Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
Which valve is it used on? 2-stage, progressive or split-stacks have been used by a lot of brands - Fox usually has a few tunes that use it in the X2 and Float X shocks. Rockshox less so but I think the latest SDLX has started to use them again
Progressive damping can work in a lot of situations - although the end result might actually be closer to linear. Shims don't need to bend very far for oil to flow so the second stage isn't always doing a lot but it depends on the flow rate of that specific piston.
A few notes on it-
if the middle shim ("crossover") is too small in OD, the second stage can bend down close the gap, or the face shim can flex upwards and not seal any more. It needs ot be at minimum the same OD as the clamp shim but often is better if its a few mm bigger. Also the thickness is super crucial - and extra 0.05mm thick makes a huge difference in when it touches the second stage.
As for cavitation - you will know if you have created an issue! But the only time a stack like this might increase cavitation is if you use it on the base valve so there isn't enough back pressure to open the main piston
I just saw there's a high flow piston upgrade available for Super Deluxe C1 shocks to make them into a 'C2'. The shimstack is also needed. RS FAQ states the RC2T reservoir is ALSO needed ( https://support.rockshox.com/hc/en-us/articles/26415028677275-Can-I-upgrade-my-current-RockShox-Super-Deluxe-C1-to-a-C2 ), but if you already have a C1 Ultimate, is the reservoir really needed?
The piston and shims is a ~50 € upgrade and I have a 200h service soming up fairly soon. Does it make any sense to do the upgrade (if piston and stack only)? If yes, is there a guide on what the old tunes mean in the new number/force based tunes?
My understanding is that the high flow piston upgrade reduces high speed packing in the SDLX, and brings it more in line with the tune on the Vivid. In a sense, it turns a SDLX with HBO into a mini-Vivid. Whether you need that or will notice it depends. Are you experiencing harshness and packing on rough chatter and repeated square-edged hits?
I say "repeated hits" because in my experience, the human body is pretty good at anticipating and absorbing single impacts, even harsh ones, like when you're riding BMX on a rigid frame and fork with 20" tires pumped up to 80 psi. If you see the hit coming and have time to absorb it, it's not so bad. It's when the impacts are rapid and repeated that suspension starts needing to do all the work.
I've been wanting to try the high-flow piston upgrade myself, but haven't bothered yet because my 2023 SDLX coil with HBO is pretty darn good as is. Curious but haven't bit the bullet.
Honestly? No effin idea. I've ridden I think five times in the past four months so I'm more or less completely out. And the amount and type of riding has changed a bit so I'm completely lost. What I do know the bike is fairly progressive and I have problems using full travel even without any tokens (it was better on the old 150 mm bike and the old, B gen shock).
Price wise it's not expensive and worth biting the bullet. I already have the Charger 3.1 upgrade kit lined up and I'm also changing the damper body of the shock to a bearing mount with the 200h service so replacing the piston and shims would be no work at all basically.
The question is is the piston and shimstack enough (given the reservoir comments in the FAQ) and which tune to assemble to fit my bike.
There is a conversion chart in one of the manuals that shows which old tune relates to the new ones. I haven't cracked open the new reservoir but I think it is different inside - there is quite a change in characteristic with the new shocks measured on the dyno which I don't think you would get from the piston alone.
*EDIT - the instructions aren't super clear but I think the Ultimate reservoirs are actually the same - there are 2 different upgrades available, converting any select/select+ shock to Ultimate, or converting any C1 (Select, select+. ultimate etc) to a C2 shock because the C2 select shocks are a thing that exist with the new piston
Do you know how the LSC/HSC/Rebound adjusters work on the new RS stuff? I tried to figure out exactly what they are doing to provide the relevant adjustment ranges, but they don't seem to have any documentation on how that piece works or how the oil flows through those adjusters.
Thanks for your response!
It's the compression side of the piston.
Here's my actual mildly ghetto layout - forgive the mess. I started off with a L compression tune (prev. gen) and replaced one clamp shim with the 2 shims with (+) inside. The 12.7 is between the two 18mm. Didn't quite remember the specifics.
It's not my first shimjob, though I'm no expert in fluid dynamics so I'm asking in case I'm doing something generally not recommended for reasons beyond my understanding, but sounds like I may be overthinking it! (8 months of recovery will do it I guess)
I was mostly happy with the shock's performance, but on the largest hits with fast shaft movements - going from near/full extension to bottom out was a little too easy even with MegNeg and all possible tokens. So technically I replaced one 18mm with a 20mm, added the spacer and then used the 18mm to engage at the highest forces.
Only rode it fairly easy between an injury recovery-ish and a surgery, but it feels like the small bump hasn't suffered and I'm sure it won't be easier to bottom out once I get back on the bike. Though I just replaced the Zeb with a Boxxer so who knows what can this "trail" bike do
)
"I say "repeated hits" because in my experience, the human body is pretty good at anticipating and absorbing single impacts, even harsh ones, like when you're riding BMX on a rigid frame and fork with 20" tires pumped up to 80 psi. If you see the hit coming and have time to absorb it, it's not so bad. It's when the impacts are rapid and repeated that suspension starts needing to do all the work."
Dog. Think that paragraph is an excellent explanation of why so many people set their suspension up so $h!t. Including some pros honestly..
There must be substantial changes to the bridge then? If it was just the shimstack in the bridge that could also be modified if you wanted...
Curious that shims, piston and reservoir are all separate upgrades, not a pack...
EDIT: ah, only now I see the new piggyback is single piece, not a screw on reservoir like the older piggybacks... Maybe that had something to do with it? Or is the damping assembly under the adjuster button?
How is it worth it if you're "lost"?
You're looking at a very specific upgrade kit. Being newer doesn't mean it's better. It's likely better for someone, but is it worth spending a dollar on for you, if it doesn't claim to "find" you?
It may be an unpopular opinion but MTB suspension is mostly BS these days. Yes, there is innovation, I'm not trying to deny new features are great, quality is generally getting better(there's a brand insistent on being an exception but let's not go there), but there hasn't been any revolution in pistons and shims. Charger is a great example where each version is a bit different, but in some use cases there's no advantage to the 3.1 over the original charger. I'd argue 90% of use cases if you're not afraid to shim.
Shocks are the same. HBO getting popular is a nice addition, but every time I'm supposed to be blown away by something new and so very sophisticated, it turns out what matters is whether it's addressing some issue I have with suspension.
EDIT: soz it may read a bit cocky. Just having a day..week.. or something
Any general observation of how the new vivid characteristics compare to the og SD coil (the one before HBO)? I get along well with mine and don’t have bottoming issues, but curious about the new vivid
I had another look and I think I was wrong that first time - you can just use the new piston to make a C2 shock
The instructions aren't super clear but I think the Ultimate reservoirs are actually the same - there are 2 different upgrades available, converting any select/select+ shock to Ultimate, or converting any C1 (Select, select+. ultimate etc) to a C2 shock because the C2 select shocks are a thing that exist with the new piston
Also reminds me why I bought a C2 piston for stock recently!
Great news. Any ideas where that matrix of what the old vs. The new tune is like? Can't find it in the piston tuning guide...
Dumb question, but how would a customer be able to tell if they have a B1, B2, C1, or C2 Super Deluxe?
Isn't that covered by the trailhead app and the unique ID? Haven't really ever checked, I just knew by being enough of a geek, but yeah, it's a pain. I had problems when someone asked for a service of a Lyrik that was still the B generation, but already had the DebonAir upgrade. The result was that most service kits weren't suitable as they had the old sealehead design. And obviously it was Charger 1, not Charger 2 or something like that.
Also, most people take their bike to a shop?
Punch the serial number in to the trailhead app and it will be part of the product code (something like SDLX-ULT-C2), also the C1 shocks had tunes like L, L1, LC,H whereas C2 became C30, C34, C43 etc
@Primoz the service manual has the tune guide - https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/service-manuals/rockshox/rear-suspension/2023-super-deluxe-service-manual.pdf
Super Deluxe and Vivid all have quite similar characteristics over the years, when just looking at dyno plots - they don't have wildly different tunes year to year like Fox does. The latest ones are a little lighter in low speed compression so will feel more responsive, which is a pretty common theme from most brands in the last couple of years. The C2 tunes allow you to add more LSC without being as harsh on small bumps as the C1 or earlier shocks did. eg the "hotdog" generation shocks have very low high speed damping and increasing LSC made them quite stiff at low speeds without helping much in "mid stroke" or high speed support
I'm pretty sure the "touchdown" piston also fixes some strange behaviour I had seen with the extremely progressive PR tune on the C1 SDLX coil, which makes that more useable
This is great info, thank you!
Thank you kind sir!
Yo SuspensionLabNZ, you got PayPal or similar? You should put that up here so we can buy ya a beer or a Mtn Dew! Someway to say thank you without just saying thank you!!👊
One quick note for everyone:
The Sram/Rockshox Trailhead app (and their website's serial-number-based help) seems to be down. I mentioned it in the Tech Rumors thread but here's part of the email they sent me when I asked 'em about it:
"SRAM is experiencing an IT issue that has impacted operational capabilities in certain departments. We are working to resolve the issue as soon as possible and will provide regular updates as information allows.
In the meantime, please be aware that none of these resources will recognize serial numbers. Suspension products saved in your RockShox Trailhead Garage may also not be visible.
Please understand that SRAM Support Teams are also affected by this issue. As a result, they may be unable to assist with service questions, small parts replacement recommendations, suspension setup and tuning guidance, or general product identification until the IT issue is resolved."
Just wanted to mention that in case everyone goes to the Trailhead app/site and can't figure out why they can't find their fork/shock.
Does anyone know if the RS Monarch air valve adapter (Part No. 00.4315.027.010) can be used on Fox shocks. The genuine Fox one (part No. 398-00-240) is more than 5 times the price.
Yeah its the same - all those valves are a standard design for the most part (used in HVAC systems too), and the same as a regular schraeder valve without the external thread. The only common one thats a little different is the RS sidluxe - those are recessed a tiny bit further so the standard tool won't reach. I think the Fox tool is steel though which is nice - the RS ones wear out if you are using them all the time
@Whattheheel thanks yeah I would like to have a platform for sharing some of the info that isn't common knowledge, but should be! Just need to find a way to make it break even at leastso it can be sustainable.
Thanks yeah I had noticed some weird behaviour with that app recently - it's a useful tool but the function was always a bit strange so hopefully they get it working again!
Brilliant, thanks for the info. 👍
Blog and patreon?
as already posted in the rumours thread, i thought this might also fit good in this thread:
friends of mine are developing an vacuum bleeder for shocks and fork dampers to fully service your suspension at home, without the need of messy handbleeding. I got the chance to try one of the prototypes myself and it works pretty straight forward. I thought i spread the word in here because i think this is a pretty cool innovation in the mtb tech and it is targeted at home mechanics/ race day applications etc.
they are currently sourcing local production here in austria and want to be on sale soon
https://www.futureliteindustries.com/
That is a very clean set up!
I've always wanted to try out the Anso bleeder. Seems like a good way to go for a home guy,
https://anso-suspension.com/product/home-mechanic-vacuum-bleed-machine/…
Hi all,
I am thinking about servicing super deluxe ultimate coil 2023 at home, and changing the base compression tune(from L to M or H)
What are some "must have" tools, that I have to acquire?
I have access to bench with vice. I will get some aluminum inserts, and 3D printed shaft vice blocks.
Air valve tool and schrader core remover will source from aliexpress.
And IFP setting tool from handlebars and grip.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/service-manuals/rockshox/rear-suspension/2023-super-deluxe-coil-service-manual.pdf
Lubricants and Oils
• Maxima PLUSH 7wt
---Any alternative, that can be bougth in smaler quantities?
• RockShox Dynamic Seal Grease
---Can I substitute for slick honey?
• Loctite 2760 Threadlocker (Red)
---Can i substitute for 271?
RockShox Tools
• RockShox IFP Removal Tool - Super Deluxe Coil
---If I understand, anything with M5 thread would work? like a long M5 bolt?
• RockShox Super Deluxe Coil Compression Tools
---mandatory? probably is. I saw, that there is also vivid tool kit, that include parts from "Coil Compression Tools" but adds few extras. For SD coil compression tool is enough?
What do I need "Guide Pin/Punch: 1.5 mm" for? Can I substitute it with a pick?
How much time should I reserve for this, if I am doing it for the first time?
tnx
Slick honey is Sram butter. Dynamic seal grease is a different thing.
Check if it comes with the service kit. For air shocks it does. I have 80+ percent of the big tub still left after 6 years of servicing my and other people's shocks and have a big bag of service kit grease tubes also left (15 plus tubes).
Oils can be bought in 100ish ml containers, doesn't make sense to go less than that.
Threadlocker as long as it's the red one, I guess it should be fine.
For the IFP, not sure if it's M5 or maybe M4, but yes. I pulled mine from a MY23 Air shock with a bleed fitting when it surprised me.
As for tools, coil specific tools aside (don't have experience, can't comment), RS is really good with tool carry over. Most of the special tools I've bought over the years are still in use with newer shocks. The brass vice blocks (10 mm and half inch) and the ifp chamber pressure adapter have been in use for I think over 10 to 15 years unchanged.
Post a reply to: Shock servicing at home