I thought Claudio's comment was a bit odd, but English is a second language. He could just be nervous about explaining something after the whole Rachel comment last year.
While there is definitely the possibility of doping, does anyone really make enough money and would it help that much to justify it? I can't imagine a doping program that can beat testing is cheap and there isn't a whole lot of cash in DH or enduro...
To me there's Gwin then Minnaar and Troy, and then there's everyone else who is a large step back. That group of three look so composed and effortless on the bike compared to the others who have podium level performances. Sure, Hart, Greenland, Bulldog, Luca, Moir, Loris, Bruni, etc. can put down a great run and be on the top step, but they look like they are over the edge and just managed to hang on. Gwin has that Minnaar type vibe where he looks fast but nothing crazy and then the split comes up and he's 2 seconds up. It's really incredible. I get the euros may not like it, but sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the greatness.
Rumors that haunt Gwin or others are likely just that. But people on the inside often raise the question because the rumors have grown to a fever pitch, and well beyond the resentful comments of haters.
In cycling, I'm wary of assumed innocence nearly as much as I am of assumed guilt! There is plenty of precedent for Europeans knowing something that the public at large doesn't when it comes to successful American bikers. Sure, Gwin has a camera crew film his workouts, but that's just PR - not proof...
Im not claiming anything, just curious why Claudio would have said that...
I just did some searching on UCI Doping regulations. In there they talk about target testing, which selects riders to be tested for things like, former doping infractions, a higher than historical performance, third party tips, and for consistently being on the top.
From that, I feel safe in assuming that Gwin, Minnaar, Brosnan, Hart and Bruni are tested more frequently than most riders, which would make it much harder for them to get away with it. And since any doping scandal will hurt the UCI as much or more than it will hurt the rider, it is in the UCI's best interest to do everything they logically can to prevent or punish doping.
I think that Claudio's comment was more of his sometimes off sense of humor, similar to him saying that Rachael was going to retire last year.
Since we are going a bit off the rails here, my $0.02 about doping
Road: Duh. Very little skill that can't otherwise be learned. Your goal is basically to become a cy-borg, (pun intented). Of course all forms of doping helps here when the whole point is to see how much power you can put out for how long.
XC: Duh. Again. Like road. Only with fatter tires.
BMX/4X: There was a certain Trek athlete from back in the day who all but admitted to doping, it took him from being a mediocre BMX racer to THE BMX racer at the time. Getting out in front and explosiveness is a huge variable, doping can help this!
Enduro: It wouldn't hurt to take EPO or straight blood dope, maybe some amphetamine late in the day. But it'd matter very little if you can't already ride like Sam Hill. (who most certainly is not doping) So yeah, I think it could be a factor, especially when races are decided by so little, but the cool part is I'd say the better bike handler is still going to win. Especially with how the courses are going (uber technial).
DH: There is way too much talent/skill involved to dope your way into the sport. You could take everything in the world and if you already aren't a top 10 guy, you won't be. Now, if a top 10 guy took something, just in the right amount at the right time, it'd help. For sure. Races are decided by too little for it NOT to help. I've heard of a certain French rider having taken illegal substances, but no way I'll mention his name. He was a top dude. Is it true? Did it matter? I don't know.
There is enough money to warrant it. Hell, we've seen plenty of cases where there is no money (relatively) and there is STILL doping in the sport. (rec level stuff - not kidding)
I'd wager a few guys on the fringe have tried something to gain an edge at some point. Its friggin' racing after all. Its how it goes. Everyone is *always* looking for an edge.
Back to the topic at hand, are the top guys today doing anything illegal? Is Gwin? Naw. Like Spomer said, MSA in the rain, chainless wins etc only happen with incredible amounts of talent, no drug (I've heard of) can give you that.
I think you guys need to look at it more from the amphetamine side where these guys don't need to be "cy-borgs," we can all train to sprint 5 minutes, but it's the drugs that help you concentrate and slow down a race run where the big advantage is. Furthermore, these guys can get a TUE to take it legally!
Dh is part of uci so I'm pretty sure the regulations regarding doping and inspections are the same as for roadies, if you get busted this is pretty much it. I happen to live in a country where a guy lost national dh title after failing doping test more than 10 years ago - THC :D And I remember samples were being taken at a national 4x race I raced, again almost 10 years ago. Considering how big doping became in biking, especially with Lance, I'd say everything is more strict these days.
And I can confirm what jeff said about amateurs, its already beyond absurd what people are willing to do in order to win amateur race or get KOM on strava...
At the risk of sounding like I'm throwing yet more shade on Gwin's supremacy, I think it's naive if we think that drugs only benefit "endurance" athletes, and won't provide an advantage on a DH track. Every one of these athletes talk about how muscle/aerobic fatigue strikes at the middle or end of the track. Fitness and conditioning is constantly being brought up - and outside of technology - probably the biggest reason that the sport has progressed so much on the elite level. More athletes are talking up their offseason regimen as being a key to their success.
To think that drugs wouldn't give one biker an edge over another when the margins are tenths of a second...? I don't buy it.
Drugs (legal and banned) have infiltrated just about every sport on just about every level. And designing cocktails that are Times to avoid detection has been elevated to an art form!
I've seen nearly all of my childhood roadie heroes disgraced. I guess I'm just cynical enough not to rule it out in the realm of the MTB...
Sorry, I know this is even more unrelated, but I just stumbled on this old video of Gwin and Eli throwing down in Colorado. Its semi-fitting to post in here only because Eli (should have) won (and was completely robbed) this weekend and Gwin obviously did his thing.
Claudio knocked his head pretty hard. Gwin picked up a mountain bike and was wc ready in under two years. If you think dope will do that for a rider you are one hell of a lot higher than me
Claudio knocked his head pretty hard. Gwin picked up a mountain bike and was wc ready in under two years. If you think dope will do...
Claudio knocked his head pretty hard. Gwin picked up a mountain bike and was wc ready in under two years. If you think dope will do that for a rider you are one hell of a lot higher than me
Claudio knocked his head pretty hard. Gwin picked up a mountain bike and was wc ready in under two years. If you think dope will do...
Claudio knocked his head pretty hard. Gwin picked up a mountain bike and was wc ready in under two years. If you think dope will do that for a rider you are one hell of a lot higher than me
There is one class of drugs that I don't think that the UCI even tests for that are ABSOLUTELY performance enhancing and that's psychedelics. I've done things on some good clean liquid LSD that I would never even begin to contemplate while not tripping, including on the bike. Like the time coming down the single track from Wadel falls north of Santa Cruz. I was trail riding my downhill bike so that a friend could ride my trail bike. I decided to grab on to the fork tubes between the triple clamps instead of the handlebars and proceeded to shred down the trail mostly in a manual, ripping turns and hitting jumps.
I know of one former champ who is a big fan of the acid. Whether it was ever used in a racing situation I'm not sure.
gotta agree w/ gwin winning chainless and MSA in the wet...all skill, passion, fire to win. not drugs.
Agreed. I bet most of the top racers can do basically the same stuff in the gym, have similar grip strength, VO2max, etc. Performance enhancing drugs aren't going to make you look so cool and composed at mach chicken like Gwin or Minnaar do. IF Gwin were doping, I'd think his winning runs would look like he'd just smoked a bunch of PCP - brute strength to hold on for dear life and just pedal like a bastard and no regard for line choice. But that's not the case.
Seems like an obvious project for Vital though - give Brandon Turman some drugs and see what happens. Better yet, give 'em to Boris.
At any rate, if someone's gonna talk about Gwin doping because he wins so often, make sure to talk about Rachel Atherton, too.
Hey, lookie there, a dead horse. Let's flog it!!!
There is one class of drugs that I don't think that the UCI even tests for that...
Hey, lookie there, a dead horse. Let's flog it!!!
There is one class of drugs that I don't think that the UCI even tests for that are ABSOLUTELY performance enhancing and that's psychedelics. I've done things on some good clean liquid LSD that I would never even begin to contemplate while not tripping, including on the bike. Like the time coming down the single track from Wadel falls north of Santa Cruz. I was trail riding my downhill bike so that a friend could ride my trail bike. I decided to grab on to the fork tubes between the triple clamps instead of the handlebars and proceeded to shred down the trail mostly in a manual, ripping turns and hitting jumps.
I know of one former champ who is a big fan of the acid. Whether it was ever used in a racing situation I'm not sure.
There's a famous story of a baseball pitcher throwing a no-hitter on acid. Dock Ellis
God, it'd be fucking amazing if Gwin's secret was LSD. I'd respect him even more!
There's absolutely ZERO evidence presented at all about Gwin roiding or being on any other PED. It isn't fair to the man to be accused just because he has a good winning percentage.
If you'd like to throw shade everywhere, then think about how Steve Peat was able to stay competitive up to his forties, considering the median age of the sport is in the mid twenties. Was Peaty doping too?
Fact is, DH is a fringe sport with a type of lifestyle associated with it. Gwin doesn't subscribe to this lifestyle and prefers to work his ass off and follow a professional regimen (including not drinking).
Here are somethings to think about in with all this doping talk going on- PEDs and such aren't the only form of doping in mountain biking. I've heard some pretty dirty details from industry folks about certain athletes getting advantages through the use illegal shuttles and the like. There was another example I heard of where a company sent an athlete to the location of the next round of racing, rented he/them a house for month or so, and since the race area was closed to MOUNTAIN BIKES, got them motos to ride in the area. Another athlete went from consistent mid -pack results to top 10-15 consistently halfway through the season and claimed it was because "he had been spending more time on the bike." Some of the stuff that has gone on is pretty suspect...
Another thing to consider is big sponsors, such as Red Bull. They have money, they have private "training" facilities with top medical staff. They have the resources to create things similar to PEDs, before they can be or are classified as illegal and certainly have the resources to cover it up. This is a mostly baseless claim, but you have to recognize that they certainly have the money and ability to do it. And no one is sponsoring athletes and hoping they'll just get okay results. And there are certain companies who have invested more money than others and are much more concerned with seeing ROI. I certainly believe there is the potential there for certain athletes to be using illicit substances or methods to gain an edge.
Don't kid yourselves. All things being equal a 1% advantage is plenty to win loads of WC DH races. Theres definitely enough money at the top of the sport to pay for it.
It's a spectacular sport, just enjoy it for what it is.
The first round of the 2018 UCi Downhill world cups is in the books and the Losinj showed the closeness of victory and defeat. Even this world cup didn’t end as we hoped we are happy and know that we are close to where we want to be… bring on the 2018 Mercedes UCI worldcup.
music credits:
''The most important are the smallest signs'' by sons of Buddha
Extract from '' Buddha Hates Us All'' https://sonsofbuddha.bandcamp.com
Agreed. I bet most of the top racers can do basically the same stuff in the gym, have similar grip strength, VO2max, etc. Performance enhancing drugs...
Agreed. I bet most of the top racers can do basically the same stuff in the gym, have similar grip strength, VO2max, etc. Performance enhancing drugs aren't going to make you look so cool and composed at mach chicken like Gwin or Minnaar do. IF Gwin were doping, I'd think his winning runs would look like he'd just smoked a bunch of PCP - brute strength to hold on for dear life and just pedal like a bastard and no regard for line choice. But that's not the case.
Seems like an obvious project for Vital though - give Brandon Turman some drugs and see what happens. Better yet, give 'em to Boris.
At any rate, if someone's gonna talk about Gwin doping because he wins so often, make sure to talk about Rachel Atherton, too.
Jeez theres some pretty full on doping claims regarding some high profile riders in this thread. Seems to be zero evidence to back up the accusations. I'd be pretty careful whether any lines are being crossed if I were Vitals management/moderators....
Jeez theres some pretty full on doping claims regarding some high profile riders in this thread. Seems to be zero evidence to back up the accusations...
Jeez theres some pretty full on doping claims regarding some high profile riders in this thread. Seems to be zero evidence to back up the accusations. I'd be pretty careful whether any lines are being crossed if I were Vitals management/moderators....
"Full on doping claims" ??
Don't be a drama queen. There have been a grand total of ZERO claims, ZERO accusations. Just questions and conversation - as is entirely appropriate on this forum! It's fair to wonder aloud about Claudio's cryptic comment.
Doping is a scourge on modern sport. It's always an important and relevant topic.
Is the "line crossed" when voices are raised above private whispers...? That's a pretty weak line.
There's been talk that Gwin and Rude have been on the juice for years. Who knows?
I'm no fan but I think he rode really smart...
There's been talk that Gwin and Rude have been on the juice for years. Who knows?
I'm no fan but I think he rode really smart yesterday to not flat. Probably his most impressive win IMO. Minnaar seemed to be doing the same before he flatted but maybe he was gambling with pressure a little more.
Stoked for Luca Shaw. Seems like a nice kid.
Calling out Rude and Gwin specifically on a public forum around "talk". That seems a bit full on for this drama queen. Posting that type of stuff sticks, true or not. But hey, keep the conversation going based on hearsay, conjecture and the fact that both the dudes mentioned above don't really meet the whole "yew, shred bro! win or lose we on the booze" image that a certain portion of the gravity mtb community seem to have an issue with.
There's been talk that Gwin and Rude have been on the juice for years. Who knows?
I'm no fan but I think he rode really smart...
There's been talk that Gwin and Rude have been on the juice for years. Who knows?
I'm no fan but I think he rode really smart yesterday to not flat. Probably his most impressive win IMO. Minnaar seemed to be doing the same before he flatted but maybe he was gambling with pressure a little more.
Calling out Rude and Gwin specifically on a public forum around "talk". That seems a bit full on for this drama queen. Posting that type of...
Calling out Rude and Gwin specifically on a public forum around "talk". That seems a bit full on for this drama queen. Posting that type of stuff sticks, true or not. But hey, keep the conversation going based on hearsay, conjecture and the fact that both the dudes mentioned above don't really meet the whole "yew, shred bro! win or lose we on the booze" image that a certain portion of the gravity mtb community seem to have an issue with.
Most everything being talked about here is being done in a highly speculative "I doubt it but lets discuss" kind of way. Its called a "forum" for a reason (place to discuss ideas).
If someone was throwing around some hate speech or being a bully, I think Vital can step in. In this case, its pretty good from a self-policing perspective.
The root of what is being discussed is have they been used (which is a fair point), how big of an advantage they'd be, what type might help an athlete and so on.
I'd bet Gwin or Rude could check in here and laugh. I know if I was in either of their shoes I'd be flattered.
Both are *superb* bike handlers, two of the best ever, and they happen to take their training seriously. Outside of that, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting they doping.
Neither one demonstrates physical fitness on an unrealistic cyborg level. Neither seem to be on LCD (but Doc Ellis was awesome - "what happened to yesterday!?"). Neither seem remotely the type to take amphetamines nor do they remotely seem it in an interview. Hence there is literally zero evidence that they are on PEDs. They are just really (really) good. That's awesome.
I was inferring if there are PEDs in the sport (enduro/DH), which I'd bet money there are, they are on the mid pack, trying-to-be-fast-but-never-will-be-level. There are stories of ams doping. I know of guys who did illegal stuff and never touched a podium even at a regional level. Again, its racing. Everyone is looking for *some* edge.
As far as Red Bull "pushing the limit", well, they are Red Bull but they aren't a super-hero-medical-lab. They aren't pushing our understanding of the physical body nor training (last I hearD) But having a few buds who are red bull guys in another sport, I can tell you first hand they aren't doing anything this side of a cryo tank to really do anything "performance enhancing".
I think a more fun point to discuss is how technology can almost be like doping in such a sport. Nico on his V-Process back in the day probably had a bigger impact than anything an athlete could have done from a PED standpoint at the time
-
Just playing devil's advocate. Morally and ethically its completely different, I know, just having fun here...
While there is definitely the possibility of doping, does anyone really make enough money and would it help that much to justify it? I can't imagine a doping program that can beat testing is cheap and there isn't a whole lot of cash in DH or enduro...
To me there's Gwin then Minnaar and Troy, and then there's everyone else who is a large step back. That group of three look so composed and effortless on the bike compared to the others who have podium level performances. Sure, Hart, Greenland, Bulldog, Luca, Moir, Loris, Bruni, etc. can put down a great run and be on the top step, but they look like they are over the edge and just managed to hang on. Gwin has that Minnaar type vibe where he looks fast but nothing crazy and then the split comes up and he's 2 seconds up. It's really incredible. I get the euros may not like it, but sometimes you just need to sit back and enjoy the greatness.
In cycling, I'm wary of assumed innocence nearly as much as I am of assumed guilt! There is plenty of precedent for Europeans knowing something that the public at large doesn't when it comes to successful American bikers. Sure, Gwin has a camera crew film his workouts, but that's just PR - not proof...
Im not claiming anything, just curious why Claudio would have said that...
https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/USDH-ON-FIRE-Croatia-World-Cup…
gotta agree w/ gwin winning chainless and MSA in the wet...all skill, passion, fire to win. not drugs.
From that, I feel safe in assuming that Gwin, Minnaar, Brosnan, Hart and Bruni are tested more frequently than most riders, which would make it much harder for them to get away with it. And since any doping scandal will hurt the UCI as much or more than it will hurt the rider, it is in the UCI's best interest to do everything they logically can to prevent or punish doping.
I think that Claudio's comment was more of his sometimes off sense of humor, similar to him saying that Rachael was going to retire last year.
Road: Duh. Very little skill that can't otherwise be learned. Your goal is basically to become a cy-borg, (pun intented). Of course all forms of doping helps here when the whole point is to see how much power you can put out for how long.
XC: Duh. Again. Like road. Only with fatter tires.
BMX/4X: There was a certain Trek athlete from back in the day who all but admitted to doping, it took him from being a mediocre BMX racer to THE BMX racer at the time. Getting out in front and explosiveness is a huge variable, doping can help this!
Enduro: It wouldn't hurt to take EPO or straight blood dope, maybe some amphetamine late in the day. But it'd matter very little if you can't already ride like Sam Hill. (who most certainly is not doping) So yeah, I think it could be a factor, especially when races are decided by so little, but the cool part is I'd say the better bike handler is still going to win. Especially with how the courses are going (uber technial).
DH: There is way too much talent/skill involved to dope your way into the sport. You could take everything in the world and if you already aren't a top 10 guy, you won't be. Now, if a top 10 guy took something, just in the right amount at the right time, it'd help. For sure. Races are decided by too little for it NOT to help. I've heard of a certain French rider having taken illegal substances, but no way I'll mention his name. He was a top dude. Is it true? Did it matter? I don't know.
There is enough money to warrant it. Hell, we've seen plenty of cases where there is no money (relatively) and there is STILL doping in the sport. (rec level stuff - not kidding)
I'd wager a few guys on the fringe have tried something to gain an edge at some point. Its friggin' racing after all. Its how it goes. Everyone is *always* looking for an edge.
Back to the topic at hand, are the top guys today doing anything illegal? Is Gwin? Naw. Like Spomer said, MSA in the rain, chainless wins etc only happen with incredible amounts of talent, no drug (I've heard of) can give you that.
And I can confirm what jeff said about amateurs, its already beyond absurd what people are willing to do in order to win amateur race or get KOM on strava...
To think that drugs wouldn't give one biker an edge over another when the margins are tenths of a second...? I don't buy it.
Drugs (legal and banned) have infiltrated just about every sport on just about every level. And designing cocktails that are Times to avoid detection has been elevated to an art form!
I've seen nearly all of my childhood roadie heroes disgraced. I guess I'm just cynical enough not to rule it out in the realm of the MTB...
Any chance of a follow on piece reviewing tire/rim protection successes and failures? And how many rims, tires other bits got destroyed?
Not to point at anyone, but I was amazed at the stresses the frames and forks survived when viewing the g-out slide shows.
Thanks in advance!
There is one class of drugs that I don't think that the UCI even tests for that are ABSOLUTELY performance enhancing and that's psychedelics. I've done things on some good clean liquid LSD that I would never even begin to contemplate while not tripping, including on the bike. Like the time coming down the single track from Wadel falls north of Santa Cruz. I was trail riding my downhill bike so that a friend could ride my trail bike. I decided to grab on to the fork tubes between the triple clamps instead of the handlebars and proceeded to shred down the trail mostly in a manual, ripping turns and hitting jumps.
I know of one former champ who is a big fan of the acid. Whether it was ever used in a racing situation I'm not sure.
Seems like an obvious project for Vital though - give Brandon Turman some drugs and see what happens. Better yet, give 'em to Boris.
At any rate, if someone's gonna talk about Gwin doping because he wins so often, make sure to talk about Rachel Atherton, too.
God, it'd be fucking amazing if Gwin's secret was LSD. I'd respect him even more!
If you'd like to throw shade everywhere, then think about how Steve Peat was able to stay competitive up to his forties, considering the median age of the sport is in the mid twenties. Was Peaty doping too?
Fact is, DH is a fringe sport with a type of lifestyle associated with it. Gwin doesn't subscribe to this lifestyle and prefers to work his ass off and follow a professional regimen (including not drinking).
Another thing to consider is big sponsors, such as Red Bull. They have money, they have private "training" facilities with top medical staff. They have the resources to create things similar to PEDs, before they can be or are classified as illegal and certainly have the resources to cover it up. This is a mostly baseless claim, but you have to recognize that they certainly have the money and ability to do it. And no one is sponsoring athletes and hoping they'll just get okay results. And there are certain companies who have invested more money than others and are much more concerned with seeing ROI. I certainly believe there is the potential there for certain athletes to be using illicit substances or methods to gain an edge.
It's a spectacular sport, just enjoy it for what it is.
The first round of the 2018 UCi Downhill world cups is in the books and the Losinj showed the closeness of victory and defeat. Even this world cup didn’t end as we hoped we are happy and know that we are close to where we want to be… bring on the 2018 Mercedes UCI worldcup.
music credits:
''The most important are the smallest signs'' by sons of Buddha
Extract from '' Buddha Hates Us All''
https://sonsofbuddha.bandcamp.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXoRdSTrR-4
Don't be a drama queen. There have been a grand total of ZERO claims, ZERO accusations. Just questions and conversation - as is entirely appropriate on this forum! It's fair to wonder aloud about Claudio's cryptic comment.
Doping is a scourge on modern sport. It's always an important and relevant topic.
Is the "line crossed" when voices are raised above private whispers...? That's a pretty weak line.
If someone was throwing around some hate speech or being a bully, I think Vital can step in. In this case, its pretty good from a self-policing perspective.
The root of what is being discussed is have they been used (which is a fair point), how big of an advantage they'd be, what type might help an athlete and so on.
I'd bet Gwin or Rude could check in here and laugh. I know if I was in either of their shoes I'd be flattered.
Both are *superb* bike handlers, two of the best ever, and they happen to take their training seriously. Outside of that, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting they doping.
Neither one demonstrates physical fitness on an unrealistic cyborg level. Neither seem to be on LCD (but Doc Ellis was awesome - "what happened to yesterday!?"). Neither seem remotely the type to take amphetamines nor do they remotely seem it in an interview. Hence there is literally zero evidence that they are on PEDs. They are just really (really) good. That's awesome.
I was inferring if there are PEDs in the sport (enduro/DH), which I'd bet money there are, they are on the mid pack, trying-to-be-fast-but-never-will-be-level. There are stories of ams doping. I know of guys who did illegal stuff and never touched a podium even at a regional level. Again, its racing. Everyone is looking for *some* edge.
As far as Red Bull "pushing the limit", well, they are Red Bull but they aren't a super-hero-medical-lab. They aren't pushing our understanding of the physical body nor training (last I hearD) But having a few buds who are red bull guys in another sport, I can tell you first hand they aren't doing anything this side of a cryo tank to really do anything "performance enhancing".
I think a more fun point to discuss is how technology can almost be like doping in such a sport. Nico on his V-Process back in the day probably had a bigger impact than anything an athlete could have done from a PED standpoint at the time
Just playing devil's advocate. Morally and ethically its completely different, I know, just having fun here...
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