Magura's New Race Pro Brakes - Get Your Questions Answered! - Forum Hot Seat

I like magura brakes but dislike the plastic. These looks great. I currently use dominions for their really light lever feel and I don't think I can compromise on that at all now that I've become used to it, but I'm keen to move away from hayes. How do these stack up to the dominions in that respect?

Will there be different lever options in the future, like with the MT5/7?

Thanks for your positive feedback! Generally, we’re a little hesitant to publicly talk about our competitor.
But the Hayes Dominion is a solid brake. You’re absolutely right, and in terms of efficiency and smooth operation, Hayes was indeed our benchmark during the development of the RACE PRO. No question about it. We´ve put it through lab and field test here in Germany.

With our lever bearing and the reduced spring force in the master cylinder piston, we’ve significantly improved the efficiency compared to previous MAGURA brakes. That was a major development goal, and Hayes has definitely been very good in this area over the past few years.
The RACE is a big step forward for us in this regard.

Cheers

Phil (MAGURA R&D) and Dominik (MAGURA Marketing)

🤫
What would be interesting for you? We’d be happy to gather some feedback.

Why not using a stiffer hose and have more pressure/power with a smaller master piston rather than going 12mm to decrease the piston pressure and therefore loose power at the same time? 

We deliberately use 12 and 19 mm pistons to reduce the pressure level within the brake system. Lower system pressure puts less strain on the system, especially the seals, and also improves the bite point because the hose expands less under pressure. This is also one of the reasons why we don’t use braided steel hoses. With the lower pressure levels of our system — roughly 20–60 bar during most braking applications — the additional benefit of a braided hose is comparatively small. With systems such as Brembo, on the other hand, there is a much stronger case for using braided steel hoses, as they operate at significantly higher pressures (roughly 40% higher pressure, rough calculation).

Lower system pressure also makes bleeding easier and means that any residual air in the system is less noticeable at the brake lever.

Our goal is to develop powerful brake systems that deliver top performance under a wide range of conditions and are less sensitive to different factors.

And with this system, we are able to achieve very high braking forces. During development, we put a strong focus on benchmarking and athlete testing, and the first media feedback as well as our bench tests confirm the level of power compared to the competition.

Is the new aluminium lever body compatible with older MT5 and MT7 callipers?

No the parts are not compatible. The MT master have 10 mm master piston and the RACE PRO 12 mm. 
This would result in a lower hydraulic ratio, making the brake really weak.

Here’s also a simple phone shot of the two systems for comparison. (note: the reach dial on the RACE is silver in serial. See magura.com)

I had some MT3, MT5 with mixed calipers and MT8s. With MT3s and MT5 I could achieve a decent brake feel after a proper bleeed. On MT8 that never happened, they always felt spongy, even after bleeding. (I’ve heard from other people that is a characteristic of MT8, so maybe I was the one to blame for not liking the feel). But, talking about bleeding; have you guys changed the bleeding process? On the afore mentioned brakes it was a little bit messy and I always had to bleed, leave the brakes hanging for a few hours (usually I left it overnight) and rebleed it later. After the second bleed the brakes felt great tho.

are these shigura compatible?

Yes, we definitely worked on this. Here are a few points:

1. The oil channel through the caliper is now circumferential, with no dead ends. This makes it much easier to catch every air bubble, and the caliper orientation is no longer as important. You no longer have to remove the caliper from the frame.
2. We now finally have a bleed valve on the caliper. Once you remove the syringe, no air can get back in and no oil can escape.
3. The axial expansion reservoir works better because the port connecting the piston chamber to the reservoir is positioned higher up. This makes it easier for air to naturally find its way into the expansion reservoir.
4. The lower pressure level in the brake system makes it less sensitive to any residual air in the system. In other words, it’s not a big deal if the bleeding isn’t 1000% perfect.

We not only improved such things on the RACE but also on the GUSTAV.

ey, we’ve finally got aluminum brake levers for you guys now 🙄😉

The Shimano brake master would probably move too little oil for our latest calipers and we haven´t tested it. And we won´t.

(We generally strongly advise against such combinations. Neither we nor others can guarantee their safe and reliable function. Such combinations have never undergone any official testing or validation.)

What's the stiffness of the caliper like compared to its peers? 

Thanks for the answer re the lever feel. Glad that was something that you focused on.

Caliper and system stiffness was a really priorized goal of the project.  In the end we measured 20% less unwanted flex at the lever compared to the MT7.To go into a bit more detail: This figure and calculation of the higher system stiffness takes into account both FEM analyses of caliper stiffness and the reduced hydraulic system pressure of the RACE PRO. Because when there is less pressure in the system, stiffness naturally has an even greater impact.

And despite these high stiffness values, the RACE PRO caliper, with its newly designed bridges between the piston sides, is also super lightweight thanks to extensive CNC machining – a major difference compared to the GUSTAV and MT7. In fact, it weighs the same as the MT7 caliper, while offering noticeably more stiffness and place for larger pistons and pads (see above). In the end the total weight of a RACE PRO is just 310 g – putting it in the weight range of some XC brakes, even though it was developed primarily for Enduro and Gravity. And even though it offers benchmark power. And of course, modern DownCountry bikes can benefit from that too. Modern XC tracks are crazy!

In general massive forging tools (see belove a pic of the GUSTAV) with 1,000 tons of press force are the foundation of our unique calipers (MT, LOUISE, RACE, GUSTAV). That’s pretty crazy when you think about it – it’s comparable to the weight of 200 elephants. Forging allows us to create a highly optimized material structure.

Thanks for the super detailed questions  
There are many years of development and countless calculations behind these products. It’s really cool to see you guys digging into the details like this

Cheers

Phil (MAGURA R&D)
Dominik (MAGURA Marketing)

Will these have less brake rub than mt7s? Loved the mt7s other than the brake rub. 

I cannot believe no one has asked the most important question of all!!!  Will we get them in fancy colors??? 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈😂. (Thank you for being here!)

What do you mean with brake rubbing?
Two answers:

Caliper Alignment: 
The caliper alignment is much easier because you now have more pad cleareance compared to MT7. The piston retraction is at least 50 % more.
And we´ve developed a new smart Piston Alignment Tool to make caliper alignment easier. It ensures that all caliper pistons are aligned exactly symmetrically. This creates the best conditions for precise and uncomplicated alignment of the brake caliper. Further advantages include more even wear of the brake pads, a defined pressure point, and reduced braking and riding noise. You can find it here Piston alignment tool - MAGURA Bicycle Brakes & Spare Parts The 90s how-to video is at the bottom of this page.

Vibrations: 
Our new brake pads and compounds help prevent brake vibrations under braking. New to the range are also our shim brake pads (left), featuring a damping insulation layer behind the backing plate – for super-smooth braking and reduced noise. 

Caliper alignment. Good news! Thanks for answering 

The RACE PRO comes in a cool matte silver, making it a great match for nearly every bike.
From our experience, fancy colors only make sense in smaller quantities, which makes them difficult for a “mass-market product” like the RACE PRO — or they would come at a higher price due to additional handling, storage, etc. 

But we definitely get the request, and as riders, we’re into it too! We already have something else in the pipeline for color tuning — but we can’t reveal more just yet. 👀 Which colors would you like to see?

I´ve updated our first answer with another info. Sorry for that late info:

We´ve also developed a new smart Piston Alignment Tool to make caliper alignment easier. It ensures that all caliper pistons are aligned exactly symmetrically. This creates the best conditions for precise and uncomplicated alignment of the brake caliper. Further advantages include more even wear of the brake pads, a defined pressure point, and reduced braking and riding noise. You can find it here Piston alignment tool - MAGURA Bicycle Brakes & Spare Parts The 90s how-to video is at the bottom of this page. Available for 7 dollars at magurausa-shop.com
 
 

Thanks for coming in to answer questions, big fan of Magura brakes and have been running them on all my (and my family’s) mountain bikes for the past 5 or 6 years after too many Shimano bite point/weeping caliper issues.  Looking forward to trying a set of these.  

Can you comment on the range of lever reach adjustment compared to HC3 levers?  I have fairly short index fingers and run my levers in fairly close to the bar.  

Also curious why you didn’t go to a thicker rotor like the Gustavs? Is 2mm the absolute maximum these can accommodate? 

Moving away from carbotecture: 

Joking aside, thanks for doing this AMA, I currently have a set of MT5s that I got along with well, but currently running with XT levers after one of the MT5 master cylinders blew out. 

These brakes look really promising, curious if you guys looked into or why you didn't include any bite point adjustment? the press release says you gave the Race Pro a linear pull, but having the XT levers really changed the character of the MT5, there is more bite initially, but less than a full Shimano setup. I've grown to like that earlier bite but still having more modulation than Shimano's on/off feel. To be able to tune the bite point to personal preference would have been a nice addition. 

Reach Adjust:
Yes we improved the reach adjustment range and you can now get the lever close to the bar. This is an easy made smartphone shot with the closest reach adjustment on a fully bleeded brake. It shows the bite point position.
(note: the reach dial on the RACE is silver in serial. See magura.com)
(Additional safety notice from our manual: Make sure to adjust the reach that when actuated the lever must always contain a minimum distance of 23 mm to the bar)

Why you didn’t go to a thicker rotor like the Gustavs?:
The development goal for the RACE PRO was to create an aggressive and powerful disc brake that also sets new standards in terms of weight for modern trail and gravity bikes. Compared to the MT7, the RACE PRO takes a new approach, featuring a larger caliper surface area and significantly larger brake pads. Both aspects contribute to improved heat resistance, making the RACE PRO noticeably more resistant to heat than the MT7.

With its 2.0 mm rotors, it is not quite as heat-resistant as the GUSTAV PRO, but it saves more than 110 g per brake side, or 220 g in total*. That is a significant saving for trail and enduro bikes – putting it on par with the weight of many XC brakes.

Our testing and athlete feedback have shown that, even in ambitious racing conditions, the RACE PRO offers sufficient heat resistance for most riders and performs at a very high level. First Media feedback like Singletrack, LoamWolf or Enduro-MTB approve this and VitalMTB will test them soon, too.

With the RACE PRO and GUSTAV PRO in our portfolio, athletes can now choose the brake that best suits their individual riding style and bike. Ultimately, this is a personal choice.

*Weight calculation:
GUSTAV PRO: 348 g / MDR-S 2.5 203 mm rotor: 266 g = 614 g total
RACE PRO: 310 g / MDR-S 2.0 203 mm rotor: 191 g = 501 g total


 

We know the HC3 lever is very popular, and we’re already thinking about some tuning parts. Valid comment.
Over the next few months and the next years, we already have quite a few new products planned – both complete products and tuning parts.

We already offer a wide range of rotor and pad options. The RACE PRO comes with SILVER pads, while the YELLOW pads can deliver a measured 10% more braking power and therefore a more aggressive feel. Combined with different rotor sizes, there’s already a lot you can experiment with to find your preferred braking feel. Those are much more than wear parts. never underestimate the pad compound

I like the circular bleed path in the caliper. Seems like it could be a good solution to balance ease of bleeding with the efficacy of a dual bleed port like most(?) Motorsport style brakes have (and dominions). It sounds like you have the flow fairly balanced left and right?

However this solution would obviously reduce the flow by about half, right? How do you handle this, with regards to bubbles being “sticky”? (The advantage of the dual bleed port being that with such a short bleed path the resistance is quite low so you can fairly easily get pretty good flow velocity between two syringes which should help dislodge any bubbles). 

Yes, the circumferential channel makes it much easier to catch every air bubble. From our perspective, the Hayes approach is also more and more uncommon. We and our partners are very happy with our current solution.

But we’re talking a lot about bleeding the caliper here, even though with our brakes, that often isn’t necessary at all. One advantage of MAGURA when bleeding: We explicitly recommend starting with our Fast Bleeding procedure, using just one syringe at the brake master. In practice, we often find that trapped air bubbles are located in the upper part of the brake system. With our super-simple Fast Bleeding procedure, you can pull them out using a vacuum. It takes just a few minutes at most and in the majority of cases this helps perfect and a full bleed is not necessary. Here´s our 60sec how-to video https://youtu.be/2zx1wkUHhWM?si=oO0G_lgvTAJiEOm5
Works on GUSTAV, MT, LOUISE, RACE. 


 

Regarding pad face to rotor face clearance of these new brakes, you said it's 50% more than the super tight MT7s, can you comment on if the clearance is even more than the less tight MT5s? (I hate rotor rub and your brakes are the hardest to get rub free in my experience) 

Yes, the pad clearance is also better than on the MT5. Sorry that we didn’t have a technical figure prepared for this comparison, too.

It’s a valid comment that the MT brakes could sometimes be tricky to adjust, and we were really pushed to work on this. We changed the piston areas around the seals, the caliper machining, and the seals themselves. In the end, this results in greater and, above all, more reliable piston retraction, especially for riders who put a lot of mileage on their brakes. GUSTAV and RACE brakes are much better and also the LOUISE calipers are improved.

Here are some fancy shots of our LOUISE calipers:

What's the little grub screw on the caliper?  A secondary bleed port?  It looks like the main caliper bleed port is up by the banjo.

Also, FWIW, the reason why I use 2.3mm thick rotors on my brakes is because they have a tendency to stay straighter longer, not because of overheating 2.0mm.  With 2.3s, I only have to retrue rotors in heavy use like once a month, whereas on 2.0 rotors it was like once a week.  And the adjustments I'm making to 2.3s are much smaller, just the slightest pressure in 1 or 2 spots with a truing fork rather than actually really trying to bend to rotor.