MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Verbl Kint
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590
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9/13/2013
Location
Quezon City PH
1/25/2021 6:46am
Trocko wrote:
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages...
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages but nothing seems eye popping


My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! Cool

However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto starting out at 65°, it is more likely to be the next Tracer, as several here have already pointed out.
1
Primoz
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4606
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/25/2021 7:05am Edited Date/Time 1/25/2021 7:08am
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines...
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines. I prefer how my bike corners in flat corners. I prefer how my bike climbs. But once you get descending on a actual bike trail the new one feels better. Especially if it’s steep or rough or riding platform pedals.

The recent sb115 vs spur does a pretty good job of
Highlighting the pros and cons of modern geo. I think more conservative numbers are really great if you don’t have a lot of elevation change or care as much about the ups as you do the downs. But modern geo is just much better at going down. I do think there is a limit to how long you want to make a bike. I would also say that for hard tails I do not like modern geo at all. I’m riding way off the back if it’s steep or rough to use my legs as suspension. I feel way too stretched out as a result.
Devil's advocate again, as I've mentioned, bikes have gotten longer because for a given top tube (cockpit) length at a steeper seat tube angle, the reach (and overall bike) length will get longer. So I'd actually argue that the main reason and benefit of longer reach bikes is actually in the climbing performance. But not because of their length, because of the seat tube angle with the length being a byproduct.

Oh, maybe to add a negative of longer bikes, with the seat tube angles getting steeper, the seat does get in the way more as you're centered over the BB more compared to shorter, slacker bikes. And I'm talking about this after going from a 125 mm dropper on the Giant to a 170 mm dropper on the Bird. Sure, the drop is a benefit, but the way the crotch interacts with the seat is still different, not purely better which would be my point.
3
1/25/2021 7:22am
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines...
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines. I prefer how my bike corners in flat corners. I prefer how my bike climbs. But once you get descending on a actual bike trail the new one feels better. Especially if it’s steep or rough or riding platform pedals.

The recent sb115 vs spur does a pretty good job of
Highlighting the pros and cons of modern geo. I think more conservative numbers are really great if you don’t have a lot of elevation change or care as much about the ups as you do the downs. But modern geo is just much better at going down. I do think there is a limit to how long you want to make a bike. I would also say that for hard tails I do not like modern geo at all. I’m riding way off the back if it’s steep or rough to use my legs as suspension. I feel way too stretched out as a result.
Primoz wrote:
Devil's advocate again, as I've mentioned, bikes have gotten longer because for a given top tube (cockpit) length at a steeper seat tube angle, the reach...
Devil's advocate again, as I've mentioned, bikes have gotten longer because for a given top tube (cockpit) length at a steeper seat tube angle, the reach (and overall bike) length will get longer. So I'd actually argue that the main reason and benefit of longer reach bikes is actually in the climbing performance. But not because of their length, because of the seat tube angle with the length being a byproduct.

Oh, maybe to add a negative of longer bikes, with the seat tube angles getting steeper, the seat does get in the way more as you're centered over the BB more compared to shorter, slacker bikes. And I'm talking about this after going from a 125 mm dropper on the Giant to a 170 mm dropper on the Bird. Sure, the drop is a benefit, but the way the crotch interacts with the seat is still different, not purely better which would be my point.
I’m 5 9. Slack seattubes were never an issue for me in terms of climbing position. I do wish the stand over numbers were better however and a steeper seat tube allows for a bit more clearance with the seat and tire when suspension is bottomed out.

The ultra low stand over is the missing component of transition’s sbg geo that most companies haven’t adopted. And is actually the one I liked the most when I rode the current patrol. The next patrol will be my next bike whether it’s this year or next that I can afford it. The new Mach 6 has good stand over numbers too but is just too expensive for me to consider given my salary.

I came from riding a rigid 29er and a rigid post. The Hightower felt great till I rode the transition and realized the seat was in the way going downhill.
1
1/25/2021 7:51am
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines...
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines. I prefer how my bike corners in flat corners. I prefer how my bike climbs. But once you get descending on a actual bike trail the new one feels better. Especially if it’s steep or rough or riding platform pedals.

The recent sb115 vs spur does a pretty good job of
Highlighting the pros and cons of modern geo. I think more conservative numbers are really great if you don’t have a lot of elevation change or care as much about the ups as you do the downs. But modern geo is just much better at going down. I do think there is a limit to how long you want to make a bike. I would also say that for hard tails I do not like modern geo at all. I’m riding way off the back if it’s steep or rough to use my legs as suspension. I feel way too stretched out as a result.
Primoz wrote:
Devil's advocate again, as I've mentioned, bikes have gotten longer because for a given top tube (cockpit) length at a steeper seat tube angle, the reach...
Devil's advocate again, as I've mentioned, bikes have gotten longer because for a given top tube (cockpit) length at a steeper seat tube angle, the reach (and overall bike) length will get longer. So I'd actually argue that the main reason and benefit of longer reach bikes is actually in the climbing performance. But not because of their length, because of the seat tube angle with the length being a byproduct.

Oh, maybe to add a negative of longer bikes, with the seat tube angles getting steeper, the seat does get in the way more as you're centered over the BB more compared to shorter, slacker bikes. And I'm talking about this after going from a 125 mm dropper on the Giant to a 170 mm dropper on the Bird. Sure, the drop is a benefit, but the way the crotch interacts with the seat is still different, not purely better which would be my point.
I’m 5 9. Slack seattubes were never an issue for me in terms of climbing position. I do wish the stand over numbers were better however...
I’m 5 9. Slack seattubes were never an issue for me in terms of climbing position. I do wish the stand over numbers were better however and a steeper seat tube allows for a bit more clearance with the seat and tire when suspension is bottomed out.

The ultra low stand over is the missing component of transition’s sbg geo that most companies haven’t adopted. And is actually the one I liked the most when I rode the current patrol. The next patrol will be my next bike whether it’s this year or next that I can afford it. The new Mach 6 has good stand over numbers too but is just too expensive for me to consider given my salary.

I came from riding a rigid 29er and a rigid post. The Hightower felt great till I rode the transition and realized the seat was in the way going downhill.
The stand over is the one thing that leaves me wanting something lower on my GT Force. It’s not a huge problem for me at 6’ with really long arms/legs and a short torso but I can definitely say that riding bikes w lower standovers makes it easier to use more body language on the bike and stay balanced when things get rough. the new specialized sizing system is really good for standover numbers being low in all sizes but asides from the new enduro the FSR suspension just doesn’t feel all that great.
1
Primoz
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1/25/2021 7:59am
Steep seat tube angles, the actual values, not the virtual ones, are mainly benefiting large riders, riding XL frames. If you're in the M/L range (at 5ft9 you are a medium if I'm not wrong?), your seat height is very near the top of the headtube, where the top tube horizontal is and where the virtual seat tube angle is measured. So what you see is what you get. And it's a relatively new development to adjust the geometries for the fringes of the population, though suspension geometries are still the same across sizes, even though that means an XS rider will have a lot more antisquat than an M/L rider, who will ave the designed antisquat values, while the XL rider will be below the advertised antisquat values. Unless the change in the front centre takes out enough "slack" in it to level things out. Probably depends on the suspension geometry as well.

Anywho, with XL riders going 20 cm above that horizontal isn't out of the ordinary (I'm not THAT tall, but you can look what seat height I have in my bike check), which, with a bent seat tube, gives wildly different numbers. My actual seat tube angle was below 70° on the Giant at seat height, if I'm not mistaken. With the Bird I'm at roughly 75° (with 76° advertised as the virtual angle).

I'm wondering what all of this means for really small riders, on S and XS frames, as their angles should be even steeper than what is advertised. Unless you're on the Sight, which has variable seat tube angles through the sizes.
pinkrobe
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Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
1/25/2021 8:40am
Primoz wrote:
Steep seat tube angles, the actual values, not the virtual ones, are mainly benefiting large riders, riding XL frames. If you're in the M/L range (at...
Steep seat tube angles, the actual values, not the virtual ones, are mainly benefiting large riders, riding XL frames. If you're in the M/L range (at 5ft9 you are a medium if I'm not wrong?), your seat height is very near the top of the headtube, where the top tube horizontal is and where the virtual seat tube angle is measured. So what you see is what you get. And it's a relatively new development to adjust the geometries for the fringes of the population, though suspension geometries are still the same across sizes, even though that means an XS rider will have a lot more antisquat than an M/L rider, who will ave the designed antisquat values, while the XL rider will be below the advertised antisquat values. Unless the change in the front centre takes out enough "slack" in it to level things out. Probably depends on the suspension geometry as well.

Anywho, with XL riders going 20 cm above that horizontal isn't out of the ordinary (I'm not THAT tall, but you can look what seat height I have in my bike check), which, with a bent seat tube, gives wildly different numbers. My actual seat tube angle was below 70° on the Giant at seat height, if I'm not mistaken. With the Bird I'm at roughly 75° (with 76° advertised as the virtual angle).

I'm wondering what all of this means for really small riders, on S and XS frames, as their angles should be even steeper than what is advertised. Unless you're on the Sight, which has variable seat tube angles through the sizes.
Personally, I'm loving the steeper seat angles with the longer front ends. At 5'10" with a 33.5" inseam, the pedal position for climbing is finally in a sweet spot on the new-style bikes. Despite taller front ends, my saddle is still an inch or two above the bar when unsagged, and my saddle height has dropped a bit now that I have my cleats slammed back. On the way down, the 210mm dropper gets the saddle so far out of the way that it's not a factor. The long front end keeps me center-forward for more cornering and braking traction on the front wheel, but it's still easy to move around on the bike. Overall, I'm out-climbing and out-descending past me by a significant margin. New-school geo FTW!
2
1/25/2021 9:59am


New Domain on the way from Rockshox? If there is, it looks like the Zeb fender will fit it.
8
1/25/2021 10:29am
lilrocket wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10433/s1200_Zeb.jpg[/img] New Domain on the way from Rockshox? If there is, it looks like the Zeb fender will fit it.


New Domain on the way from Rockshox? If there is, it looks like the Zeb fender will fit it.
I'd imagine there will be a new DC fork from them build on the 38mm stanchions too.
1
Edthorne
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CA
1/25/2021 11:17am
lilrocket wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10433/s1200_Zeb.jpg[/img] New Domain on the way from Rockshox? If there is, it looks like the Zeb fender will fit it.


New Domain on the way from Rockshox? If there is, it looks like the Zeb fender will fit it.
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer, or sell two dual crown forks with different stanchion diameters like they're doing with the lyrik and zeb.
1
Suns_PSD
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Austin, TX US
1/25/2021 11:47am
The Kravenz has 180% AS without the negative effect of Pedal Kickback that high AS produces with other designs.

Not sure what you are talking about when you say...well everything you typed.
peecee
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Brisbane AU
Fantasy
1/25/2021 12:53pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! B) However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto...
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! Cool

However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto starting out at 65°, it is more likely to be the next Tracer, as several here have already pointed out.

2
1/25/2021 1:21pm
Commencal Muc Off on Fox

lewzz10
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GB
1/25/2021 1:42pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! B) However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto...
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! Cool

However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto starting out at 65°, it is more likely to be the next Tracer, as several here have already pointed out.
peecee wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10434/s1200_EBE2CF86_F765_41B2_AD04_4F785EBDDEC6.jpg[/img]

Socom
1
rockchomper
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
1/25/2021 1:43pm
Commencal Muc Off on Fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10435/s1200_p6pb20050778.jpg[/img]
Commencal Muc Off on Fox

Oh sweet! Itll be super cool to hear from Amuary and Pom Pon in the dailed series!
2
Primoz
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SI
1/25/2021 1:55pm
Edthorne wrote:
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer...
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer, or sell two dual crown forks with different stanchion diameters like they're doing with the lyrik and zeb.
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! Smile

My point being, I can see them growing the Boxxer to 38 mm easy. They are not constrained by model numbers (like Fox and Ohlins), the Boxxer is a staple of the industry, etc.

My question would be, if the Domain is coming back (it's probably gonna be the 'Yari' to the Zeb), is it coming back in a dual crown configuration like it was available back in the day?
3
mwolpin
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Kenmore, WA US
1/25/2021 2:35pm
Commencal Muc Off on Fox [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10435/s1200_p6pb20050778.jpg[/img]
Commencal Muc Off on Fox

Awesome! Jordi gets another top-notch Frenchie to bug him after Loris' move to RS.
1
1/25/2021 3:19pm
Edthorne wrote:
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer...
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer, or sell two dual crown forks with different stanchion diameters like they're doing with the lyrik and zeb.
Primoz wrote:
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! :)...
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! Smile

My point being, I can see them growing the Boxxer to 38 mm easy. They are not constrained by model numbers (like Fox and Ohlins), the Boxxer is a staple of the industry, etc.

My question would be, if the Domain is coming back (it's probably gonna be the 'Yari' to the Zeb), is it coming back in a dual crown configuration like it was available back in the day?
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as the Yari as far as price and damper tech go. Maybe the domain will be a “freeride” or “bike park” marketed dual crown that’ll launch alongside a new 38mm boxxer. Or maybe it’s gonna be an ebike fork...
1
1/25/2021 4:41pm
Edthorne wrote:
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer...
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer, or sell two dual crown forks with different stanchion diameters like they're doing with the lyrik and zeb.
Primoz wrote:
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! :)...
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! Smile

My point being, I can see them growing the Boxxer to 38 mm easy. They are not constrained by model numbers (like Fox and Ohlins), the Boxxer is a staple of the industry, etc.

My question would be, if the Domain is coming back (it's probably gonna be the 'Yari' to the Zeb), is it coming back in a dual crown configuration like it was available back in the day?
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as...
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as the Yari as far as price and damper tech go. Maybe the domain will be a “freeride” or “bike park” marketed dual crown that’ll launch alongside a new 38mm boxxer. Or maybe it’s gonna be an ebike fork...
Well if they can produce a cheaper zeb the free ride market is looking for one
1
WheelBased
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Location
-, CO US
1/25/2021 4:55pm
Here's a strange one. Yeti have applied to patent a linear derailleur. They're using a 6R linkage system that moves the derailleur in a perfectly linear path. Yeti say this will be smaller, lighter, simpler, and allow for more freedom for designers. Additionally, Yeti say this will improve the performance of the derailleur system. The cool part for me is that they even include graphs with linkage movements comparing their design to SRAM and Shimano.

https://wheelbased.com/2021/01/25/linear-derailleur-mechanism-by-yeti/
4
1/25/2021 5:13pm
Primoz wrote:
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! :)...
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! Smile

My point being, I can see them growing the Boxxer to 38 mm easy. They are not constrained by model numbers (like Fox and Ohlins), the Boxxer is a staple of the industry, etc.

My question would be, if the Domain is coming back (it's probably gonna be the 'Yari' to the Zeb), is it coming back in a dual crown configuration like it was available back in the day?
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as...
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as the Yari as far as price and damper tech go. Maybe the domain will be a “freeride” or “bike park” marketed dual crown that’ll launch alongside a new 38mm boxxer. Or maybe it’s gonna be an ebike fork...
Well if they can produce a cheaper zeb the free ride market is looking for one
Zeb Charger R retails for $699.99 (USD) but, like literally every single other bike product worth buying right now, is completely out of stock everywhere. Worth noting that the marz z1 is also $699.99. Hard to imagine them making something any cheaper that won’t either weigh enough to anchor a yacht or feel like the damper is made out of wood and uses nacho cheese as fluid
5
Trocko
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Rocky, CO US
1/25/2021 5:41pm
Maybe this will be Rockshox’s coil fork. They seem to be back on the trend
Verbl Kint
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590
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Location
Quezon City PH
1/25/2021 6:54pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! B) However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto...
My hope is that this will be the next Uzzi. And in aluminum too! Cool

However, the last one was already at 64°. With this proto starting out at 65°, it is more likely to be the next Tracer, as several here have already pointed out.
peecee wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/25/10434/s1200_EBE2CF86_F765_41B2_AD04_4F785EBDDEC6.jpg[/img]

Sweet.

The old SOCOM was a bruiser of a bike and came with a Totem. Back in the day, the lightest builds were around 36 lbs, I believe, which was really light back then for a bike with a fork outfitted with 40in stanchions + coil shock.
iRider
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DK
1/25/2021 7:35pm
Verbl Kint wrote:
Sweet. The old SOCOM was a bruiser of a bike and came with a Totem. Back in the day, the lightest builds were around 36 lbs...
Sweet.

The old SOCOM was a bruiser of a bike and came with a Totem. Back in the day, the lightest builds were around 36 lbs, I believe, which was really light back then for a bike with a fork outfitted with 40in stanchions + coil shock.
He is posting old pics. Pretty sure this is the 2016 prototype Socom that Palmer rode in Southridge.

5
1/26/2021 12:04am
Verbl Kint wrote:
Sweet. The old SOCOM was a bruiser of a bike and came with a Totem. Back in the day, the lightest builds were around 36 lbs...
Sweet.

The old SOCOM was a bruiser of a bike and came with a Totem. Back in the day, the lightest builds were around 36 lbs, I believe, which was really light back then for a bike with a fork outfitted with 40in stanchions + coil shock.
That bike ware sure a looker and damn light. But it snapped. A lot.
1
Primoz
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Location
SI
1/26/2021 3:15am
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as...
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as the Yari as far as price and damper tech go. Maybe the domain will be a “freeride” or “bike park” marketed dual crown that’ll launch alongside a new 38mm boxxer. Or maybe it’s gonna be an ebike fork...
Drop the Zeb R? Also, it still has the Charger damper, while the Yari is on the Motion Control damper. Plus the 7000 series aluminium stanchions of the Lyrik vs. 6000 series stanchions of the Yari. Also, the Domain had steel stanchions back in the day, at least I'm guessing so as they were chrome plated.

Plus the Yari RC MSRP is ~300 € lower than the Zeb R.

I'm thinking there is a place for a Zeb-like-Domain in the lineup lower down, to cover entry level e-bikes.
3
iRider
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DK
1/26/2021 4:56am
Nico_Hrndz wrote:
That bike ware sure a looker and damn light. But it snapped. A lot.
Do you have numbers to back that up? Because I know of quite a few Socom owners and all frames are/were still in good shape during ownership (minus dents because of thin tubes).
The frames that I have seen cracked were ridden by folks that had no business owning one. 200 pounds huck to flat rider were not the intented buyers. That is why Intense came out with the 951 as replacement, which was a privateer's DH bike or park bike if you will and not a superlight, precise DH bike for a rider with the necessary finess.
1
1
Primoz
Posts
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1/26/2021 5:29am
If I remember correctly the 951 swingarms cracking was a normal thing. It happened on the yoke by the lower pivot, where they made a niiiice sharp edge, which is an excellent stress riser. I know of a case (a DH racer TBH...) where 3 swingarms cracked in one season.
2
Noeserd
Posts
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10/21/2020
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TR
1/26/2021 6:35am Edited Date/Time 1/26/2021 6:37am
Edthorne wrote:
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer...
I figured a 38mm boxxer redesign would be coming when they came out with the zeb. It'll be interesting to see if they drop the boxxer, or sell two dual crown forks with different stanchion diameters like they're doing with the lyrik and zeb.
Primoz wrote:
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! :)...
Well... The Boxxer did used to have 32 mm stanchions. And the Pike did as well. And the Sid too come to think of it! Smile

My point being, I can see them growing the Boxxer to 38 mm easy. They are not constrained by model numbers (like Fox and Ohlins), the Boxxer is a staple of the industry, etc.

My question would be, if the Domain is coming back (it's probably gonna be the 'Yari' to the Zeb), is it coming back in a dual crown configuration like it was available back in the day?
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as...
I think there’s already a fork in the zeb lineup called the zeb R or maybe just the Zeb that falls into the same category as the Yari as far as price and damper tech go. Maybe the domain will be a “freeride” or “bike park” marketed dual crown that’ll launch alongside a new 38mm boxxer. Or maybe it’s gonna be an ebike fork...
zeb r is not motion control, it's same as select rc Charger without any adjusts. So there is still room for downgrade

but imo domain will be the cheap dc fork, Rockshox lacks in that category since boxxer went full air
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