MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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kroe
Posts
13
Joined
12/20/2023
Location
Wallingford, CT, USA
12/22/2023 7:41am
kroe wrote:
Eagle derailleur was feeling left out - so I made a thing - replaces the washer on a standard UDH dropout with a "Brace" that links...

Eagle derailleur was feeling left out - so I made a thing - replaces the washer on a standard UDH dropout with a "Brace" that links the rear derailleur for strength and stiffness.

Brace Front 0Brace Back

rustle wrote:
You’ve updated/re-invented the North Shore Billet hanger banger! I used to run them on my street trails bike in the early 2000’s. I had a Chris...

IMG 1560IMG 1561You’ve updated/re-invented the North Shore Billet hanger banger! I used to run them on my street trails bike in the early 2000’s. I had a Chris King 135mm non disc hub upgraded to fun bolts with the outer washer removed to hold the hanger banger on. It was a near perfect fit. Neat! Specialized later copied the design. 

Neat, hadn't seen that before.  

UDH makes the concept more practical, since it standardizes position of the derailleur relative to the axle.  Forward we regress!

3
12/22/2023 9:27am
kroe wrote:
Eagle derailleur was feeling left out - so I made a thing - replaces the washer on a standard UDH dropout with a "Brace" that links...

Eagle derailleur was feeling left out - so I made a thing - replaces the washer on a standard UDH dropout with a "Brace" that links the rear derailleur for strength and stiffness.

Brace Front 0Brace Back

This looks pretty good, but I'm left wondering how many people can stand on it?

13
1
Kango
Posts
42
Joined
1/4/2023
Location
Calgary, AB, CA
12/22/2023 2:14pm

No. 

Replaceable derailleur hangers are designed to break to save your frame not your derailleur. 

Onawalk wrote:
Are we talking about the same thing here? the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial. the new SRAM...

Are we talking about the same thing here?

the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial.

the new SRAM transmission mounting is designed in much the same way, with replaceable/rebuildable parts.

What has been designed by @kroe can be thought to be a stiffner of sorts, that could also "shrug" off impacts, similar to what both specialized and Syntace has done in the past, but obviously not for UDH equpiied bikes, which would make his design novel in that it could be used on any bike with that uses a UDH.

Does that clear it up, or am i missing something?

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame. Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur...

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame.

Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur. It is not, it protects the frame.

One of the potential downsides to transmission is that without a sacrificial derailleur hanger, there is more potential to damage the frame (or hub) in a crash.

Direct from SRAM its designed to protect the derailleur and the frame.

dolface
Posts
1713
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
USA
12/22/2023 2:47pm
Onawalk wrote:
Are we talking about the same thing here? the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial. the new SRAM...

Are we talking about the same thing here?

the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial.

the new SRAM transmission mounting is designed in much the same way, with replaceable/rebuildable parts.

What has been designed by @kroe can be thought to be a stiffner of sorts, that could also "shrug" off impacts, similar to what both specialized and Syntace has done in the past, but obviously not for UDH equpiied bikes, which would make his design novel in that it could be used on any bike with that uses a UDH.

Does that clear it up, or am i missing something?

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame. Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur...

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame.

Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur. It is not, it protects the frame.

One of the potential downsides to transmission is that without a sacrificial derailleur hanger, there is more potential to damage the frame (or hub) in a crash.

Kango wrote:

Direct from SRAM its designed to protect the derailleur and the frame.

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

4
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
420
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR, USA
12/22/2023 3:15pm
dolface wrote:
Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance...

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

Careful man. Unless you’re trying to trigger all the gearbox zealots on purpose…

9
12/22/2023 8:59pm Edited Date/Time 12/22/2023 8:59pm
dolface wrote:
Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance...

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

20
1
12/23/2023 2:06am
dolface wrote:
Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance...

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the...

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

My 2 mechanic mates vouch for this, also a few of the frames aren't aligned perfectly out of the molds due to paint the thread tapping and hub facing not being perfect, so the alignment can be slightly off, and theres no quick fix, as you can just bend the hanger to align things anymore.

 

9
dolface
Posts
1713
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
USA
12/23/2023 6:51am
A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the...

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

I'm not surprised, it's definitely *very* sensitive to alignment (and thus proper torque) issues.

I'd bet SRAM is quietly working to improve that since getting bike manufacturers to improve tolerances seems unlikely... 

/derail

11
notthatbryan
Posts
435
Joined
3/8/2023
Location
Acworth, GA, USA
12/23/2023 11:48am
Onawalk wrote:
Are we talking about the same thing here? the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial. the new SRAM...

Are we talking about the same thing here?

the UDH, is in fact a Universal Derailleur hanger, that is designed to be sacrificial.

the new SRAM transmission mounting is designed in much the same way, with replaceable/rebuildable parts.

What has been designed by @kroe can be thought to be a stiffner of sorts, that could also "shrug" off impacts, similar to what both specialized and Syntace has done in the past, but obviously not for UDH equpiied bikes, which would make his design novel in that it could be used on any bike with that uses a UDH.

Does that clear it up, or am i missing something?

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame. Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur...

The UDH is sacrificial, but it doesn't protect the derailleur it protects the frame.

Sometime people think the replaceable derailleur hanger is to protect the derailleur. It is not, it protects the frame.

One of the potential downsides to transmission is that without a sacrificial derailleur hanger, there is more potential to damage the frame (or hub) in a crash.

Kango wrote:

Direct from SRAM its designed to protect the derailleur and the frame.

Just to clarify.

The UDH allows rotation to the rear which helps protect the derailleur, from some impacts. So yes in certain circumstances the UDH can protect the derailleur. Those impact do not damage the UDH either. 

In impacts large enough to damage the UDH, the bending of the UDH primarily protects the frame. In a side impact (likely the most common) the UDH does nothing to protect the derailleur only the frame. 

1
az2au
Posts
66
Joined
10/19/2023
Location
Scottsdale, AZ, USA
Fantasy
12/23/2023 3:43pm
dolface wrote:
Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance...

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the...

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

I saw the chewing problem on a buddy's Stumpjumper Evo but I can tell you with certainty that it was his fault and not SRAMs.  He was using an axle that "fit" but wasn't the correct one and was slightly too big and didn't torque the derailleur properly because it "stuck" when he did.  So, yeah, he's an idiot who should't be touch his bike for maintenance, but that's the way it starts chewing into the frame.

Other than the slight slipping problem I have on one bike that appears to be related to a slightly off spec cassette, I have had zero problems on the 10 bikes I have installed it on and that includes two bikes that SRAM didn't list at the time of install where I just used the chain stay length to calculate the values.  It far exceeds my expectations on working with a wide range of variables.  If you could simply microshift at the gear level the majority of issues that most have would go away.

10
12/24/2023 9:10pm
dolface wrote:
Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance...

Remember when everyone was yelling about how we were gonna see a ton of broken chainstays due to direct mount? I haven't seen a single instance; have any of y'all? Or even heard of one?

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the...

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

az2au wrote:
I saw the chewing problem on a buddy's Stumpjumper Evo but I can tell you with certainty that it was his fault and not SRAMs.  He...

I saw the chewing problem on a buddy's Stumpjumper Evo but I can tell you with certainty that it was his fault and not SRAMs.  He was using an axle that "fit" but wasn't the correct one and was slightly too big and didn't torque the derailleur properly because it "stuck" when he did.  So, yeah, he's an idiot who should't be touch his bike for maintenance, but that's the way it starts chewing into the frame.

Other than the slight slipping problem I have on one bike that appears to be related to a slightly off spec cassette, I have had zero problems on the 10 bikes I have installed it on and that includes two bikes that SRAM didn't list at the time of install where I just used the chain stay length to calculate the values.  It far exceeds my expectations on working with a wide range of variables.  If you could simply microshift at the gear level the majority of issues that most have would go away.

That's what's really annoying to me because it seems like it's a completely fixable problem via new firmware (or maybe even just a software update). Hopefully it's in the works and there isn't something stupid preventing them from implementing it.

2
notthatbryan
Posts
435
Joined
3/8/2023
Location
Acworth, GA, USA
12/25/2023 8:57am
A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the...

A friend at the shop I used to work at says they're getting Transmission problems all the time (mostly imprecise setup and some have had the mount start 'chewing' into the frame, but no broken stays as far as I know). Seems like it's generally better suited to a high standard of frame quality and very careful setup, two things not typically associated with most mountain bikes and their riders Wink

az2au wrote:
I saw the chewing problem on a buddy's Stumpjumper Evo but I can tell you with certainty that it was his fault and not SRAMs.  He...

I saw the chewing problem on a buddy's Stumpjumper Evo but I can tell you with certainty that it was his fault and not SRAMs.  He was using an axle that "fit" but wasn't the correct one and was slightly too big and didn't torque the derailleur properly because it "stuck" when he did.  So, yeah, he's an idiot who should't be touch his bike for maintenance, but that's the way it starts chewing into the frame.

Other than the slight slipping problem I have on one bike that appears to be related to a slightly off spec cassette, I have had zero problems on the 10 bikes I have installed it on and that includes two bikes that SRAM didn't list at the time of install where I just used the chain stay length to calculate the values.  It far exceeds my expectations on working with a wide range of variables.  If you could simply microshift at the gear level the majority of issues that most have would go away.

That's what's really annoying to me because it seems like it's a completely fixable problem via new firmware (or maybe even just a software update). Hopefully...

That's what's really annoying to me because it seems like it's a completely fixable problem via new firmware (or maybe even just a software update). Hopefully it's in the works and there isn't something stupid preventing them from implementing it.

This has been a common wish from consumers about the prior AXS also. I believe that Sram is using a stepper motor with a hardware fixed movement distance for each shift. Per gear micro adjust would require a different motor.

3
Primoz
Posts
4676
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
12/25/2023 9:52am

First gen MTB AXS already has micro adjust. Even if they are using a stepper motor (would make sense from some standpoints), there was information when the first derailleurs came out that they are running the motor at 10.000 rpm, so I seriously doubt that gear position can't be tuned more finely than what is available. I think the main point was to make the system as fool proof as possible (set position and thus a mount and forget product). Judging by the comments here that creates more issues.

3
12/25/2023 3:10pm
Primoz wrote:
First gen MTB AXS already has micro adjust. Even if they are using a stepper motor (would make sense from some standpoints), there was information when...

First gen MTB AXS already has micro adjust. Even if they are using a stepper motor (would make sense from some standpoints), there was information when the first derailleurs came out that they are running the motor at 10.000 rpm, so I seriously doubt that gear position can't be tuned more finely than what is available. I think the main point was to make the system as fool proof as possible (set position and thus a mount and forget product). Judging by the comments here that creates more issues.

I'm specifically talking about twisting, i.e if the mount is partially twisted (off axis), the derailleur can't adjust to that (to my knowledge).

The view that we will make it so strong it won't deform and twist, is inferior in my opinion to a design where you can simply twist it back into alignment.

8
birdman2447
Posts
8
Joined
5/9/2017
Location
Poland, ME, USA
12/27/2023 4:37am

Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should see complete forks released and in stock? 

Also, is this this 24' damper tune the same one Jordi is talking about in the Dialed videos? 

 

Thanks!

3
noodlenosteeze
Posts
219
Joined
1/12/2023
Location
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
12/27/2023 11:15am
Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should...

Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should see complete forks released and in stock? 

Also, is this this 24' damper tune the same one Jordi is talking about in the Dialed videos? 

 

Thanks!

2024 obviously Smile

4
1
12/27/2023 3:23pm
Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should...

Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should see complete forks released and in stock? 

Also, is this this 24' damper tune the same one Jordi is talking about in the Dialed videos? 

 

Thanks!

Chatted with my LBS today and the 2024 damper cartridge is in stock and available right now. No 2024 forks available yet, and no details on what the new cartridge entails, but Fluid Focus had posted on their Instagram a little while back comparing the 2024 tune to their grip2 custom tune. 

3
SilentG
Posts
43
Joined
8/5/2019
Location
Prescott, AZ, USA
12/28/2023 4:14am
Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should...

Fox has bunch of the new 2024 38 part numbers on there site now. Dampers, comp and rebound tune assembly, etc. Anyone know when we should see complete forks released and in stock? 

Also, is this this 24' damper tune the same one Jordi is talking about in the Dialed videos? 

 

Thanks!

Kapolczer wrote:
Chatted with my LBS today and the 2024 damper cartridge is in stock and available right now. No 2024 forks available yet, and no details on...

Chatted with my LBS today and the 2024 damper cartridge is in stock and available right now. No 2024 forks available yet, and no details on what the new cartridge entails, but Fluid Focus had posted on their Instagram a little while back comparing the 2024 tune to their grip2 custom tune. 

The Fluid Focus IG post in case anyone was interested - https://www.instagram.com/p/CzM3aLPPpEQ/

9
nollak
Posts
77
Joined
11/27/2020
Location
DE
12/28/2023 11:52pm

Just seen in Finale Ligure:

IMG 9767

Seems like Formula has an Air Can in the works.

9
Primoz
Posts
4676
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
12/29/2023 12:02am

Isn't an air shock from Formula a long known open secret? 

monarchmason
Posts
323
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA, USA
12/29/2023 7:50am
nollak wrote:
Just seen in Finale Ligure: Seems like Formula has an Air Can in the works.

Just seen in Finale Ligure:

IMG 9767

Seems like Formula has an Air Can in the works.

Thats sick but I want that fork. To be honest if it worked at 160mm Id take it just for the advantage of having a perfectly aligned stem. I know, first world mtb problems. 

6
Noeserd
Posts
183
Joined
10/21/2020
Location
TR
12/29/2023 12:14pm

The air can is very monarch like 

 

asdawesddfzx 0

1
samdaman1
Posts
47
Joined
12/18/2016
Location
GB
12/29/2023 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 12/29/2023 2:01pm
nollak wrote:
Just seen in Finale Ligure: Seems like Formula has an Air Can in the works.

Just seen in Finale Ligure:

IMG 9767

Seems like Formula has an Air Can in the works.

Thats sick but I want that fork. To be honest if it worked at 160mm Id take it just for the advantage of having a perfectly...

Thats sick but I want that fork. To be honest if it worked at 160mm Id take it just for the advantage of having a perfectly aligned stem. I know, first world mtb problems. 

Yeah I can't tell if that's a Nero or the prototype dual crown Selva, but the latter would be an interesting product in a lot of ways, although given that not all manufacturers will let you run dual crown forks on their enduro bikes (pretty sure it voids the warranty on a Bronson for example), I'm not sure how well it would sell and if it would perhaps result in more enduro bikes with built in fork bumpers, etc

1
12/29/2023 3:07pm
samdaman1 wrote:
Yeah I can't tell if that's a Nero or the prototype dual crown Selva, but the latter would be an interesting product in a lot of...

Yeah I can't tell if that's a Nero or the prototype dual crown Selva, but the latter would be an interesting product in a lot of ways, although given that not all manufacturers will let you run dual crown forks on their enduro bikes (pretty sure it voids the warranty on a Bronson for example), I'm not sure how well it would sell and if it would perhaps result in more enduro bikes with built in fork bumpers, etc

Keep in mind a manufacturer can’t really void a warranty. They can disclaim damage due to particular things. A warranty covers a lot of stuff. If your BB starts falling out that’s not related to fork and should still be covered. But if anything starts happening to the head tube you may be out of luck. Personally I’m a fan of dual crowns because it’s really the best solution to CSU creak. Have run them on bikes that weren’t really supposed to have one and would do it again. Especially if there was a slightly lighter option. Under normal circumstances there is no additional stress on the head tube. The concern is getting crossed up and slamming the stanchion into the side. Personally I think in a scenario like that all bets are off anyway. 

11
mcfadden999
Posts
53
Joined
12/29/2023
Location
Albuquerque, NM, USA
12/29/2023 6:01pm
Keep in mind a manufacturer can’t really void a warranty. They can disclaim damage due to particular things. A warranty covers a lot of stuff. If...

Keep in mind a manufacturer can’t really void a warranty. They can disclaim damage due to particular things. A warranty covers a lot of stuff. If your BB starts falling out that’s not related to fork and should still be covered. But if anything starts happening to the head tube you may be out of luck. Personally I’m a fan of dual crowns because it’s really the best solution to CSU creak. Have run them on bikes that weren’t really supposed to have one and would do it again. Especially if there was a slightly lighter option. Under normal circumstances there is no additional stress on the head tube. The concern is getting crossed up and slamming the stanchion into the side. Personally I think in a scenario like that all bets are off anyway. 

Right and will they warranty cracks from stress due to custom links?

9
monarchmason
Posts
323
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA, USA
12/29/2023 6:35pm
Keep in mind a manufacturer can’t really void a warranty. They can disclaim damage due to particular things. A warranty covers a lot of stuff. If...

Keep in mind a manufacturer can’t really void a warranty. They can disclaim damage due to particular things. A warranty covers a lot of stuff. If your BB starts falling out that’s not related to fork and should still be covered. But if anything starts happening to the head tube you may be out of luck. Personally I’m a fan of dual crowns because it’s really the best solution to CSU creak. Have run them on bikes that weren’t really supposed to have one and would do it again. Especially if there was a slightly lighter option. Under normal circumstances there is no additional stress on the head tube. The concern is getting crossed up and slamming the stanchion into the side. Personally I think in a scenario like that all bets are off anyway. 

You know, this makes me curious. Obviously frame design innovation (geo and suspension designs) is slowing down dramatically in the industry. I wonder if the next big thing will be allowing for frames to have features that make a bronson come with bumpers or have additional features like working with companies to produce after market links (I think about Cascade and the Habit mullet link). Or not I dont know.

1
12/29/2023 7:12pm

Saw the new Rocky Mountain bike in Santa Cruz today, looks like a vpp with the upper link pivot about halfway up and directly in front of the seat tube.  Rear triangle looked compact and burly. Two tone paint job, no stickers, angles looked good. 

12
12/29/2023 7:45pm

Right and will they warranty cracks from stress due to custom links?

You know the answer to that. Good thing it’s not happening.

10
12/29/2023 7:50pm
You know, this makes me curious. Obviously frame design innovation (geo and suspension designs) is slowing down dramatically in the industry. I wonder if the next...

You know, this makes me curious. Obviously frame design innovation (geo and suspension designs) is slowing down dramatically in the industry. I wonder if the next big thing will be allowing for frames to have features that make a bronson come with bumpers or have additional features like working with companies to produce after market links (I think about Cascade and the Habit mullet link). Or not I dont know.

It would definitely be cool to work with more companies on aftermarket stuff. I’m not really sure why there’s pushback with links. No one (there are a couple of exceptions) is doing different options for their own bikes. It wouldn’t really make sense from a supply chain standpoint. The volumes aren’t on the same level as complete bikes. More options are always nice to have. 

18
stoic_machine
Posts
194
Joined
12/27/2018
Location
Dildo, Newfoundland, CA
12/30/2023 7:51am
Saw the new Rocky Mountain bike in Santa Cruz today, looks like a vpp with the upper link pivot about halfway up and directly in front...

Saw the new Rocky Mountain bike in Santa Cruz today, looks like a vpp with the upper link pivot about halfway up and directly in front of the seat tube.  Rear triangle looked compact and burly. Two tone paint job, no stickers, angles looked good. 

They are crazy quiet too. Was on a ride a few months back with one of the test mules and was generally surprised how quiet that bike was rambling down the mountain...

Wish they would ditch their stupid Ride 9 system though... I believe the new rig it has what they are calling "ride 4" either way it causes more confusion for the end customer than it does any good.

1
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