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I remember when hamburgers cost a nickel.
I also remember when gas was under a dollar a gallon...
Sorry, not sure what the US pricing of said Giants was, but I got my (1x, 2015) Regin 1 for 3k € with tax (discounted from a 3600 € MSRP) and Reign 2 (2x10) was selling for ~2k € over here with an MSRP of I think around 2500 €?
Granted, our prices were insanely good at the time, but I doubt it would half the US pricing...
You'll have to link me the model because info is spotty for old bikes. Vital seems to be missing some Reign models so I had to use 99spokes, take exact prices as a grain of salt. Although I am talking about a more general overarching idea, and just using whatever examples are available.
Speaking of '10k bikes'... https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Bikes,3/Giant/Reign-Advanced-27-5-0-Team,15055
This bike was verifiably (in the review) $8250 in 2014. That's a calm n cool $11,186.34 right now. So not only have '10k bikes' existed for quite a while now... The industry has been pushing WELL past the similar threshold of buying power even without the fanciest in flip chips, burrito holders, and ebike motors.
The review also confirms the 2 lower tier 2x models were 3400 and 4750, and the cheapest 1x model (of that particular release) was 5975. And it was alloy lol. Friggin Deore/SLX mix alloy bike with 2x gearing and it would run 4600 buckaroos today. Nowadays 4600 at Giant will get you a pick between a carbon SLX Reign or one of the dual crown fork Reign models, if you wanna save some cash lol
Those are the ones. The lineup was Reign Advanced 0 (the one you linked, XX1/X01, XM1501s, Monarch+, carbon), Reign Advanced 1 (carbon, 2x drivetrain), Reign 1 (alloy, orange, Sram X1, Monarch Plus, XM1501s) and Reign 2 (alloy, 2x drivetrain). The ones I was talking about are the alloy ones, I paid 3k for Reign 1, Reign 2 was just over 2k over here.
Reign 1: https://enduro-mtb.com/en/enduro-long-term-test-2015-review-giant-reign…
I mean it says in that review link that you posted... That it costed 4300 euros lol
"Conclusion
So far, so good – I’m yet to regret my decision for the large Giant Reign! Its precision inspires me to keep riding faster and attempt ever more technical sections. Costing 4,299 €, the bike’s spec is a sure-fire hit with any race-orientated rider. If you’re looking for a slightly more agile and playful bike, the Reign is perhaps not for you."
My brain can't withstand this level of gaslighting after 10 pm... Are you saying you bought a different bike than the one in the review?
Not being a troll and agreeing on inflation, but if you look at e-motos like a Sur Ron Ultra Bee for $5200 (with half of that being the battery pack alone) you still wonder how the bike industry comes up with their prices.
Take a drive around SoCal beach cities right now and it might make more sense lol. They definitely aren't worried about moving units and trying to optimize margins. They are making a killing and nearly killing the bicycle industry here in California. Sure the Surrons are a bit more badass but electric engines seem to be dirt cheap right now, and when you throw em in dirt cheap packaging/chassis you can sell em like hotcakes.
Meanwhile a proper electric dirt bike like a Stark Varg costs 10k at the cheapest on sale, and up to 14k for their top trim. So barrier to entry for an actual e-dirt bike and not a glorified e-fiddy is ~10k. Whereas you can get some eMTBs for ~4k like Marin and Ari (unless you want a shitty Polygon/YT for 3k) and then the top trims that aren't worth buying are like 15k for Sworks or Pivot.
So barrier to entry is like ~1k for a hardtail, ~2k for a full suspension, ~4k for a FS eMTB, ~5k for a dorky eFiddy, 7k for a YZ125 or 8k for a YZ250, ~10k for an actual electric dirt bike or YZ450, and ~17k for a Nissan Versa.
Just the way the industries and scale of economy works. Not a huge point in comparing them imo
(EDITED: apparently Versas start at 17k right now lmao, apologies to Nissan, I was unfamiliar with your game)
As I said in a post before, "Granted, our prices were insanely good at the time, but I doubt it would half the US pricing..." Our prices as in prices in Slovenia, which were lower than elsewhere in Europe.
No gaslighting, it's also not 10 pm here (it's 8 AM right now), the MSRP for Reign 1 in Slovenia was 3600 €, it was 3200 for anyone strolling into the shop and buying it (the default discount approach that is normal around here) and I got it for 3000 € because I knew the owner of the shop. And there were a few Reign 2s in circulation in our group and I can assure you the price was around 2k € without any special questions.
Sorry for derailing and being a stubborn ass, but I really know this. I rode the orange one for 4 and a half seasons, I was contemplating buying one for about a month (while riding a cracked, 7 year old Meta 5.5 at the time) and I'm still a bit butthurt I could only sell it for 1500€ in 2019 (right before covid) equipped with gx eagle and fully serviced while a lot worse equipped (and not serviced) 2016 Reign 1.5s were selling for closer to 2000 € at the same time...
As for evolution, these are my three previous, full suspension AM/trail bikes:
These are:
Commencal Meta 5.5.3, entry model, 2008, ~2000 €
Giant Reign 1, top spec alu model, 2015, 3000 €
Bird Aeris AM9, custom built (high spec), 2019, ~4500 €
I've since moved to a Bird Aeris 9 in 2023, which is very similar to the previous Bird. This directly confirms the point that Jeff amongst others has pointed out, the fast evolution of bikes completely stopped. Other than wanting a smaller frame (L instead of XL) and trying out more travel (160 to 180, which is a scam, 150 mm is perfect), there was no reason for me to replace the Bird for a different Bird and I could easily be still running it with a drivetrain wearables swap in 2023. The three previous bikes brought drastic changes in geometry, wheel size, drivetrain spec and dropper post (presence and travel).
Anyone know if YT has secured some sort of funding / investment for their future ? It's been a while since their announcement, they are taking order for their new ebike which shows availability later this month, but no official word yet the subject...
I haven’t heard anything yet. A few quick thoughts, maybe I’ll do a follow-up since this is one of the biggest question marks in the industry right now.
At its core, YT has always been a cool company but what really set them apart was pricing. The problem is that their financials show this model was a bit of a house of cards, especially now. You can’t run a business long-term with EBITDA margins that barely clear, or even sit below, your WACC (aka, you are making less on your capital than you are spending on it). This is obviously true when free cash flow (or all profitability KPIs) are negative.
YT isn’t Amazon or a high-growth tech company that can burn money to capture market share. They’re a mid-market bike brand stuck between two worlds. They don’t have the scale of Specialized or Giant to drive cost (or capital markets) advantages, but they’re not a boutique builder that can charge niche buyers a premium either.
Consumers buy YT because the price-to-performance ratio is right. But if prices rise 20%, do they still have demand? That’s far from clear.
Any investor who looks at the numbers will see this (or they can hire me to spell it out). The real puzzle is: what levers are left to pull to make this a viable business? I’m not saying there are none, but it’s going to require operational discipline, financial rigor, and likely a fundamental rethink of their model. There are a number of outcomes here, and hell a few of them are "good" but its going to take some optimism on behalf of an investor and a real sea change within the company. Not sure there is room for that.
And finally, heartbreak for Vali and the riders. This is what it feels like to work for a hot startup, crush it, and still get handed a pink slip. I know firsthand how brutal that is.
Consumers aren't good (or maybe just don't waste time over it obsessively like I do) at finding deals...
You can have a pretty fucking tricked out bike for like $4k. Spend 3-3.5k on a nice sale with good suspension. Spend the rest customizing with choice cockpit and tasteful anodized parts. I paid $307 for carbon Elitewheels before tariffs (THANKS TRUMP) and they're incredible quality. I would argue my Cotic is budget boutique as it comes in at almost exactly $4k, and it's fully customized to the gills.
I think the bike industry could definitely do a better job of providing quality bikes on a budget for kids and teenagers. I’d agree with the sentiment though that for adults the main issue is less the price of bikes and significantly more about being able to both afford and have recreational time of any sort. At least here in the us where many feel like they are getting squeezed for every dollar they are worth both as employee and customer.
Which sector specifically? I think the sorta 'kids FS' market will either not improve or improve very slowly cuz that's about as niche as it gets. Most kids aren't like Wes backflipping crab apple so kids have pretty standard or arguably decent values in the rigid and hardtail sector.
You can grab a 20" hardtail, Norco Storm for 480. And the 24 inch version for 500. And the superior Charger models or Speshy/Trek options for ~700. And a Marin Rift Zone 24/26 FS for 1700. And of course a bit cheaper from Polygon/YT or generally chasing sales. I dunno how much more they could squeeze into that ~700-1700 gap because they have some cool higher end hardtails in there if people wanted em, since the sub 1k ones are weak for sure, and not up to task to mini shredders. More so for beginners. But I don't know how much cheaper you'd want to go for a FS MTB. That Xfusion build kinda being the bottom of the barrel. At that point you're almost certainly getting your kid a worse bike just to justify a rear shock. But I'd rather a kid have a bad ass hardtail for ~1250 than a FS that barely compresses and weighs a ton for ~1500.
Keeping in mind proper kids BMX bikes range from 200-420, from the best value BMX brand (https://kinkbmx.com/collections/bikes)
I think kids do well enough on BMX or hardtail until they can properly justify the 26/27 wheel range. Anything outside of that is fairly niche enthusiast stuff. Would be hard to capitalize on that market in any appreciable way.
Part of this is purely down to there being way higher "top tier" product now. To look at drivetrains as one example - these are numbers from last year, but I don't think anything's changed massively:
2017 - SRAM XO1 - £1,005.00 (Corrected for inflation: £1,348.01)
2024 - SRAM XO1 - £1,234.00
2024 - SRAM XO1 Transmission - £1,715.00
So your top tier cable groupset is more or less as it was, but then you've got a fancy wireless version that adds £500 to the price of a bike. It's a similar deal if you look at the Reverb posts and the AXS versions.
I haven't run the numbers, but again, I imagine we're looking at a similar situation for Flight Attendant RockShox models versus the regulars (although arguably there's been more development and model progression within the 'normal' product).
If you have a full bells-and-whistles build now, you've got a much higher ceiling for what it could cost.
Thanks to everyone in the thread for their contributions, it's a really interesting read!
Having run the numbers on this repeatedly, nah we are (accounting for inflation) getting stuff like AXS 'for free'
2017 SC Nomad top tier XX1 build was 8000. (In today's dollars, ~$10,550)
The current highest tier Nomad with X0 AXS (and reserve rims) is $9750.
As I mentioned in a previous post, we are not paying extra for the things we get. They are rolled into the normal cost of the bike, and we are actually paying 'less' for better bikes.
The Sworks Stumpy with live valve shock is 13,500.
The 2015 Sworks Stumpy with 'remote brain and autosag' was 9,500... ~12,860 in today's dollars.
And you'd be forgiven for forgetting 'Brain' existed. Brain drunkenly stumbled around so Live Valve could jog.
The problems are that the components are still going to be similar prices as the adult bikes and that kids tend to out grow bikes before they wear out.. Unless you have another child to pass it down to, it's a bit of a money pit.. However, I did see a couple of kids on Transition Ripcords at the park the other day..
Well that in lies the issue. I see plenty of adults who quit mtbing cause they can’t afford to involve the kids and plenty of kids who have friends who are biking but the entry costs seems entirely infeasible. The latter certainly applies to me growing up.
I get the difficulty of profitability in this area. But unless the industry as a whole tries to resolve it it will always rely on upper middle and upper class enthusiasts and die hards to survive. And that’s not the ticket to thriving in my view.
Not sure if your area is biased towards older, but I'm seeing tons of kids on bikes. Everywhere I go. From walmart BSOs I wish they didn't have and even kids on ebikes now. I think MTBing is doing just fine within its own market. Strictly at the borderlands of action sport and outdoor hobbyist.
BMX bikes are much cheaper and more accessible in my eyes, and every skatepark I go to is practically empty and the local dirt jumps are usually full of kids on DJs/MTBs/surrons, and almost none on BMX.
Def didn't seem to be a lack of of kids racing at nats but maybe someone can chime in if attendance was nearly double in the past. I'd be surprised.
Kids are still well positioned to get bikes. I think the only issue I could see is adults who ONLY want to take them out on THEIR version of mountain biking. I could see that being an issue. Most kids aren't enduro racers. From what I see they generally just want to fcuk around be it BMX hardtail FS surron etc.
I'm glad pump tracks are bridging the general gap between scooter BMX and MTB/DJ. It should give kids a broader view of the '2 wheeled world' and all the options they have. Options that often didn't exist when I was growing up. No pump tracks/bike parks and skateparks never allowed bikes. In that manner, access for kids riding is better than ever.
Historically the residuals on high end kids bikes have been better than equivalent adult bikes. The initial barrier to entry is 100% there but I've lost a lot less selling juniors bikes (after 2 years of riding on average) compared to mine or my wife's...
Even the raddest kid doesn't wear out parts as fast as an adult. They just don't have as much kinetic energy to deal with so things like pads last way longer.
This is in Western Canada though where the number of kids riding more aggressive terrain is probably as high as it gets so probably a bit of a bubble.
So barrier to entry for an actual e-dirt bike and not a glorified e-fiddy is ~10k.
I think you should have a serious look at them when you are thinking that the Ultra Bee is not a proper dirt bike. 12.5 kW, 400+ Nm torque in a smaller and 80 pounds lighter chassis than a Stark. If you think they are not a proper dirt bike, then e.g. a KLX230 is also not. Stark Vark is more like a KX450.
As I stated in a previous post, it's the package around the motor that makes it cheap. I mean these dudes MODDED the Ultra Bee to perform less like crap, and give it a comparative total cost to a Stark... And still said the suspension design felt like shit. On top of being less powerful and all that. I'm sure it's great popping wheelies on the road and doing some smooth jumps (as it was designed for if we're being honest)... But it's not a proper build for actual dirt bike use/racing/etc.
This isn't a post saying "its not fun and not worth buying"... I'm just saying there is a reason it's price seems more similar to eMTBs than dirt bikes. And that is, it is more suitable for terrain you would honestly be riding an MTB one, and less so good for terrain where you really want a proper dirt bike. Particularly stock/unmodded.
In the MX world, I would describe the Surron as 'all hat and no cattle'.
The second half of this hits hard. I was a director of our cycling club for years and would build a climb trail that parents would then complain their 7 yo didn’t like to climb. Of course they don’t. Kids hate climbing, quit dragging them around and let them enjoy mtb their way.
I’ve also pushed hard to have a series of flow and feature based trails that are a tiny pedal from town, all in one area. So kids will be entertained, and won’t have to pedal way out into the forest to hit features.
that being said, there are tons of kids biking and in a core mountain town, people definitely prioritize getting their kids sweet mountain bikes.
I had actually started my son on an ebike... I was better for me not having to wait for him, more fun for him because he wasn't completely smoked all the time. As he got older and spent a couple of seasons on the high school team, he became a stronger rider.. Even after a couple of years away from racing, he still smokes me uphill.. He wants an ebike again, but more for transportation reasons.. The old man can still take him on the downhill though..
Remember, almost no newb likes the climbs.. We all went through that. It's even worse with kids.. Plan your routes appropriately and be ready to stop alot. Make the first experiences fun for your kid and you may end with a riding partner for a long time..
I don't know about kids not wearing out bikes. Some kids are mellow, but there are a surprising number of wee meatheads who seem to smash derailleurs and brake levers like it's their job. Oh, and worn out rear tires from skidding everywhere...
Specialized heard me talking and decided to ruin any chance at logical discussion about bike prices by releasing a 20k ebike, just by virtue of being limited edition and looking, relatively, ugly. Or gaudy. Or whatever it needs to be to get people in that tax bracket to spend that kinda money on a bicycle. Dang.
If they keep feeding the trolls like this they're gonna get sick. Maybe even diabetes. They'll be eatin good for months on this bike lol
At least put a Cascade long shock link on it for that price. LOL
Listening to the Downtime post race podcast, sure sounds like the YT team may be no more. Makes you wonder if YT itself will follow.
was just gonna post too - $20k levo 4 LTD - what's that line? sell expensive stuff to rich people?
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-turbo-levo-4-ltd/p/4260592?color=5442214-4260592
They must think there's a market though. The Garmin Marq line is another example of selling expensive stuff purely because it's expensive....
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