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1) Tubular tires are one piece, meaning that the insert would be a part of the rubber tire. Maybe that's not where we are at yet, but designing a tire to only be used with an insert is one step away from having both parts of these together.
2) The sidewalls could be made out of XYZ slash-resistant material. Since it's all one bonded piece, the tread, sidewall, and insert could all be made out of whatever material is most appropriate, and then stitched together. As a singular design, it could probably be lighter than if each piece were created separately, and the whole system would be engineered to work together - so sidewalls only have to be as strong as necessary with the insert and whatnot.
3) Tubular tires means tubular specific rims, but if a *gasp* standard for one came out that was designed with these in mind, then maybe a tire company and rim manufacturer could come together to optimize the rim profile to reduce the chance of pinch flats. If you are gluing the tire in place, who cares what the rim shape looks like? As long as it has a bit of a cup, the tire will stay on if the appropriate materials are used.
And yes, if you somehow managed to rip open your tubular tire on EWS race day, you are pretty f*#@ed. Maybe the pros will have to start carrying plugs, although I'm sure many already do. There also have been tubular mountain bike tires already, but just none with a specific insert as described.
This all relies on one tire manufacturer working with one rim manufacturer, which is probably a bit of a long shot unless a company does both (e.g. Bontrager), but it is a possible solution. Is it the only one? No. Is it a viable option? I do not know. Would I, a regular consumer with no EWS/UCI DH aspirations buy one? Heck no, that sounds like a lot of work. But look at cyclocross - they also appear to be a relatively small cycling discipline, and all those pros run tubulars, and some weekend warriors do too.
I think regardless of what the solution is going to be, it's not something that Maxxis, or Cushcore, or DT Swiss can solve themselves - it's going to require some sort of collaboration between all parties involved. The question is, who's already in business meetings together and is the new 'standard' going to be available for others to use or patented for the foreseeable future?
Mountain biking was invented by people thinking about stuff after destroying the other stuff.
We are back on target.
I could see the inserts becoming "Tubes again" but more like "bad ass tubes" that don't have pinch resistance, more are simply impossible to pinch. these tubes would also "support" the tire in a way that previous tube designs never did.
ON a side note, i have been building ghetto tubeless setups for years, and they essentially create a "tubular" effect, and require me to ride with plugs, because i can plug a puncture or small rip and be on my way very easily.
the issue is integration at all levels, which will always cost more, always create internet ire, and ultimately, eventually, solve pesky problems.
IF we can make an insert designed integration, why can't we make a simply better tubeless tire? in my simple mind, i ask that all that weight go into a 175 dollar tire that is FRO. i would never run said tire all season on my little play bike, and it would be heavier butnot require inserts. but come race day, id be stoked. much like we did with old Minion 3c's: we saved them for the good stuff.
As a race only application what you are describing could have some real merits. It certainly hits on the integration aspect with everything being designed to work as a system and literally stuck together!
My concern is that it might be too costly and inconvenient even for top level race teams. Any kind of on site tire changes would be a thing of the past, and teams would simply have to have multiple wheel sets on hand glued up with different tires. That would be possible, but particularly when the races aren't in Europe space and shipping considerations do play a role, especially for the smaller teams.
If the tire and insert are fully bonded together that would make it that much more expensive when then tires wear out, although I suppose that could be gotten around with the re-treading idea I described above.
My biggest concern would be ripping tires off the the rim if they weren't glued properly. It does happen in cross from time to time and the leverage and moment of force being put on the rim/glue interface by a downhill bike, cornering on a high volume, low pressure tire at 50+ km/hr would be much higher than what cyclocross tubulars are exposed to. That said there are all kinds of incredible modern adhesives available, but that might make tire removal into even more of a nightmare than it already is for tubulars.
As much as I am thinking about this from a racer's perspective, I would hope to come up with something that could trickle down into the wider market eventually. That leads me to think that modular system where all the parts are designed to work together as a whole, would ultimately be superior to something that's fully integrated. But like you said, I don't know either.
Having dealt with tubulars a bit in cyclocross racing I'm reluctant to too that route. I can say that I would rather deal with installing an insert any day of the week, particularly on a rim that is designed to work well with it , than spend time gluing and stripping tubular tires!
One really interesting thing those picture seem to show is that the the tread is glued on to a lower portion which is then glued to the rim. That makes me think that maybe the re-treading idea that I mentioned earlier might be more practical that I imagined. Re-treaders could just stock a variety of treads in different compounds and and mixed compounds wouldn't be an issue. When its time to re-tread a tire it would just get a matter of grinding of the old tread until you got to the base material and then bonding the new tread in place. I would imagine that this could be easily accomplished with a little bit of specialized equipment to to apply even pressure to the casing and tread while heat curing and bonding the layers together...
I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but it seems like inserts, and CushCore in particular, offer some real performance benefits that I'm not sure how we can achieve otherwise. If you look at what some of Jeff has described with regards to the way that inserts add progression, bottom out protection, and stability to a tire, that doesn't sound like something that I want to design out of the system. My perspective is much more a mater of looking at them as a missing element from tire/wheel design, and asking now that they are available how we can optimize wheels and tires to work with them.
Anyhow, I'm not trying to shoot down any ideas, I've definitely have my own thoughts about what might work best, but like I said above there's no way to know what would be best until we've tried and failed with a bunch of different approaches.
PS What do you mean when you said that your ghetto tubless setup created a tubular effect? I understand the idea behind ghetto tubeless, but its not something that I have ever done myself so I'm not that familiar with it.
Does anyone know of any tire/rim manufacturers that are under the same parent company? The only one I know of that does both is Trek/Bontrager or Specialized/Roval.
As another commenter mentioned, I do not think the general internet would appreciate another new 'standard' especially if, say, Trek created a proprietary system or held an exclusivity agreement for a while a la the new Thru-Shaft bikes and shocks. I don't think Trek or Specialized necessarily have enough tire selection or distribution volume to have their bikes only able to run just their wheels and tires. This sounds like something everyone, or almost everyone, would have to agree on. It could happen, considering we did something similar with Metric shocks.
I would love to see a three part system where:
1. the tires are tubeless.
2. the insert is a bead locker that actually locks the bead.
3. the rims are made to not destroy the tires, and work in conjunction with the insert
your idea has mad merit.
is the Pro Core not doing this? what if we had a rim that was Pro Core specific?
Are the wheels the actual problem here?
As someone who was kinda fast once, I still regularly turn 1000g and EXO tires into garbage, I ruin rims, and my tires generally squirm all over the place at lower pressures. This leads me to want DH tires on my trail bike, but those too feel like garbage. Jeff's comparison is right on, the DH tire rides like a coil- it's linear. A trail bike sees lower speeds and smaller bumps, so DH tires feel WAAAY too stiff at low speeds. If I let some air out to feel marginally better at low speeds, it folds all to hell or flats at high speeds in turns and on rocks. This means that DH tires are only tolerable on trail bikes as rear tires.
Unfortunately, front and rear inserts are a joke of an idea for anything less than EWS racing: I know they'll save me some flats, but 600g of extra rotating weight? Unless you're one of the tip top guys fighting week in/week out for overall series points, it makes no sense to constantly slow yourself down with heavy ass slow ass wheels. You'll run lighter wheels and gamble.
I see a lot of people running a rear only insert- this seems like the best solution we currently have. DD tires and a rear insert, maybe a front Huck Norris. But even then, it's easy to cut the tread on a DD with a nice sharp rock. Gwin obviously cut his tread on a downhill tire. What I'm trying to say is there's currently no good solution, only a series of compromises that sorta work. Pick your poison.
OK, so I realize now, that I just designed pro core! My thought is to actually integrate that into the tire, so a flexible piece of rubber - similar to inner tube material - is low, closeish to the bead yet still above the rim interface. This can be pressurized high to avoid pinches but the remainder of the tire can be set to a riding pressure. It essentially is a bottom out bumper.
I also found this and thought it was very interesting and quite pertinent (albeit heavy):
https://google.com/patents/US2196814
I'm going to beat the dead horse that is my tubular tire remark, but pretty much only cyclocross pros run tubulars, with only dedicated amateurs and those with enough money/time getting them otherwise. If I get a flat on a ride with friends, I'll just hold them up a bit and we have a chance to talk or grab a drink. I agree that not many people would want to pay extra money for a dedicated and expensive rim/tire setup to get rid of a potential, low-impact problem.
Eventually, sure, there may be a 'cheaper', 'uncuttable/unpinchable/unleakable' tire, but we're trying to specifically solve a 'big' racing problem, and the comparable issue for the average consumer just doesn't matter that much.
600 grams of rotating weight does suck for normal trail riding. No two ways about it. There is a reason I took Cushcore out of my last test bike as racing and bike park became less the focus and trail riding more the focus.
That said, in a race environment, I'd *gladly* take the weight. But maybe that's because my strength is I'm stronger on the gas and my weakness being trusting my bike in corners (EG: Jeff is a lame bike rider). I also struggle with arm pump. This product in the front wheel, specifically, helped me hold better speed through corners while taking the sting off a lot of the trail chatter. I don't care how "big" of a race (meaning how much climbing I have to do), I'm going Cushcore or similar next season anytime cornering speed is rewarded.
Next year I'll be a spoiled little bike dork and have two wheelsets. Same tires. One with cushcore, one without. When I'm shuttling, going to the bike park, racing or really looking to get after it going downhill I will no-doubt go with the insert based system. After work trail riding, racing light, going for uber long rides, sans-insert wheelset.
The Huck Norris system is cool, but I'm not nearly as interested in this style of system as it doesn't offer any ride-quality benefit, which is more than half of what I'm after with these systems. Put another way, like Sponsel, I have to run higher-than-I'd-like pressure without a sidewall supported insert. As a result, I have very few flats from pinging my rims, at least outside race environments when I'm not "trying harder than I can".
Just where I'm coming from- my cheap moto rear tire weighs 16lbs and costs $65 retail, does not flat unless you do something really! bad. No special design needed- just more rubber.
I can pony up for $100 MTB tires when racing, but stuff is getting spendy.
That said, gluing tires is pretty damn archaic by my math, and there is a reason why Syndicate never ran tubulars for prominent races. I'd be willing to bet that tubeless will begin to take over the cyclocross scene in the near future as well. You also have to consider these are the types of people who intentionally ride bike with skinny tires and drop bars in the mud, dirt, grass, and sand... bike conservatives, who make rules that hinder the advancement of the sport, i.e. 33c tires and 46mm wide bars, etc. There has got to be something better... and I'm not talking about Tufo's Tubular Clinchers: http://www.tufo.com/en/tubular-clincher/
Pinch flats are not something we regularly see with alloy rims because as mentioned above, alloy rims typically bend. We all know through the history of DH racing that there used to be rims, such as the Mavic DeeMax that were too hard, and cut tires or flatted tubes instead of denting. This issue has resurfaced with the assimilation of carbon rims in MTB. Your rim either breaks or cuts your tire on a significant impact. Both scenarios are less than ideal. To me, this still seems more like a rim issue than a tire issue. Having tested the majority of tire inserts on the market, I will say that some work, some are total gimmicks, and others offer other benefits than just rim protection. Schwalbe's Pro Core allows the rider to more or less fine tune the spring rate of their tire and also acts as an internal bead locker. ENVE's rim strip is pretty damn awesome... going on two years without a single pinch flat on EXO casing tires. (I'm 6'5" and 200lbs, break a lot of shit and flat all the time). Again, I think all of these fixes are more rim-related than tire related.
All of that aside, I am curious to spark some ideas about alternatives to air. All systems currently available are centered around using air, or another type of gas (nitrogen), to inflate the tire. This is the system's achilles. What are your ideas for the coil spring of tires? What about something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIzDu482mME
Eliminating air from the equation also eliminates other issues such as leaky tubeless valves, sealant, and tubeless tape.
P.S. I think re-treading could be a sweet idea... Buy a nice set of tires, and send them in to get some fresh tread when they wear out. Much less disposable, and we all know our industry could jump leaps and bounds in the sustainability department.
To add to this thought, our our current tires have an additional feature that is often not overlooked...they need to hold the forces due to pressure. Hence the max PSI rating for all tires. If you can eliminate the requirement of holding pressure, you could likely save weight on the tire carcass as well.
There are likely a bunch of haters out there that don't see the benefit, but I think a properly designed system would be better all-around (wheels, tires, and inserts). Possibly lighter depending on tire and rim construction. Imagine a day when you can keep riding after a gnarly sidewall tear...simply slap some duct tape on it to keep the dirt out and keep riding. HAHA No more leaky sealant and flat tire headaches. Heck, I'd take a weight penalty to say goodbye to flats.
https://www.boredpanda.com/airless-flat-free-tire-bike-nexo/
And @SlicedAsiago Yeah, that's what I've always done. I hate the feel of a low pressure "Grippy" tire. I ride on rails!
Foam in the sidewalls with kevlar could be an idea to provide the damping and the protection needed.
The alternative is to integrate the insert directly into the rim like the old THE eliminator rim:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/T-H-E-Eliminator-26in-32-hole-rims-Made-by-Tob…
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