To my knowledge, not with the newest generation live valve.
Yeah, the current live valve is shock only, since no matter how fast their sensors and wireless protocol is, it can't predict impacts. Flight attendant works well with forks because it's tied to a pedal sensor/power meter and can tell when you stop pedaling and instantly open up, and then at other times there is a delay in opening when pedaling into an impact.
Strange nobody posted it from the other site as its been out for 12 hours+, new player in ebike motors, similar specs as avinox, but with...
Strange nobody posted it from the other site as its been out for 12 hours+, new player in ebike motors, similar specs as avinox, but with freaking 1.5kW charger and integrated ecvt with 500% range... (there is also 1500W version with 500% range)
They're not new to ebikes as a manufacturer, but most of their work has been selling white label motors to other companies, kind of like Brose was focusing on for a while. For example, Gobao makes the motor for the Aventon bikes that Tippie is riding now.
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or...
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or...
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal lock out on is more efficient than off. The shock can play a bigger part into that pedal efficiency especially with how locked out the electronic suspension offers. Orbea Rallon is an example as orbea has said they created the kinematic around electronic suspension for pedaling but benefiting downhill performance when open.
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or...
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal...
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal lock out on is more efficient than off. The shock can play a bigger part into that pedal efficiency especially with how locked out the electronic suspension offers. Orbea Rallon is an example as orbea has said they created the kinematic around electronic suspension for pedaling but benefiting downhill performance when open.
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going to compensate for the sail catching wind. Drag would be the same premise. Suspension could compensate for a bike that is by design way too active when seated or standing. Unless Im misunderstanding your question.
Actually that brings up a good question, someone who has tried flight attendant, does the setup app ask for you bike frame model and size? Do they take into accountant or have a database for suspension designs for better efficiency and such?
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal...
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal lock out on is more efficient than off. The shock can play a bigger part into that pedal efficiency especially with how locked out the electronic suspension offers. Orbea Rallon is an example as orbea has said they created the kinematic around electronic suspension for pedaling but benefiting downhill performance when open.
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going...
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going to compensate for the sail catching wind. Drag would be the same premise. Suspension could compensate for a bike that is by design way too active when seated or standing. Unless Im misunderstanding your question.
Actually that brings up a good question, someone who has tried flight attendant, does the setup app ask for you bike frame model and size? Do they take into accountant or have a database for suspension designs for better efficiency and such?
No, my ideal comparable is a bike that has supposed “drag”(high pivot idler or gearbox) say Norco sight with electronic suspension vs a decent pedaling bike(say transition sentinel) with standard open shock and compare pedaling feel. Does electronic suspension give added efficiency to make it equal or greater to standard decent efficient bike while giving added benefits to downhill capability? Will companies factor electronic suspension into their kinematics? It’s worth testing I’d say.
What electronic shifting will do is increase the efficiency of a given bike by adapting to the behaviour and lock out while pedalling (if we're talking flight attendant). For an already efficient kinematics design (around 100 % antisquat), the change will be miniscule, in my experience more or less related to added ride harshness over an open shock with a minimal change in the amount the bike bobs.
For an inherently inefficient suspension design, one exhibiting a lot of pedal bob, either due to not enough antisquat (suspension compressing under power) or too much antisquat (suspension jacking or rising under power), electronic suspension will increase the efficiency measurably by closing off while pedalling and lowering said bob.
But you will get the same effect by just flipping the lever on any platform equipped shock, the only thing electronics add is the automatic adaptability, (and having to charge batteries).
The other part of the question was improving efficiency of a high pivot design with an idler. This is again where the no from above comes from. Electronic suspension will not change the inherent efficiency of an idler system. The inefficiency comes from the fact the chain, under tension, has to wrap onto and off the idler, where each link rotating is causing friction losses. No amount of electronic lockout will change that.
What idler suspension layouts do improve suspension wise is to have a less forward axle path and thus less pedal kickback WHILE having enough antisquat (because with a higher pivot the rear wheel wants to tuck under the bike without needing the chain to pull it there) with big wheels. 24 and 26 inch wheels generally have the rear axle at zero travel under the BB. 29ers have it above. Even more so for 32" wheels.
What electronic suspension COULD do for our bikes and efficiency is to have simpler, forward moving rear wheel suspensions without pedal kickback (by having a low antisquat), especially on 32" wheels, and not having them bob around like there's no tomorrow.
Bit factoring it into the suspension design? Depends on where you are as a company. Highly integrated, selling only the electronic suspension at all price tiers and making it somewhat affordable? Hell yes. Making a frame for the industry we have now where you can mount 20+ different rear shocks where only 2 of those are electric onto your bike? I'd stick with classic antisquat approach and make it good for everybody.
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or...
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal...
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal lock out on is more efficient than off. The shock can play a bigger part into that pedal efficiency especially with how locked out the electronic suspension offers. Orbea Rallon is an example as orbea has said they created the kinematic around electronic suspension for pedaling but benefiting downhill performance when open.
Okay if that's what you mean then anyone with a full lockout option (e.g. a Scott) can tell you that riding on anything but a smooth surface with the suspension (especially the shock) locked is less efficient because the suspension can no longer absorb bumps so you get hung up on them by varying degrees instead. At least that's been my experience. In electronic suspension, the designer of the control system will (or should) have already taken that into account.
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their enduro inverted fork and saw it had a USB-C port. The guy at the stand said it was for an electronic damper. All forks would come with the USB port so you could upgrade to electronics even if you buy a traditional fork. They said the plan to release was for beginning 2027.
Other than that, I couldn't find anything interesting apart from the whole Gobao/Avinox CVT madness, really curious to try them.
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their...
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their enduro inverted fork and saw it had a USB-C port. The guy at the stand said it was for an electronic damper. All forks would come with the USB port so you could upgrade to electronics even if you buy a traditional fork. They said the plan to release was for beginning 2027.
Other than that, I couldn't find anything interesting apart from the whole Gobao/Avinox CVT madness, really curious to try them.
Did they mention when their brakes will be available!?
That's the other product I'm really interested in.
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going...
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going to compensate for the sail catching wind. Drag would be the same premise. Suspension could compensate for a bike that is by design way too active when seated or standing. Unless Im misunderstanding your question.
Actually that brings up a good question, someone who has tried flight attendant, does the setup app ask for you bike frame model and size? Do they take into accountant or have a database for suspension designs for better efficiency and such?
I cant really remember exactly what the "app" asked when setting it up, but I am going to say no. The suspension isnt that smart, and it still relies on a proprietary tune for the bike you are on for the suspension design/kinematics. Not sure you can buy just a "off the shelf" shock from RS, you might be able to with the bigger models. But afaik all of the xc-variants you can only buy tuned for x or y bike. In some instances (specialized for example) the fork even has a dedicated tune for that bike.
The suspension isnt as smart as they might make it sound. It has a few criterias it follows. If its bumpy or flat. How much power the rider is putting in, in combination with how bumpy or flat it is. It also has a free fall sensor of some kind - So it unlocks if it feels a drop etc. And then you can also control it manually using an axs button if you wish.
It can only react to what it feels, it cant preemptively react to something. So I for example have had my button to open, if I was sprinting on a flat section and heading into something rough, it doesnt know to unlock the suspenion until it "feels" the first bump.
So yeah - It just uses various algoritms and sensors to determine if it should be open, in "pedal" mode, or closed. And while it may sound fairly simple, it does work very well. I dont see me getting another XC bike without it. For bigger bikes I am not sure, have not tried it, and i've kept my bikes on non-electric suspension since I dont really touch the climb switch anyways.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
At one point Fox showed a handlebar controller for the latest Live Valve, but I've never seen anything since.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
Ironically enough I could see Scott doing exactly this for their bikes since they love having modes and levers on the bars. I wouldnt blame them or hate it.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between a firm and an open mode at the handlebar than you could easily do that with no electronics at all.
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between...
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between a firm and an open mode at the handlebar than you could easily do that with no electronics at all.
Cost notwithstanding, the simplicity of wireless controllers is a good use for wireless lockouts. I'm all for it. I've also yet to see a full featured shock that keeps dual compression, rebound adjustments, and other adjustments, with a remote lockout. If and when we see these offered, I'm interested.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires. Next is your seated position (geometry). All other considerations are a distant 3rd.
Others have mentioned it before, but call me when electronic suspension is used for something actually useful, like suspension setup or position sentitive damping.
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires...
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires. Next is your seated position (geometry). All other considerations are a distant 3rd.
Others have mentioned it before, but call me when electronic suspension is used for something actually useful, like suspension setup or position sentitive damping.
Wait… does no one ever standup when climbing their bikes? Maybe thats why I like lockout so much.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between...
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between a firm and an open mode at the handlebar than you could easily do that with no electronics at all.
I see your point, but with an electronic switch at the handlebars, you could be choosing between a lot more options than just on/off or even a three position soft/firm/locked out. You could use the electronic lever to choose between as few as two but as many as infinite modes that are configured by the user on the app. Those modes could include smarter LiveValve or FlightAttendant modes that use sensors, algorithms, and active electronics to open and close at a rate of 100hz to respond to terrain in real time. You can't do that without electronics.
I'm pretty sure the World Cup riders that are using FA (like Luca Shaw or Vali Holl) aren't using it as a "dumb" lockout switch, I'm pretty sure when they "lockout" it's still "smart" and knows to open up under certain conditions based on sensor feedback.
FA bikes have multiple "smart" modes already, which are either more biased towards pedaling efficiency or descending performance, but you have to use the app or a button on the top of the fork to toggle between those settings. I always thought a handlebar-mounted remote lever was a no-brainer for this system.
EDITOR'S NOTE: apparently this is already a Flight Attendant feature that can be configured with AXS pods, which makes a ton of sense.
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires...
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires. Next is your seated position (geometry). All other considerations are a distant 3rd.
Others have mentioned it before, but call me when electronic suspension is used for something actually useful, like suspension setup or position sentitive damping.
Wait… does no one ever standup when climbing their bikes? Maybe thats why I like lockout so much.
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.
I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the time to train your descending muscles. Plus I spent a ton of time on singlespeeds, because it reinforced the Voreis approach, and because it's a fun challenge in a bizarre way, but that puts you and I in a very small camp. Most people on road bikes or mountain bikes will sit 99% of the time and will pretty much only stand to descend or sprint.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to...
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
With flight attendant, you can have it this way. You can switch into manual mode, and then depending on how you set up your buttons on the axs "pod" - You can just use it to cycle between modes, like it was manually controlled, just that it does it wirelessly.
"Ask me how I saved hundreds $$$ by switching two clicks of LSC by hand at the top of the climb."
Caveat is my XC bike with Float X mounted is parallel to the top tube and easily reachable on the fly. Adjustments to LSC help more for front/rear weight balance on flat vs downhill grades, not efficiency. I rarely want the rear in "Xtra Firm" unless its a road.
Love the idea of a "smart switch" that lets you configure a wide range of settings with presets on the bar. Keep the senor driven "Live Valve" part, but make it optional. I really just want a FOX shock with climb setting where the LSC and LSR are both increased like on Cane Creek climb switches. I fee like not enough people have ridden a CC shock to appreciate that feature.
"Ask me how I saved hundreds $$$ by switching two clicks of LSC by hand at the top of the climb. Caveat is my XC bike with Float X mounted is parallel to the top tube and easily reachable on the fly."
Agreed; I'm interested in a remote lockout for low-slung shock frame designs like the Altitude, or equally useful for vertically mounted shocks where the lockout is a bit out of reach and bobbing around. For top tube mounted shocks, not so much.
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you have more to push AGAINST. Most people do power tests on their road bikes because they know it will boost their numbers. The longer the interval, the easier it is to do on the MTB vs the road bike, but those shorter harder efforts are generally considered easier on the road bike. Most people I know do vo2 max intervals on their road bike basically for vanity. But there is an argument it's actually a good idea to do sprint intervals that way, and not squish around.
Yes, 100% antisquat should prevent all pedal bob induced by changes in forward momentum, however it has no effect on changes in rider CG. The reason your bike bobs like crazy when you pedal out of the saddle (if you don't work to keep your mass very still, which is possible, but I think harder) is because your CG is moving up and down. You are literally bouncing on the pedals, and your suspension is responding to that as you would expect. However when you lock the bike out more of that energy gets converted to forward momentum. Like on a road bike, you can still feel the frame flex a bit, and the tires compress and whatnot (which is why roadies got obsessed with like 300psi tire pressures) but it's pretty minimal power loss.
I think TEAMROBOT probably spends too much time with enduro and DH bros 😂 Riding a big squishy bike without lockout... yeah it doesn't pedal for shit out of the saddle so you get trained to not do that. Every XC rider I know spends plenty of time out of the saddle, and you intuitively know you ought to do some of your training like that. It's super rare to find a rider in an XC race who is punching out of corners and over little rises or ledges strictly in the saddle. I know this forum is mostly gravity focused, but keep in mind XC racing and riding is a HUGE part of mtb.
There is a reason why FA has such huge uptake in XC. The number of corners you pedal hard out of is insane, the people I've talked to run bias +2 (as do I) which causes it to favor lockout, and lockout quick. The amount of times it actuates is nuts, you just aren't going to be doing that manually. FA can be run fully manually, for the people who just want the cable free experience, but the reason they add the automation is because once you have the push button remote system, all you have to add is the gyroscope, accelerometer, and algorithms which these days are not a big deal because those things are so ubiquitous now it's not adding that much cost. It's not like auto mode isn't popular...
Yeah, the current live valve is shock only, since no matter how fast their sensors and wireless protocol is, it can't predict impacts. Flight attendant works well with forks because it's tied to a pedal sensor/power meter and can tell when you stop pedaling and instantly open up, and then at other times there is a delay in opening when pedaling into an impact.
They're not new to ebikes as a manufacturer, but most of their work has been selling white label motors to other companies, kind of like Brose was focusing on for a while. For example, Gobao makes the motor for the Aventon bikes that Tippie is riding now.
Random thought that would be cool to see some tests done. Would electronic suspension counteract the high pivot idler drag with better suspension pedaling efficiency? or even counteract the drag from a gearbox? Sounds like the electronic suspension gives the best pedaling efficiency while the one thing people complain about idler and gearbox is the drag. Would be an interesting test to see on some trail/enduro bikes
"Pedal efficiency" is usually shorthand for anti-squat. Drivetrain drag and pedal bob are separate effects, so in short, I doubt it. Assuming I've understood your question.
I see what you’re saying but I’d say real world pedal efficiency is not just suspension kinematics. Proven by Pedaling a bike with the shock pedal lock out on is more efficient than off. The shock can play a bigger part into that pedal efficiency especially with how locked out the electronic suspension offers. Orbea Rallon is an example as orbea has said they created the kinematic around electronic suspension for pedaling but benefiting downhill performance when open.
Your idea is comparable to a bike with 0% drag and 100% mechanical efficiency, but has a massive windsail on it. The suspension is not going to compensate for the sail catching wind. Drag would be the same premise. Suspension could compensate for a bike that is by design way too active when seated or standing.
Unless Im misunderstanding your question.
Actually that brings up a good question, someone who has tried flight attendant, does the setup app ask for you bike frame model and size? Do they take into accountant or have a database for suspension designs for better efficiency and such?
No, my ideal comparable is a bike that has supposed “drag”(high pivot idler or gearbox) say Norco sight with electronic suspension vs a decent pedaling bike(say transition sentinel) with standard open shock and compare pedaling feel. Does electronic suspension give added efficiency to make it equal or greater to standard decent efficient bike while giving added benefits to downhill capability? Will companies factor electronic suspension into their kinematics? It’s worth testing I’d say.
In short to your question, no.
What electronic shifting will do is increase the efficiency of a given bike by adapting to the behaviour and lock out while pedalling (if we're talking flight attendant). For an already efficient kinematics design (around 100 % antisquat), the change will be miniscule, in my experience more or less related to added ride harshness over an open shock with a minimal change in the amount the bike bobs.
For an inherently inefficient suspension design, one exhibiting a lot of pedal bob, either due to not enough antisquat (suspension compressing under power) or too much antisquat (suspension jacking or rising under power), electronic suspension will increase the efficiency measurably by closing off while pedalling and lowering said bob.
But you will get the same effect by just flipping the lever on any platform equipped shock, the only thing electronics add is the automatic adaptability, (and having to charge batteries).
The other part of the question was improving efficiency of a high pivot design with an idler. This is again where the no from above comes from. Electronic suspension will not change the inherent efficiency of an idler system. The inefficiency comes from the fact the chain, under tension, has to wrap onto and off the idler, where each link rotating is causing friction losses. No amount of electronic lockout will change that.
What idler suspension layouts do improve suspension wise is to have a less forward axle path and thus less pedal kickback WHILE having enough antisquat (because with a higher pivot the rear wheel wants to tuck under the bike without needing the chain to pull it there) with big wheels. 24 and 26 inch wheels generally have the rear axle at zero travel under the BB. 29ers have it above. Even more so for 32" wheels.
What electronic suspension COULD do for our bikes and efficiency is to have simpler, forward moving rear wheel suspensions without pedal kickback (by having a low antisquat), especially on 32" wheels, and not having them bob around like there's no tomorrow.
Bit factoring it into the suspension design? Depends on where you are as a company. Highly integrated, selling only the electronic suspension at all price tiers and making it somewhat affordable? Hell yes. Making a frame for the industry we have now where you can mount 20+ different rear shocks where only 2 of those are electric onto your bike? I'd stick with classic antisquat approach and make it good for everybody.
Okay if that's what you mean then anyone with a full lockout option (e.g. a Scott) can tell you that riding on anything but a smooth surface with the suspension (especially the shock) locked is less efficient because the suspension can no longer absorb bumps so you get hung up on them by varying degrees instead. At least that's been my experience. In electronic suspension, the designer of the control system will (or should) have already taken that into account.
I was at Eurobike last week and was really curious about the Stablead products, specially their suspensions. It looks really well made, I was checking their enduro inverted fork and saw it had a USB-C port. The guy at the stand said it was for an electronic damper. All forks would come with the USB port so you could upgrade to electronics even if you buy a traditional fork. They said the plan to release was for beginning 2027.
Other than that, I couldn't find anything interesting apart from the whole Gobao/Avinox CVT madness, really curious to try them.
Did they mention when their brakes will be available!?
That's the other product I'm really interested in.
I cant really remember exactly what the "app" asked when setting it up, but I am going to say no. The suspension isnt that smart, and it still relies on a proprietary tune for the bike you are on for the suspension design/kinematics. Not sure you can buy just a "off the shelf" shock from RS, you might be able to with the bigger models. But afaik all of the xc-variants you can only buy tuned for x or y bike. In some instances (specialized for example) the fork even has a dedicated tune for that bike.
The suspension isnt as smart as they might make it sound. It has a few criterias it follows. If its bumpy or flat. How much power the rider is putting in, in combination with how bumpy or flat it is. It also has a free fall sensor of some kind - So it unlocks if it feels a drop etc. And then you can also control it manually using an axs button if you wish.
It can only react to what it feels, it cant preemptively react to something. So I for example have had my button to open, if I was sprinting on a flat section and heading into something rough, it doesnt know to unlock the suspenion until it "feels" the first bump.
So yeah - It just uses various algoritms and sensors to determine if it should be open, in "pedal" mode, or closed. And while it may sound fairly simple, it does work very well. I dont see me getting another XC bike without it. For bigger bikes I am not sure, have not tried it, and i've kept my bikes on non-electric suspension since I dont really touch the climb switch anyways.
Do any industry insiders have any insight on why us consumers only get fully automatic electronic suspension? I just want a button on my handlebars to switch between pre-defined modes. I feel like this was the obvious first step in electronic suspension and is just much simpler over all from an R&D cost perspective too. It would be easier to market in the modern world of flow and jump lines in trail systems/bike parks that also include natural trails. Open for tech, firm for jumps. Not to mention the general sour sentiment on AI. Even though the suspension is using deterministic algorithms and isn't AI, the general consumer may not want it to "think" for them.
At one point Fox showed a handlebar controller for the latest Live Valve, but I've never seen anything since.
Ironically enough I could see Scott doing exactly this for their bikes since they love having modes and levers on the bars. I wouldnt blame them or hate it.
I mean I think the whole point of electronic suspension is to be better than what that would offer. If you just wanted to switch between a firm and an open mode at the handlebar than you could easily do that with no electronics at all.
Does that seat tube angle look a little on the slack side?
77° effective STA and 70° true STA
Cost notwithstanding, the simplicity of wireless controllers is a good use for wireless lockouts. I'm all for it. I've also yet to see a full featured shock that keeps dual compression, rebound adjustments, and other adjustments, with a remote lockout. If and when we see these offered, I'm interested.
You can control the Neo shock on the new wild lt with Orbea's controller as well.
She's a beaut!
In my opinion, electronic lockouts are worthless. I don't think lockouts at all really matter for climbing efficiency. The #1 thing affecting efficiency is your tires. Next is your seated position (geometry). All other considerations are a distant 3rd.
Others have mentioned it before, but call me when electronic suspension is used for something actually useful, like suspension setup or position sentitive damping.
Wait… does no one ever standup when climbing their bikes? Maybe thats why I like lockout so much.
I see your point, but with an electronic switch at the handlebars, you could be choosing between a lot more options than just on/off or even a three position soft/firm/locked out. You could use the electronic lever to choose between as few as two but as many as infinite modes that are configured by the user on the app. Those modes could include smarter LiveValve or FlightAttendant modes that use sensors, algorithms, and active electronics to open and close at a rate of 100hz to respond to terrain in real time. You can't do that without electronics.
I'm pretty sure the World Cup riders that are using FA (like Luca Shaw or Vali Holl) aren't using it as a "dumb" lockout switch, I'm pretty sure when they "lockout" it's still "smart" and knows to open up under certain conditions based on sensor feedback.
FA bikes have multiple "smart" modes already, which are either more biased towards pedaling efficiency or descending performance, but you have to use the app or a button on the top of the fork to toggle between those settings. I always thought a handlebar-mounted remote lever was a no-brainer for this system.
EDITOR'S NOTE: apparently this is already a Flight Attendant feature that can be configured with AXS pods, which makes a ton of sense.
In my observation no, nobody stands up while climbing.
I came from the old school Kirt Voreis school of climbing, which says to stand up all the time to train your descending muscles. Plus I spent a ton of time on singlespeeds, because it reinforced the Voreis approach, and because it's a fun challenge in a bizarre way, but that puts you and I in a very small camp. Most people on road bikes or mountain bikes will sit 99% of the time and will pretty much only stand to descend or sprint.
With flight attendant, you can have it this way. You can switch into manual mode, and then depending on how you set up your buttons on the axs "pod" - You can just use it to cycle between modes, like it was manually controlled, just that it does it wirelessly.
"Ask me how I saved hundreds $$$ by switching two clicks of LSC by hand at the top of the climb."
Caveat is my XC bike with Float X mounted is parallel to the top tube and easily reachable on the fly. Adjustments to LSC help more for front/rear weight balance on flat vs downhill grades, not efficiency. I rarely want the rear in "Xtra Firm" unless its a road.
Love the idea of a "smart switch" that lets you configure a wide range of settings with presets on the bar. Keep the senor driven "Live Valve" part, but make it optional. I really just want a FOX shock with climb setting where the LSC and LSR are both increased like on Cane Creek climb switches. I fee like not enough people have ridden a CC shock to appreciate that feature.
"Ask me how I saved hundreds $$$ by switching two clicks of LSC by hand at the top of the climb. Caveat is my XC bike with Float X mounted is parallel to the top tube and easily reachable on the fly."
Agreed; I'm interested in a remote lockout for low-slung shock frame designs like the Altitude, or equally useful for vertically mounted shocks where the lockout is a bit out of reach and bobbing around. For top tube mounted shocks, not so much.
The thing that people miss about the lockout/FA efficiency thing is that it's not just about efficiency but power production. When the bike is firmer, you have more to push AGAINST. Most people do power tests on their road bikes because they know it will boost their numbers. The longer the interval, the easier it is to do on the MTB vs the road bike, but those shorter harder efforts are generally considered easier on the road bike. Most people I know do vo2 max intervals on their road bike basically for vanity. But there is an argument it's actually a good idea to do sprint intervals that way, and not squish around.
Yes, 100% antisquat should prevent all pedal bob induced by changes in forward momentum, however it has no effect on changes in rider CG. The reason your bike bobs like crazy when you pedal out of the saddle (if you don't work to keep your mass very still, which is possible, but I think harder) is because your CG is moving up and down. You are literally bouncing on the pedals, and your suspension is responding to that as you would expect. However when you lock the bike out more of that energy gets converted to forward momentum. Like on a road bike, you can still feel the frame flex a bit, and the tires compress and whatnot (which is why roadies got obsessed with like 300psi tire pressures) but it's pretty minimal power loss.
I think TEAMROBOT probably spends too much time with enduro and DH bros 😂 Riding a big squishy bike without lockout... yeah it doesn't pedal for shit out of the saddle so you get trained to not do that. Every XC rider I know spends plenty of time out of the saddle, and you intuitively know you ought to do some of your training like that. It's super rare to find a rider in an XC race who is punching out of corners and over little rises or ledges strictly in the saddle. I know this forum is mostly gravity focused, but keep in mind XC racing and riding is a HUGE part of mtb.
There is a reason why FA has such huge uptake in XC. The number of corners you pedal hard out of is insane, the people I've talked to run bias +2 (as do I) which causes it to favor lockout, and lockout quick. The amount of times it actuates is nuts, you just aren't going to be doing that manually. FA can be run fully manually, for the people who just want the cable free experience, but the reason they add the automation is because once you have the push button remote system, all you have to add is the gyroscope, accelerometer, and algorithms which these days are not a big deal because those things are so ubiquitous now it's not adding that much cost. It's not like auto mode isn't popular...
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