sharp in a bike length. If a 29/27.5 bike turns like that, buy one. Maybe 29/26 is the way to go?
ThomDawson
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11/23/2015 11:17pm
Been asking myself the same question. I was pleasantly surprised by the improvement 650b made to my ride. They were noticeably quicker, faster rolling. I could also tell they were ever so slightly slower to spin up as well but it was negligible. I think a good, slack 29er could show the same benefits on a larger scale (literally). The slower spin up will be slower yeah but the improvement in rolling speed and roll-over will likely outweigh that. The one area I'm more concerned about is whether the bike will lose some of its manoeuvrability - many Enduro 29er riders say no - but I'm thinking would i be as comfortable taking the like of the new Mega 290 or the Geometron 29er down some freeridey stuff? Maybe I'd be more comfortable? Either way I've got my finger on the pulse waiting impatiently for Nukeproof to announce demo days in England!
jfkusa
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MN US
11/26/2015 8:32am
Who has seen the bike mag dream build with the evil wreckoning. It's not online yet but it looks to be 150mm rear is my guess with 160-150 fork.
kev.1n
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12/1/2015 3:03pm
you mean this one? Cool

jfkusa
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12/1/2015 7:43pm
kev.1n wrote:
you mean this one? B) [img]http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/18/d84df3cd00989c8b62b174fc98501caa.jpg[/img]
you mean this one? Cool

that is the one exactly. I'm anxiously awaiting the release to see the promo video. if it is half as good as the video with the following i'll be super hyped after watching it Woohoo
ralle
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FI
3/5/2016 1:19pm
Apologies if someone is offended by me bumping up this old thread.
But we just got the first objective review out by Bike Radar, where Seb Stott pretty much sums up on where long and slack 29ers excel.



We are also working on a prototype 29er with longer travel on the rear so we'll see how it stacks up against the 650b downhill bike. As soon as we get the prototype out for testing I'll let you guys the verdict.
AGR97
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GB
3/14/2016 12:23pm
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega 290 frame, adding a 160 fork, angleset, and offset bushings and then voila! DH slack, long, pedalable 29er. What do you guys think? Could I use this to race DH?
3/15/2016 8:54pm
AGR97 wrote:
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega...
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega 290 frame, adding a 160 fork, angleset, and offset bushings and then voila! DH slack, long, pedalable 29er. What do you guys think? Could I use this to race DH?
It really depends on the trail. You also would need to make sure that the nukeproof can use an angleset; not all bikes can. If you do go through with it you should post about how it does!
tarhof
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NO
3/18/2016 7:52am
AGR97 wrote:
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega...
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega 290 frame, adding a 160 fork, angleset, and offset bushings and then voila! DH slack, long, pedalable 29er. What do you guys think? Could I use this to race DH?
I did this to my Banshee Prime. 160mm fork, 1degree angleset and the dropouts in the slackest position. 64.8 degree head angle as it sits now.
I plan to machine myself a new set of dropouts, paired with offset bushings, so i can use a longer shock, giving me more rear travel.
3/20/2016 7:30pm
AGR97 wrote:
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega...
Sorry to post in this thread but I have an ide and need to know if it's a good one, I'm considering buying a Nukeproof Mega 290 frame, adding a 160 fork, angleset, and offset bushings and then voila! DH slack, long, pedalable 29er. What do you guys think? Could I use this to race DH?
tarhof wrote:
I did this to my Banshee Prime. 160mm fork, 1degree angleset and the dropouts in the slackest position. 64.8 degree head angle as it sits now...
I did this to my Banshee Prime. 160mm fork, 1degree angleset and the dropouts in the slackest position. 64.8 degree head angle as it sits now.
I plan to machine myself a new set of dropouts, paired with offset bushings, so i can use a longer shock, giving me more rear travel.
How does it ride, so slack on a 29er?

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