The Bikeconomics (Mega)Thread

All-MTN-MTB
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4/20/2024 2:59pm
Pretty bad for the people at Kona.. That post seems to go hand in hand with what we just saw ar Otter.. In regards to a...

Pretty bad for the people at Kona.. That post seems to go hand in hand with what we just saw ar Otter..

In regards to a couple of other brands that were mentioned..

Niner.. Maybe in the same boat as Kona? Bought by a big company and we really haven't seen much since.. Do they retain the core Ninerds? 

Alchemy.. Cool bikes but they never seemed to really take off.. Maybe the drop bar business is keeping them alive? 

Revel.. Probably the one that has been the best of those 3 that were mentioned. They have released new bikes, still marketing them.. They seem like they haven't gone crazy expecting large sales numbers..

Just my opinion...

I doubt there’s many core people left at Niner. I don’t know many mountain bikers that would move from Colorado to Ohio. https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2023/12/12/united-wheels-…

4
4/20/2024 3:06pm

I doubt there’s many core people left at Niner. I don’t know many mountain bikers that would move from Colorado to Ohio. https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2023/12/12/united-wheels-…

I was referring to the customers.. Is there the "It's not really a Niner anymore " mentality with them?

As for staff, I wouldn't leave Colorado for Ohio either..

1
4/20/2024 3:07pm
LePigPen wrote:
I like how people downvoted this as... Premature info (now proven legit) or as a means of frowning on the death of Kona. I'm learning to...

I like how people downvoted this as... Premature info (now proven legit) or as a means of frowning on the death of Kona. I'm learning to not pay attention to the voting in these forums. It's seemingly less meaningful than that of youtube/reddit lol

With the death of Kona basically comes the death of 425mm chainstay dual 275 bikes. Sad Final nail in the coffin. At least Marin makes a great dual 275 bike. (430 aint bad either)

TEAMROBOT wrote:
I don't know if this is bad voting etiquette, but I use the downvote button for bad news, aka the death of Kona. Sorry if that's...

I don't know if this is bad voting etiquette, but I use the downvote button for bad news, aka the death of Kona. Sorry if that's throwing off your exit polling results and election projections

LePigPen wrote:
(scribbles on a note pad) Just starting my Vital "State of the Sport" survey. So far what we've learned is the industry needs more 64 degree...

(scribbles on a note pad)

Just starting my Vital "State of the Sport" survey.

So far what we've learned is the industry needs more 64 degree head tube 76 degree seat tube 435mm chainstay 29er/MX all mountain bikes. Bonus points if they have nearly identical kinematics. Cool colors are the best marketing tool.

So, what is the next big thing?

LePigPen
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4/20/2024 3:30pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
I don't know if this is bad voting etiquette, but I use the downvote button for bad news, aka the death of Kona. Sorry if that's...

I don't know if this is bad voting etiquette, but I use the downvote button for bad news, aka the death of Kona. Sorry if that's throwing off your exit polling results and election projections

LePigPen wrote:
(scribbles on a note pad) Just starting my Vital "State of the Sport" survey. So far what we've learned is the industry needs more 64 degree...

(scribbles on a note pad)

Just starting my Vital "State of the Sport" survey.

So far what we've learned is the industry needs more 64 degree head tube 76 degree seat tube 435mm chainstay 29er/MX all mountain bikes. Bonus points if they have nearly identical kinematics. Cool colors are the best marketing tool.

So, what is the next big thing?

Reverse mullet. Only climbing. No more downhills. Uphill both ways just like how my grand pappy went to school every day. We will shuttle you down the hill so you don't lose energy for your next climb. Also integrated drop bar/stem combo with cable routing through the headset. For speed.

3
4/20/2024 5:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/20/2024 5:22pm
LePigPen wrote:
Reverse mullet. Only climbing. No more downhills. Uphill both ways just like how my grand pappy went to school every day. We will shuttle you down...

Reverse mullet. Only climbing. No more downhills. Uphill both ways just like how my grand pappy went to school every day. We will shuttle you down the hill so you don't lose energy for your next climb. Also integrated drop bar/stem combo with cable routing through the headset. For speed.

Jump on that quickly.. There might be dozens of bike sales in your future..

Also, can I get an Ebike version? 

2
LePigPen
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4/20/2024 5:35pm
LePigPen wrote:
Reverse mullet. Only climbing. No more downhills. Uphill both ways just like how my grand pappy went to school every day. We will shuttle you down...

Reverse mullet. Only climbing. No more downhills. Uphill both ways just like how my grand pappy went to school every day. We will shuttle you down the hill so you don't lose energy for your next climb. Also integrated drop bar/stem combo with cable routing through the headset. For speed.

Jump on that quickly.. There might be dozens of bike sales in your future..

Also, can I get an Ebike version? 

Oh every single bike will be an ebike but with the latest and greatest underpowered Fazua battery (to keep weight down) so that you go about as fast as your normal biking friends (don't wanna leave friends behind), and so the battery dies after about an hour. So that you are forced to buy the range extender and give up a water bottle slot.

 

But don't worry. We will be integrating a hydration system within the carbon frame with a hose that leads directly to your face. Also it will come stock with Mountain Dew Baja Blast (further Baja Blast refills are up to the consumer).

5
4/20/2024 6:02pm
LePigPen wrote:
Oh every single bike will be an ebike but with the latest and greatest underpowered Fazua battery (to keep weight down) so that you go about...

Oh every single bike will be an ebike but with the latest and greatest underpowered Fazua battery (to keep weight down) so that you go about as fast as your normal biking friends (don't wanna leave friends behind), and so the battery dies after about an hour. So that you are forced to buy the range extender and give up a water bottle slot.

 

But don't worry. We will be integrating a hydration system within the carbon frame with a hose that leads directly to your face. Also it will come stock with Mountain Dew Baja Blast (further Baja Blast refills are up to the consumer).

Gotta grab that product placement money... The influencers will be all over that feature..

Today's video is sponsored by Liquid Death...

LePigPen
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4/20/2024 6:12pm
LePigPen wrote:
Oh every single bike will be an ebike but with the latest and greatest underpowered Fazua battery (to keep weight down) so that you go about...

Oh every single bike will be an ebike but with the latest and greatest underpowered Fazua battery (to keep weight down) so that you go about as fast as your normal biking friends (don't wanna leave friends behind), and so the battery dies after about an hour. So that you are forced to buy the range extender and give up a water bottle slot.

 

But don't worry. We will be integrating a hydration system within the carbon frame with a hose that leads directly to your face. Also it will come stock with Mountain Dew Baja Blast (further Baja Blast refills are up to the consumer).

Gotta grab that product placement money... The influencers will be all over that feature.. Today's video is sponsored by Liquid Death...

Gotta grab that product placement money... The influencers will be all over that feature..

Today's video is sponsored by Liquid Death...

That face when a square section is randomly welded inside my front triangle and you ask if its for a proprietary frame storage bag and I say "No, but if you're in NEED of a stylish website today... YOU TOO can promote your business online with SQUARE SPACE" (and then proceed to drop in to the easiest line at San Clemente and go over the bars on the second gap jump)

3
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TEAMROBOT
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4/22/2024 10:37am Edited Date/Time 4/22/2024 10:42am
Primoz wrote:

https://road.cc/content/news/kona-bicycles-winding-down-and-sale-307945

It was obviously not good. But did we know they want to offload the company? 

It's hard to imagine a future for Kona when they just laid everyone off. You can buy the name and IP but getting the whole Kona business machine started again with all new people sounds like a big ask given current bike industry market trends.

Primoz
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4/22/2024 10:54am

Agreed. When it comes to buying IP and product lines Nukeproof is a much better proposition than Kona... 

1
4/22/2024 2:01pm

Kona would be a total revamp where Nukeproof would be set up shop, order product and go...

2
jonkranked
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4/22/2024 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 4/22/2024 4:02pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
It's hard to imagine a future for Kona when they just laid everyone off. You can buy the name and IP but getting the whole Kona...

It's hard to imagine a future for Kona when they just laid everyone off. You can buy the name and IP but getting the whole Kona business machine started again with all new people sounds like a big ask given current bike industry market trends.

after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction).  definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately. 

1
gibbon
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4/23/2024 6:31am

You've gotta love Linkedin....
"I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the unemployed journey and all the opportunities it will afford me to be poor. Feeling so blessed  and thrilled to spend all day indoors eating day old takwaway and chips"

8
rludes025
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4/23/2024 6:36am Edited Date/Time 4/23/2024 6:37am
rludes025 wrote:
gibbon wrote:
You've gotta love Linkedin.... "I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the...

You've gotta love Linkedin....
"I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the unemployed journey and all the opportunities it will afford me to be poor. Feeling so blessed  and thrilled to spend all day indoors eating day old takwaway and chips"

It's a strange way of saying my new cooperate overlords showed me the door. 

 

Total speculation…

1
4/23/2024 8:58am
rludes025 wrote:

It's a strange way of saying my new cooperate overlords showed me the door. 

 

Total speculation…

I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..

5
rludes025
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4/23/2024 9:45am
rludes025 wrote:

It's a strange way of saying my new cooperate overlords showed me the door. 

 

Total speculation…

I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...

I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..

That's fair and true. Wondering minds are prevalent. 

eicca
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4/23/2024 9:53am
rludes025 wrote:
gibbon wrote:
You've gotta love Linkedin.... "I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the...

You've gotta love Linkedin....
"I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the unemployed journey and all the opportunities it will afford me to be poor. Feeling so blessed  and thrilled to spend all day indoors eating day old takwaway and chips"

rludes025 wrote:

It's a strange way of saying my new cooperate overlords showed me the door. 

 

Total speculation…

Does Revel even have corporate? They seem small enough that this does actually sound like Miller's own decision.

Although, I have been debating on getting a Revel vs a Santa Cruz lately, and the stability/security of the company is a huge consideration for me. This isn't exactly helping my Revel choice.

2
rludes025
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4/23/2024 10:01am Edited Date/Time 4/23/2024 10:02am
gibbon wrote:
You've gotta love Linkedin.... "I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the...

You've gotta love Linkedin....
"I am beyond proud to be forced out of a company I founded and I am super excited to embark on the unemployed journey and all the opportunities it will afford me to be poor. Feeling so blessed  and thrilled to spend all day indoors eating day old takwaway and chips"

rludes025 wrote:

It's a strange way of saying my new cooperate overlords showed me the door. 

 

Total speculation…

eicca wrote:
Does Revel even have corporate? They seem small enough that this does actually sound like Miller's own decision. Although, I have been debating on getting a...

Does Revel even have corporate? They seem small enough that this does actually sound like Miller's own decision.

Although, I have been debating on getting a Revel vs a Santa Cruz lately, and the stability/security of the company is a huge consideration for me. This isn't exactly helping my Revel choice.

I think there is stability; just the money that came in 2-3 years ago is likely now making more of the decisions. Could have been a planned transition... could be something else. 

The timing with the other industry news certainly makes my brain go to the worst, admittedly without any first hand knowledge of this situation. 

1
4/23/2024 10:29am
jonkranked wrote:
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...

after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction).  definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately. 

"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?

1
4/23/2024 10:42am
jonkranked wrote:
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...

after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction).  definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately. 

"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?

The only thing that would make sense would be if an existing brand bought the equipment to on-shore manufacturing..

2
4/23/2024 10:59am
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...

I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..

That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta. 

4
1
4/23/2024 11:04am
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...

I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..

That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly...

That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta. 

I thought Revel was started by one of the Canfield brothers

All-MTN-MTB
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4/23/2024 11:18am
jonkranked wrote:
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...

after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction).  definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately. 

"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?

The only thing that would make sense would be if an existing brand bought the equipment to on-shore manufacturing..

I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term. 

4
jonkranked
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4/23/2024 11:36am
jonkranked wrote:
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...

after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction).  definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately. 

"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?

no, just that in slicing things up and selling off the brand name only any entity that would take up the GG name without the IP (designs, etc) would be GG in name only.  IIRC this was after they had attempted to sell everything turnkey.

2
4/23/2024 12:10pm
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...

I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term. 

You're probably right, but I hope not. Since there isn't much room in the mountain bike world for innovation to come from geometry, I assume the next big technological leap will be in manufacturing. Its silly that to make a carbon frame you have to buy $1 million + in molds, and locks you into a 3-5 year product cycle to make back the investment. This makes it so hard to respond to geometry/sizing revolutions (ironically thats over now), unexpected peaks and valleys in sales numbers, etc. Remember when Specialized got caught flat footed with the 650b thing and had to release a 650b Enduro with a 29er front triangle and a spacer under the head tube?

I love what Atherton & others like them are doing (RIP Pole), where the same manufacturing tech can be used for rapid prototyping and production runs, but its unlikely that machining the entire frame or 3D printing lugs will be done en masse any time soon. Maybe something inbetween like what Neko is playing around with.

2
1
4/23/2024 12:11pm

"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?

The only thing that would make sense would be if an existing brand bought the equipment to on-shore manufacturing..

I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...

I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term. 

I disagree. 

I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever. 

Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no. 

But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that. 

2
Simcik
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4/23/2024 12:19pm
I disagree.  I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.  Premium bikes with lower...

I disagree. 

I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever. 

Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no. 

But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that. 

With global demands to reduce carbon emissions and become greener, onshoring is likely. Even if the frames must come from Asia for a variety of reasons, there are a growing number of brands sourcing items out of the USA and assembling bikes here. Europe already has quite a few bike assembly factories doing this. As such, it is likely more brands will build bikes for the American market in the American market rather than continue assembling in Asia and importing. 

1
2
4/23/2024 2:44pm
I disagree.  I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.  Premium bikes with lower...

I disagree. 

I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever. 

Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no. 

But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that. 

"Help thou my unbelief" 

1

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