MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Zuestman
Posts
193
Joined
10/27/2014
Location
Seattle, WA US
1/22/2021 11:10am
Karabuka wrote:
What about this crazy idea?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUm4urhWGr/
so fundamental issue with the floating brake if I am reading the animation correctly. As the brake is applied and the suspension goes through the travel, it will actually want to make the wheel rotate the WRONG direction. basically trying to make the wheel go backwards instead of forwards. Floating brakes are put on the opposite side of the main pivot for this reason trying to help the wheel rotate forward as you go through the travel and not hang up the wheel. Granted my brain may be off on this...but not a fan of what happens with the suspension under braking loads with that.
1
Trocko
Posts
159
Joined
11/23/2010
Location
Rocky, CO US
1/22/2021 11:32am
New Gg trail pistol coming

My guess is a lighter frame

1
Trocko
Posts
159
Joined
11/23/2010
Location
Rocky, CO US
1/22/2021 11:56am
Trocko wrote:
New Gg trail pistol coming My guess is a lighter frame [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/22/10424/s1200_2B1701A3_AAE7_4E37_BDE4_595047D4CFEC.jpg[/img]
New Gg trail pistol coming

My guess is a lighter frame

And smash


AndehM
Posts
665
Joined
5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
1/22/2021 12:38pm
GG has posted some hints over on RideMonkey: slight geo tweaks to both... little bit lower BB, little bit longer CS, and The Smash being changed to 140mm standard (might be 150 with 62.5mm stroke - TBD). My money's on them getting the SRAM UDH also like the Gnarvana.
2
Primoz
Posts
4587
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/22/2021 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 1/22/2021 1:07pm
Karabuka wrote:
What about this crazy idea?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUm4urhWGr/
Also re Zuestman

Might be flexy (two slim pivots on a long structure, granted, it could be triangulated), heavy, the loads are very one-sided with the shock only on one side. With bikes needing to be relatively light and still stiff and strong, triangulation is your friend. This goes against that completely.

The floating brake link appears to be completely parallel, so there should be no braking influence, except the system dropping into the travel during braking because of the rearward axle path, which the braking force on the ground would pull back. It doesn't matter if the link is above or below, it's the rotation of the brake link that matters.

And I'm not really sure you'd want that small of a radius on the arc of the axle path... Due to long swingarms used on bikes the arcs have a much longer radius. With the swingarm being longer and all Smile
Such a short arc makes the suspension behave differently in different parts of the travel though in this case at zero travel and sag you have a lot of rearward travel with more or less vertical travel deep in the travel. Which is actually something that makes sense (good small bump sensitivity over rocks/roots and very vertical response on larger hits, which are usually drops and the like).
1
AndehM
Posts
665
Joined
5/7/2018
Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
1/22/2021 2:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/22/2021 2:08pm
Maxxis has an incomplete page up for the Shorty Gen 2:
https://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-593-140-shorty-gen-2#
"After gathering years of data and feedback from our World Cup Downhill and Enduro World Series athletes, the Shorty is completely new for 2021. The knob layout has been altered to improve wet traction, cornering performance, and mud shedding abilities. The narrower 2.40" casing improves frame and fork clearance for when things get really sloppy and reduces weight."
1
1/22/2021 7:59pm
AndehM wrote:
Maxxis has an incomplete page up for the Shorty Gen 2: https://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-593-140-shorty-gen-2# "After gathering years of data and feedback from our World Cup Downhill and Enduro...
Maxxis has an incomplete page up for the Shorty Gen 2:
https://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-593-140-shorty-gen-2#
"After gathering years of data and feedback from our World Cup Downhill and Enduro World Series athletes, the Shorty is completely new for 2021. The knob layout has been altered to improve wet traction, cornering performance, and mud shedding abilities. The narrower 2.40" casing improves frame and fork clearance for when things get really sloppy and reduces weight."
Man I have been waiting on this tire so I can hopefully stop warping conti barons and needing to replace a tire with lots of tread left
1/23/2021 6:51am
Trocko wrote:
Jeff teasing the prototype intense enduro bike. Sounds like it’s coming close to or already in final stages.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUJs4JhxeH/?igshid=gqotq14ipnlz
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/01/21/10417/s1200_13A49C44_95CC_4E99_8F87_2F76AD6F1F9E.jpg[/img]

Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for the tazer).
1/23/2021 8:37am
Nico_Hrndz wrote:
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for...
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for the tazer).
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost a lot of OG fans. Bummer alloy is gone for consumers 😟
1
Barry
Posts
10
Joined
10/27/2018
Location
US
1/23/2021 10:10am
Bike Jeff is teasing will be the new tracer, and i think mixed wheel sixes
metadave
Posts
1249
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
1/23/2021 4:51pm
Nico_Hrndz wrote:
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for...
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for the tazer).
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost...
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost a lot of OG fans. Bummer alloy is gone for consumers 😟
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became a victim of the geometry games over the last few years. I'm not sure if they were behind the ball hard theast two years or they were waiting for the baseline geo to firm up (77°/64° seems to be the median) before finishing the new bikes after not completely sticking the new Primer. Hopefully the new bike is everything they need to come back swinging.

Anyone know how their Knolly lawsuit is going?
Trocko
Posts
159
Joined
11/23/2010
Location
Rocky, CO US
1/23/2021 5:08pm
Nico_Hrndz wrote:
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for...
Last time Jeff teased a bike showing pictures of an aluminium prototype, the production carbon bike got released just a few weeks after (that was for the tazer).
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost...
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost a lot of OG fans. Bummer alloy is gone for consumers 😟
metadave wrote:
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became...
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became a victim of the geometry games over the last few years. I'm not sure if they were behind the ball hard theast two years or they were waiting for the baseline geo to firm up (77°/64° seems to be the median) before finishing the new bikes after not completely sticking the new Primer. Hopefully the new bike is everything they need to come back swinging.

Anyone know how their Knolly lawsuit is going?
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages but nothing seems eye popping


metadave
Posts
1249
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
Fantasy
1/23/2021 7:01pm
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost...
Hopefully its rad. Frankly, intense no longer interest me. I had a Tracer 2 and it was awesome. But once they went all carbon they lost a lot of OG fans. Bummer alloy is gone for consumers 😟
metadave wrote:
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became...
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became a victim of the geometry games over the last few years. I'm not sure if they were behind the ball hard theast two years or they were waiting for the baseline geo to firm up (77°/64° seems to be the median) before finishing the new bikes after not completely sticking the new Primer. Hopefully the new bike is everything they need to come back swinging.

Anyone know how their Knolly lawsuit is going?
Trocko wrote:
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages...
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages but nothing seems eye popping


Of that's the case, it was DOA
1
Primoz
Posts
4587
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/24/2021 1:38am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2021 1:39am
Intense has been really conservative on the geometries for a while now...

BTW; top left corner, it says 2019.
1
Suns_PSD
Posts
369
Joined
10/7/2015
Location
Austin, TX US
1/24/2021 11:30am
Im curious, are those idler wheels THAT inefficient? Are we talking like the extra bit of drag from a gearbox vs standard system or like belt...
Im curious, are those idler wheels THAT inefficient? Are we talking like the extra bit of drag from a gearbox vs standard system or like belt drive vs chain? Exactly how much less efficient is an idler system?
Kavenz told me that a standard modern drivetrain is 99% efficient and that adding the HP drops this to 98% efficient. They followed that up with the statement "it's a design suited to Enduro racing where climbing times are not a priority".

It was a helpful point as it made it clear to me that for a trail bike, even a very aggressive one, I don't want an HP bike.

For a DH bike, it's the only way to go imo.
1
durietz
Posts
6
Joined
12/13/2017
Location
ES
1/24/2021 11:50am
Suns_PSD wrote:
Kavenz told me that a standard modern drivetrain is 99% efficient and that adding the HP drops this to 98% efficient. They followed that up with...
Kavenz told me that a standard modern drivetrain is 99% efficient and that adding the HP drops this to 98% efficient. They followed that up with the statement "it's a design suited to Enduro racing where climbing times are not a priority".

It was a helpful point as it made it clear to me that for a trail bike, even a very aggressive one, I don't want an HP bike.

For a DH bike, it's the only way to go imo.
Then again, I would think not oiling or cleaning your chain or having your gears set up a bit off (80% of people) just as well brings that efficiency down a couple of %. And add to that bearing wear, tire choice, aerodynamics, etc. and I think it's very silly to be worried about the extra drag of 1 cogwheel if you're not a pro XC racer.
6
Suns_PSD
Posts
369
Joined
10/7/2015
Location
Austin, TX US
1/24/2021 12:25pm Edited Date/Time 1/25/2021 11:45am
My opinion is that if HP didn't have notable downsides it would be much more commonplace. The PB staff has stated in their Podcasts that the drag is real and noticeable. If HP truly doubles driveline drag, that's significant.

HP is the holy grail as far as suspension performance goes. But in terms of efficiency, weight, cost & maintenance it obviously has some Cons. For me, the only one of those I care about is the efficiency but it's a big one and I'm definitely no Pro XC racer.


1
durietz
Posts
6
Joined
12/13/2017
Location
ES
1/24/2021 12:53pm
I'm not so sure it's the holy grail. All suspension design has compromises and the lack of anti-squat is a problem when pedaling. So even if transmission efficiency was the same it's hard to avoid pedal bob.
1/24/2021 1:51pm
metadave wrote:
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became...
I had the current gen tracer and rode the current gen carbine a long side quite a bit and they were fantastic bikes, but quickly became a victim of the geometry games over the last few years. I'm not sure if they were behind the ball hard theast two years or they were waiting for the baseline geo to firm up (77°/64° seems to be the median) before finishing the new bikes after not completely sticking the new Primer. Hopefully the new bike is everything they need to come back swinging.

Anyone know how their Knolly lawsuit is going?
Trocko wrote:
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages...
Jeff posted this today that has some geo numbers on the sheet. 65 ht angle and 76 seat tube. Could be old numbers for prototype stages but nothing seems eye popping


metadave wrote:
Of that's the case, it was DOA
I’m sure I’ll get some hate for this but besides seat tube angle, I think most people are running/wanting too slack and long of a bike. Enduro magazine (a solid European mtb publication) did a test of what most ews riders are on and found many of the riders ranging from 5’10” to 6’2” were all on bikes with ~65° head angles and <465mm reach numbers. Granted these guys aren’t the normal rider but the magazine reviewers (much closer to a “normal” rider) tested each bike and despite all of them 6’-6’4” in height they all had their fastest time on a medium SB150 (Richie Rude’s exact race setup with 760 bars too). My point being from all this that even if that intense proto’s geo is what makes production, it’ll still be a ripping bike but mtb publications and marketing will make you believe the headangle is a degree and a half too steep and the seat angle is a degree too slack so you might as well send it to the landfill and buy their extraslacc, mega reachtastic, 93° SA Cadillac of a bike that will absolutely suck at everything besides fast, wide open descents with minimal cornering.
10
2
Primoz
Posts
4587
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/24/2021 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 1/24/2021 2:16pm
Regarding high pivot and efficiencies, it SURE AS HELL is _NOT_ 99 %. It might be for a clean, lubricated chain, that is perfectly in line and has two big sprockets. There is more than 1 % of driveline losses observed on road bikes, where the chains are usually cleaner than on MTB. Then you have the factor of the angled chain, etc. The efficiency is lower than 99 %.

Then the efficiency is dependant on sprocket size, as it's determined by the amount of link rotation - smaller sprockets, more rotation, more losses. That's why roadies use oversized pulleys in rear derailleurs. To lower the link articulation (and to spin the bearings slower too). The 99 % and 98 % are just a number, I'm confident in that even without any tests performed, based off logic and based off other friction tests (where losses, as mentioned, are over 1 % on standard drivetrains, it's more like 3 %).

Regarding HPP and idler issues, I think it could be solved with a bit of a paradigm shift. Coupled with a gearbox (with a non-concentric output compared to the BB axle) it's a non-issue (except for the drag in the gearbox). There will probably be a lot of development in this area, but 15T idlers are a simple first solution, not the ideal solution.

The lack of antisquat is also not true, why wouldn't it have antisquat? You can design negative or hugely positive antisquat characteristic in basically any suspension design, with idlers it's even easier if anything. It's just the idler position, if it's mounted to the front triangle (it gets complicated mounted to the swingarm or link, but more or less the same). The catch is with chain driven vehicles there are two antisquat components, one from the suspension geometry and the other from the chain. The chain pulling the suspension around gives you a certain level (adds antisquat with most standard layouts), while I'm not up to speed with the values, it's possible you have to take away the AS with the chain on high pivot bikes, depending on the pivot height. Because you also have the geometric antisquat, derived from the suspension geometry. If the pivot point (instant centre for multilink suspensions) is below the rear axle, you will get induced squat. If the pivot is above it (high pivot), you will get jacking when providing power to the rear wheel as it will want to fold under the BB.

So high pivot bikes have high inherent antisquat from the geometry with the chain fine tuning that. With standard layouts, you usually have low antisquat values with the chain adding a lot of it to make things work.

As for the angles, I'll leave alone the headangle as I have some thoughts on that that I would like to try out at some point if possible, but steep seat tube angles are a god send. Caveat, I'm tall, I'm 190 cm (6ft 3 or something) and I ride a 522 mm reach XL bike. I was previously on a Large Reign 2015, which was too small, but crucially, the seat tube angle was very slack (sub 70° actual). With tall riders, with the seat raised, the bent seat tubes give you a VERY slack actual angle, throwing you off the back, pedaling forwards, not downwards. So steep angles FTW. The issue with that is that you still need a given top tube length, otherwise you'll be cramped pedalling. Sure, loads of people say 'I don't care how it pedals, it has to rip on the downs'. Cool. Buy a DH bike. If you pedal your bike, you spend 90 % of a ride pedalling it (except when shuttling, where... DH bike argument). You adapt the fit to the largest percentage, it's the only thing that makes sense. So with steep seat tube angles, you get long reaches for decent top tube values.

Here's a kicker. Privateers and Poles are insanely short in the largest sizes! In the cockpit length metric. The largest Privateer is between the M and M/L size of my Bird in regards to the top tube length. And I've sat on an L version of my Bird and it's insanely short (though admittedly I'm used to a long bike...). I will be testing an XL Hightower (the XXL is very identical to my XL) to test things out, but yeah... Maybe people want a too slack bike, but most people buy bikes that are too small/short. Seen time and time again.

Yeah, longer bikes are a bit more cumbersome. Going from the Giant to the Bird I gained 75 mm on the wheelbase and 29" wheels. It is noticeable ont he really tight stuff (between the trees), but overall the performance of the bike is MUCH better allround. Even on the climbs. And tight switchbacks are not a case of an impossibility on the Bird and easy on the Giant, I just actually started to learn to do front pivots, otherwise it's kinda the same. The main disadvantage I found is relatively tight (180°) berms, where the angle of attack because of the larger wheels and the longer wheelbase changes so much, that I feel my front wheel trying to fold under me. But we're talking about a hairpin over a width of less than 4 meters, so REALLY tight and smooth berms.
1/24/2021 3:05pm
Primoz wrote:
Regarding high pivot and efficiencies, it SURE AS HELL is _NOT_ 99 %. It might be for a clean, lubricated chain, that is perfectly in line...
Regarding high pivot and efficiencies, it SURE AS HELL is _NOT_ 99 %. It might be for a clean, lubricated chain, that is perfectly in line and has two big sprockets. There is more than 1 % of driveline losses observed on road bikes, where the chains are usually cleaner than on MTB. Then you have the factor of the angled chain, etc. The efficiency is lower than 99 %.

Then the efficiency is dependant on sprocket size, as it's determined by the amount of link rotation - smaller sprockets, more rotation, more losses. That's why roadies use oversized pulleys in rear derailleurs. To lower the link articulation (and to spin the bearings slower too). The 99 % and 98 % are just a number, I'm confident in that even without any tests performed, based off logic and based off other friction tests (where losses, as mentioned, are over 1 % on standard drivetrains, it's more like 3 %).

Regarding HPP and idler issues, I think it could be solved with a bit of a paradigm shift. Coupled with a gearbox (with a non-concentric output compared to the BB axle) it's a non-issue (except for the drag in the gearbox). There will probably be a lot of development in this area, but 15T idlers are a simple first solution, not the ideal solution.

The lack of antisquat is also not true, why wouldn't it have antisquat? You can design negative or hugely positive antisquat characteristic in basically any suspension design, with idlers it's even easier if anything. It's just the idler position, if it's mounted to the front triangle (it gets complicated mounted to the swingarm or link, but more or less the same). The catch is with chain driven vehicles there are two antisquat components, one from the suspension geometry and the other from the chain. The chain pulling the suspension around gives you a certain level (adds antisquat with most standard layouts), while I'm not up to speed with the values, it's possible you have to take away the AS with the chain on high pivot bikes, depending on the pivot height. Because you also have the geometric antisquat, derived from the suspension geometry. If the pivot point (instant centre for multilink suspensions) is below the rear axle, you will get induced squat. If the pivot is above it (high pivot), you will get jacking when providing power to the rear wheel as it will want to fold under the BB.

So high pivot bikes have high inherent antisquat from the geometry with the chain fine tuning that. With standard layouts, you usually have low antisquat values with the chain adding a lot of it to make things work.

As for the angles, I'll leave alone the headangle as I have some thoughts on that that I would like to try out at some point if possible, but steep seat tube angles are a god send. Caveat, I'm tall, I'm 190 cm (6ft 3 or something) and I ride a 522 mm reach XL bike. I was previously on a Large Reign 2015, which was too small, but crucially, the seat tube angle was very slack (sub 70° actual). With tall riders, with the seat raised, the bent seat tubes give you a VERY slack actual angle, throwing you off the back, pedaling forwards, not downwards. So steep angles FTW. The issue with that is that you still need a given top tube length, otherwise you'll be cramped pedalling. Sure, loads of people say 'I don't care how it pedals, it has to rip on the downs'. Cool. Buy a DH bike. If you pedal your bike, you spend 90 % of a ride pedalling it (except when shuttling, where... DH bike argument). You adapt the fit to the largest percentage, it's the only thing that makes sense. So with steep seat tube angles, you get long reaches for decent top tube values.

Here's a kicker. Privateers and Poles are insanely short in the largest sizes! In the cockpit length metric. The largest Privateer is between the M and M/L size of my Bird in regards to the top tube length. And I've sat on an L version of my Bird and it's insanely short (though admittedly I'm used to a long bike...). I will be testing an XL Hightower (the XXL is very identical to my XL) to test things out, but yeah... Maybe people want a too slack bike, but most people buy bikes that are too small/short. Seen time and time again.

Yeah, longer bikes are a bit more cumbersome. Going from the Giant to the Bird I gained 75 mm on the wheelbase and 29" wheels. It is noticeable ont he really tight stuff (between the trees), but overall the performance of the bike is MUCH better allround. Even on the climbs. And tight switchbacks are not a case of an impossibility on the Bird and easy on the Giant, I just actually started to learn to do front pivots, otherwise it's kinda the same. The main disadvantage I found is relatively tight (180°) berms, where the angle of attack because of the larger wheels and the longer wheelbase changes so much, that I feel my front wheel trying to fold under me. But we're talking about a hairpin over a width of less than 4 meters, so REALLY tight and smooth berms.
In response to the angle discussion: from my own experience, at 6’-0” (183cm) I’ve had my fastest race results and strava times on a bike with a sub 465mm reach (Large mullet GT force, same 150F, 150R setup that maes and masters run). Also spent a lot of time on an S4 spesh enduro (487mm reach) and find that its draining to try and ride hard on anything that’s not a DH race course or flow trail. Also have a GT Sensor 29 size M (445mm reach, 1200ish wheelbase) and at 6’ that bike still feels like a stable and confident descender while being super fun on tight, wind-y, and rolling terrain. Also forgot to include this link earlier to the enduro mag article but it’s worth a read as they had 4 testers that all had faster times on smaller bikes than they’d typically ride, despite not feeling as comfortable on them ( https://enduro-mtb.com/en/enduro-race-bike-mtb-review/ ) It’s also worth mentioning that the slowest bike on test was a size large commencal meta AM which they claimed felt imbalanced due to the long reach paired to a relatively short Chainstay (which doesn’t prove much since a longer set of stays could help this) but this article definitely does raise some interesting questions and observations. IMO it seems like bike geo across the industry peaked for enduro/trail performance around 2018 and then dipped a bit too deep into DH bike territory in 2019/2020. I think we’ll see geometry get somewhat stagnant or see a lot of enduro bikes start getting labeled as freeride/park bikes while all mountain makes a comeback as the most popular genre because they’ll just resemble the do it all enduro bikes of 2017-2018. I feel like the next 5 years of bike dev will mainly involve refining suspension linkage design and optimizing frame flex/stiffness while keeping the strength high and lowering the weight.
3
1/24/2021 3:19pm
In response to the angle discussion: from my own experience, at 6’-0” (183cm) I’ve had my fastest race results and strava times on a bike with...
In response to the angle discussion: from my own experience, at 6’-0” (183cm) I’ve had my fastest race results and strava times on a bike with a sub 465mm reach (Large mullet GT force, same 150F, 150R setup that maes and masters run). Also spent a lot of time on an S4 spesh enduro (487mm reach) and find that its draining to try and ride hard on anything that’s not a DH race course or flow trail. Also have a GT Sensor 29 size M (445mm reach, 1200ish wheelbase) and at 6’ that bike still feels like a stable and confident descender while being super fun on tight, wind-y, and rolling terrain. Also forgot to include this link earlier to the enduro mag article but it’s worth a read as they had 4 testers that all had faster times on smaller bikes than they’d typically ride, despite not feeling as comfortable on them ( https://enduro-mtb.com/en/enduro-race-bike-mtb-review/ ) It’s also worth mentioning that the slowest bike on test was a size large commencal meta AM which they claimed felt imbalanced due to the long reach paired to a relatively short Chainstay (which doesn’t prove much since a longer set of stays could help this) but this article definitely does raise some interesting questions and observations. IMO it seems like bike geo across the industry peaked for enduro/trail performance around 2018 and then dipped a bit too deep into DH bike territory in 2019/2020. I think we’ll see geometry get somewhat stagnant or see a lot of enduro bikes start getting labeled as freeride/park bikes while all mountain makes a comeback as the most popular genre because they’ll just resemble the do it all enduro bikes of 2017-2018. I feel like the next 5 years of bike dev will mainly involve refining suspension linkage design and optimizing frame flex/stiffness while keeping the strength high and lowering the weight.
I just made my large Sensor into a mullet. I am stoked to try it out once the snow is melting. How do you like the mullet Force? I agree that bikes are very long and slack now. Enduro Mag definitely prefers agility over neverending stability. Some seem to love the big long boat bikes while others don't. The 470 seems to be my sweet spot
1
1/24/2021 4:20pm
In response to the angle discussion: from my own experience, at 6’-0” (183cm) I’ve had my fastest race results and strava times on a bike with...
In response to the angle discussion: from my own experience, at 6’-0” (183cm) I’ve had my fastest race results and strava times on a bike with a sub 465mm reach (Large mullet GT force, same 150F, 150R setup that maes and masters run). Also spent a lot of time on an S4 spesh enduro (487mm reach) and find that its draining to try and ride hard on anything that’s not a DH race course or flow trail. Also have a GT Sensor 29 size M (445mm reach, 1200ish wheelbase) and at 6’ that bike still feels like a stable and confident descender while being super fun on tight, wind-y, and rolling terrain. Also forgot to include this link earlier to the enduro mag article but it’s worth a read as they had 4 testers that all had faster times on smaller bikes than they’d typically ride, despite not feeling as comfortable on them ( https://enduro-mtb.com/en/enduro-race-bike-mtb-review/ ) It’s also worth mentioning that the slowest bike on test was a size large commencal meta AM which they claimed felt imbalanced due to the long reach paired to a relatively short Chainstay (which doesn’t prove much since a longer set of stays could help this) but this article definitely does raise some interesting questions and observations. IMO it seems like bike geo across the industry peaked for enduro/trail performance around 2018 and then dipped a bit too deep into DH bike territory in 2019/2020. I think we’ll see geometry get somewhat stagnant or see a lot of enduro bikes start getting labeled as freeride/park bikes while all mountain makes a comeback as the most popular genre because they’ll just resemble the do it all enduro bikes of 2017-2018. I feel like the next 5 years of bike dev will mainly involve refining suspension linkage design and optimizing frame flex/stiffness while keeping the strength high and lowering the weight.
I just made my large Sensor into a mullet. I am stoked to try it out once the snow is melting. How do you like the...
I just made my large Sensor into a mullet. I am stoked to try it out once the snow is melting. How do you like the mullet Force? I agree that bikes are very long and slack now. Enduro Mag definitely prefers agility over neverending stability. Some seem to love the big long boat bikes while others don't. The 470 seems to be my sweet spot
Mullet force is really good at being a missile downhill but still being a good trail bike. I’ve thrown my mullet wheels on my medium sensor (high setting with a 150 fork) and that thing is an absolute blast. Corners better than anything I’ve ever ridden and is super quick/nimble. The mullet setup inspires a feeling of confidence that you’ll never go front heavy which had me doing things I shouldn’t have been on that bike (overshot a 12 foot drop to flat landing 16 feet below takeoff and bending shock bolt in the process... but the frame is fine) might not be as good for all around trail riding as a full 29 setup if you have technical terrain but for steep stuff or for features/bike park style riding the mullet sensor is amazing.

mullet wheel setups in general are really awesome too, I’ve ridden my buddy’s specialized demo race which is a mullet (same setup as Bruni) and the cornering ability of mixed bikes is unmatched. So much front end grip paired with a nimble little back end means you can come thru turns at Mach 10, kick the rear end out, and then hook back up without losing any speed
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1/24/2021 6:19pm
Awesome friend i cant wait to get the Sensor out on the trails!
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trpfanboy
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1/24/2021 7:14pm
out of left field, but was there ever any follow up (I might have missed it) about the proto Norco that Henry Fitzgerald and co were running at the Crankworx Summer Series? Obviously the Shore was their big release, but I find it hard to believe that they were racing a freeride 27.5 bike at an enduro/dh type event.
Primoz
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SI
1/24/2021 10:58pm
Apparently component shortages have pushed back many bike releases. The Norco should have been released in the past fall already.

As for geometries, to play the devil's advocate, my 4th ride on the ultra long bike, just riding along, getting to know the bike, was 4 seconds of my PB on my local trail. From that point on PBs and KOMs started falling. So... And it's a 150 mm bike BTW.
But notice that I never mentioned racing, I specifically mentioned pedalling. Meaning general riding, which is something most people tend to do.
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1/25/2021 6:40am
My previous gen Hightower has a 65 mm stem and is up forked. It feels extremely similar to the current gen Hightower when riding straight lines. I prefer how my bike corners in flat corners. I prefer how my bike climbs. But once you get descending on a actual bike trail the new one feels better. Especially if it’s steep or rough or riding platform pedals.

The recent sb115 vs spur does a pretty good job of
Highlighting the pros and cons of modern geo. I think more conservative numbers are really great if you don’t have a lot of elevation change or care as much about the ups as you do the downs. But modern geo is just much better at going down. I do think there is a limit to how long you want to make a bike. I would also say that for hard tails I do not like modern geo at all. I’m riding way off the back if it’s steep or rough to use my legs as suspension. I feel way too stretched out as a result.
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