Shimano... Magura... Shigura Brake Setup

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bizutch
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bizutch 10/15/2021 7:58am
10/15/2021 7:58am
bizutch wrote:
I'm still in love with the fact that most mid-grade mountain bike brakes stop the bike.

Signed - DH with cantilevers
Big Bird wrote:
Don't you pine for the four finger braking days? I figured that I was a better rider than most because I could hold onto the bars...
Don't you pine for the four finger braking days? I figured that I was a better rider than most because I could hold onto the bars with my thumb and forefinger and do my braking with only three. Never quite went pro...
Yeah...kids these days will never know the sensation of descending a freshly bush hogged double black grass ski slope and the further down you get, the more the morning dew leaps onto your cantilever pads and alloy rims....and the more you become a rocketship fueled by survival despite an entire fist of fingers pulling both levers in hopes you can get hem to create any friction whatsoever.

And then....soaking up the waterbars on your 2.1" tire equipped hardtail with 2" Answer Alumilite riser bar and Judy SL Ti converted to the 3" Judy DH coil White Brothers kit.

We tasted death with cantilevers and moisture in the olden days of yore!!!

10
NoahColorado 10/15/2021 8:00am
10/15/2021 8:00am
I might have to try this, as I've had some MT7 Trails sitting in a box for a few years. I loved the power, but getting a good bleed was hard and the pads always rubbed.
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Bilbawbaggins 10/15/2021 8:45am
10/15/2021 8:45am
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will destroy Shimano seals over time.
From Shimano: "We should really call it “proprietary brake fluid” but I guess that doesn’t have the same ring to it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that Magura fluid will destroy Shimano brakes in a very short amount of time. I’ve seen it happen several times."
https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-…
Although I've read many more anecdotal accounts of it being absolutely fine I'd choose which fluid to run with caution.
TimBud
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TimBud 10/15/2021 10:15am
10/15/2021 10:15am Edited Date/Time 10/15/2021 12:20pm
NoahColorado wrote:
I might have to try this, as I've had some MT7 Trails sitting in a box for a few years. I loved the power, but getting...
I might have to try this, as I've had some MT7 Trails sitting in a box for a few years. I loved the power, but getting a good bleed was hard and the pads always rubbed.
I know it sounds flippant, but its really easy with the genuine Magura kit (not the pro kit though) and with the Magura methods. They have pretty good tech videos and docs on their site. The amount of people I know that have issues and its always because they're trying to bodge it.

My Shigura is with Shimano oil because I figured that the calliper is pretty bombproof and the Shimano levers are designed for it.
It always baffles me when people mix fluids and then complain about performance issues

My setup for reference:


Primoz
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Primoz 10/15/2021 1:05pm
10/15/2021 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2021 1:06pm
Bilbawbaggins wrote:
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will...
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will destroy Shimano seals over time.
From Shimano: "We should really call it “proprietary brake fluid” but I guess that doesn’t have the same ring to it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that Magura fluid will destroy Shimano brakes in a very short amount of time. I’ve seen it happen several times."
https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-…
Although I've read many more anecdotal accounts of it being absolutely fine I'd choose which fluid to run with caution.
They said the gist of it, both of them:
"Shimano: Absolutely not, mineral oil is an unfortunate term to use because it is so vague and generic."
"SRAM/Avid: We use Glycol based fluids, specifically DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 for a number of reasons. DOT fluid has a high boiling point, is manufactured to an agreed upon set of safety standards and is readily available in any auto or motorcycle store."

Though, honestly, 'A competitor's mineral brake fluid will eat our seals' seems like a far fetched thing to say. For example, Trelleborg has a rubber seal chemical compatibility document outlining compatibility of different rubber materials to different chemicals. There are 25 pages of different chemicals listed. One of them is, and I quote, 'Mineral Oil' (I read this as a catch-all term for different mineral oils as they are that similar between each other in chemical properties).
https://www.tss.trelleborg.com/-/media/tss-media-repository/tss_website…

If Shimano seals and Magura oil really are that incompatible, someone is doing something weird.
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gvasvari
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gvasvari 10/15/2021 1:12pm
10/15/2021 1:12pm
Guys... just get a bottle of Bionol when they are back in stock. Compatible with all the mineral oil brakes. ;-)
https://trickstuff.de/bionol/?lang=en
And some major german webshops usually have it as well.

I had a 1000ml bottle and used it on every mineral compatible systems (Magura, Shimano, Formula, Rotor) without any problems at all.
2
Bilbawbaggins 10/15/2021 1:29pm
10/15/2021 1:29pm
Bilbawbaggins wrote:
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will...
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will destroy Shimano seals over time.
From Shimano: "We should really call it “proprietary brake fluid” but I guess that doesn’t have the same ring to it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that Magura fluid will destroy Shimano brakes in a very short amount of time. I’ve seen it happen several times."
https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-…
Although I've read many more anecdotal accounts of it being absolutely fine I'd choose which fluid to run with caution.
Primoz wrote:
They said the gist of it, both of them: "Shimano: Absolutely not, mineral oil is an unfortunate term to use because it is so vague and...
They said the gist of it, both of them:
"Shimano: Absolutely not, mineral oil is an unfortunate term to use because it is so vague and generic."
"SRAM/Avid: We use Glycol based fluids, specifically DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 for a number of reasons. DOT fluid has a high boiling point, is manufactured to an agreed upon set of safety standards and is readily available in any auto or motorcycle store."

Though, honestly, 'A competitor's mineral brake fluid will eat our seals' seems like a far fetched thing to say. For example, Trelleborg has a rubber seal chemical compatibility document outlining compatibility of different rubber materials to different chemicals. There are 25 pages of different chemicals listed. One of them is, and I quote, 'Mineral Oil' (I read this as a catch-all term for different mineral oils as they are that similar between each other in chemical properties).
https://www.tss.trelleborg.com/-/media/tss-media-repository/tss_website…

If Shimano seals and Magura oil really are that incompatible, someone is doing something weird.
There has to be an aftermarket mineral oil that's just fine. When I was looking around for alternate fluid because Shimano was getting harder to come by I saw that and figured it was worth the extra few dollars to mail order, since the thread is about Shigura it seems was worth sharing. I am interested in that fork oil solution, still not seen too much information on it's long term use yet nor is it available in Canada to try out.....
Primoz
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Primoz 10/15/2021 1:32pm
10/15/2021 1:32pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2021 1:35pm
No problem at all in sharing it. I'm just saying it kinda seems like 'use our proprietary oil that is otherwise more or less the same as our competitor's or Citroen's LHM, but we won't say that because we want to sell ours and we will scare you into doing that by claiming our product will fail otherwise'. Either that or the failures are real, which, like I said, means someone is doing something weird - if Magura's oil is corrosive for Shimano brakes, what kind of seals is Magura using for them to survive? Or what is the compound that does the damage?

Different industries have much higher requirements for the components than (mountian)biking industry does. There are a few solutions that work well. Time and time it has turned out bike component suppliers use the same solutions, but market them as proprietary, because a lot of people simply don't know about these things. Sort of a win-win situation for them really.
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Edthorne
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Edthorne 10/15/2021 1:42pm
10/15/2021 1:42pm
Primoz wrote:
No problem at all in sharing it. I'm just saying it kinda seems like 'use our proprietary oil that is otherwise more or less the same...
No problem at all in sharing it. I'm just saying it kinda seems like 'use our proprietary oil that is otherwise more or less the same as our competitor's or Citroen's LHM, but we won't say that because we want to sell ours and we will scare you into doing that by claiming our product will fail otherwise'. Either that or the failures are real, which, like I said, means someone is doing something weird - if Magura's oil is corrosive for Shimano brakes, what kind of seals is Magura using for them to survive? Or what is the compound that does the damage?

Different industries have much higher requirements for the components than (mountian)biking industry does. There are a few solutions that work well. Time and time it has turned out bike component suppliers use the same solutions, but market them as proprietary, because a lot of people simply don't know about these things. Sort of a win-win situation for them really.
It might also have something to do with controlling variables for warranty claims. Or in a more cynical thought process, it could be an easy excuse for denying warranty claims.
5
Bilbawbaggins 10/15/2021 1:51pm
10/15/2021 1:51pm
Oh yeah, I'm totally with you and agree on every point. Cycling is not a big enough industry by any means to demand proprietary anything from global industries. They may get an exclusive cycling use deal but that's something else, it's all re-branded and upsold automotive or whatever stuff.
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TayRob
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TayRob 10/15/2021 8:53pm
10/15/2021 8:53pm
Just food for thought, I recently learned that Shimano also states that using Finish Line branded mineral oil will void warranty and cause problems. Which I thought was weird because how the hell would they ever know? The Finish Line stuff is even pink like the Shimano stuff. Sounds to me like they just have a blanket "don't use anything else" policy to, as soneone else stated, possibly cut back on warranty issues.
2
tabletop84 10/16/2021 3:45am
10/16/2021 3:45am Edited Date/Time 10/16/2021 3:47am
Bilbawbaggins wrote:
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will...
I was recently researching replacement mineral oil for my brakes and came upon a few things that warned about mixing brands. Apparently the Magura stuff will destroy Shimano seals over time.
From Shimano: "We should really call it “proprietary brake fluid” but I guess that doesn’t have the same ring to it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that Magura fluid will destroy Shimano brakes in a very short amount of time. I’ve seen it happen several times."
https://bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-…
Although I've read many more anecdotal accounts of it being absolutely fine I'd choose which fluid to run with caution.
Mixing or using DOT in a mineral oil brake is not a good idea but with putoline there are many people who fixed their wandering bite point issue on shimano brakes by using this thinner fork fluid:

https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/search/4758745/?q=putoline&o=relevance

But there is also one guy who thinks that the oil damaged his seals: https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/druckpunktwandern-shimano-xt-m8000.7713…

But hard to say if its really because of the oil. I use putoline for a seson now and brakes work predictable apart from the rare bite point issue on the rear brake which might be a bad bleed.



Primoz
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Primoz 10/16/2021 7:02am
10/16/2021 7:02am
I don't think anyone suggested mixing dot and mineral oil. If anything, you really shouldn't do that.
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piggy
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piggy 10/16/2021 1:37pm
10/16/2021 1:37pm
EugenM wrote:
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt...
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt or xtr. I got the levers(m8100) and the mt7 calipers are on their way so, I guess I'll soon find out. 🙄🤷🏿‍♂️
Are the x100 series levers the linear ones - ie non servowave? I thought you could only get deore and xtr race levers but quick search turned up xt 8100 levers without the servo wave - that’s what I’m looking for I think. Curious to hear how your setup is once you get it.
EugenM
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EugenM 10/16/2021 2:41pm
10/16/2021 2:41pm
EugenM wrote:
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt...
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt or xtr. I got the levers(m8100) and the mt7 calipers are on their way so, I guess I'll soon find out. 🙄🤷🏿‍♂️
piggy wrote:
Are the x100 series levers the linear ones - ie non servowave? I thought you could only get deore and xtr race levers but quick search...
Are the x100 series levers the linear ones - ie non servowave? I thought you could only get deore and xtr race levers but quick search turned up xt 8100 levers without the servo wave - that’s what I’m looking for I think. Curious to hear how your setup is once you get it.
yup, that's what my mechanic friend recommend.. shimano levers without servowave. I'll get back to this thread after I have the set-up installed and give it a proper test. I can only compare it with the Saints, which I used for the last 5 years on every bike bar the gravel one.
andreastheodorou 10/17/2021 11:58am
10/17/2021 11:58am
Or you just get yourself a set of Hayes Dominion A4. The end.
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EugenM
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EugenM 10/19/2021 3:01pm
10/19/2021 3:01pm
EugenM wrote:
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt...
if you ask a bike mechanic, he will say the proper combo are the x100 brake levers and not x120 levers, be it, deore, slx, xt or xtr. I got the levers(m8100) and the mt7 calipers are on their way so, I guess I'll soon find out. 🙄🤷🏿‍♂️
piggy wrote:
Are the x100 series levers the linear ones - ie non servowave? I thought you could only get deore and xtr race levers but quick search...
Are the x100 series levers the linear ones - ie non servowave? I thought you could only get deore and xtr race levers but quick search turned up xt 8100 levers without the servo wave - that’s what I’m looking for I think. Curious to hear how your setup is once you get it.
EugenM wrote:
yup, that's what my mechanic friend recommend.. shimano levers without servowave. I'll get back to this thread after I have the set-up installed and give it...
yup, that's what my mechanic friend recommend.. shimano levers without servowave. I'll get back to this thread after I have the set-up installed and give it a proper test. I can only compare it with the Saints, which I used for the last 5 years on every bike bar the gravel one.
quick up-date. I talked with someone from the importer of Shimano in my country and it seems that for this generation, all the levers have servowave...whiiiich is a bummer(as I could have had the xtr levers)... but, I will see what's what. I planned a 220-200 set-up but, it might be uber-uber-... - uber kill so maybe I'll just use a 200-180 one.
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gvasvari
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gvasvari 10/19/2021 3:19pm
10/19/2021 3:19pm
Don't worry, servowave plays very nice with the MT calipers. I have SLX BL-M7100, XT 8100, XTR 9120 levers, all feel much better than the Magura HC3. This is first hand experience, not just some friend's recommendation.
Of all these I prefer the feel of XTR but thats not cheap. XT is also fine but very similar to SLX. As a bonus the color matches with MT7 caliper's.

If you really need non-servo then XTR BL-M9100 might be your only option.


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EugenM
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EugenM 10/20/2021 12:45am
10/20/2021 12:45am
gvasvari wrote:
Don't worry, servowave plays very nice with the MT calipers. I have SLX BL-M7100, XT 8100, XTR 9120 levers, all feel much better than the Magura...
Don't worry, servowave plays very nice with the MT calipers. I have SLX BL-M7100, XT 8100, XTR 9120 levers, all feel much better than the Magura HC3. This is first hand experience, not just some friend's recommendation.
Of all these I prefer the feel of XTR but thats not cheap. XT is also fine but very similar to SLX. As a bonus the color matches with MT7 caliper's.

If you really need non-servo then XTR BL-M9100 might be your only option.


thx man. I'm ok, I'll try the set-up. My only gripe is that I brought xt x100 levers specifically with the ideea of not having servowave. If I knew from the start that regardless of the series, they have servowave, I would have brought the xtrs. As for the magura's levers.. that's a no go for me. I tried it, did not liked it. Anyway thx for the info. cheers!
Reiko Rosenthal 6/2/2022 11:54am
6/2/2022 11:54am
Hello.
Has anyone had a similar problem? I installed a SHIMANO XTR BR-M9120 lever and a Magura MT 7 caliper. I use Shimano RT-MT905 brake discs, Magura Royal blood mineral oil. I bleed the brakes but the gap between the brake disc and the pads is so small that it can be heard all the time.
Anderholm 6/5/2022 11:21pm
6/5/2022 11:21pm
I’ve used a ‘generic’ automotive brake mineral oil for Shimanos and Maguras for getting on for 15 years and had zero problems. I initially went to a Citroen garage but now I can get from my local Repco.
ZAKBROWN!
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ZAKBROWN! 6/6/2022 11:08am
6/6/2022 11:08am
Reiko Rosenthal wrote:
Hello. Has anyone had a similar problem? I installed a SHIMANO XTR BR-M9120 lever and a Magura MT 7 caliper. I use Shimano RT-MT905 brake discs...
Hello.
Has anyone had a similar problem? I installed a SHIMANO XTR BR-M9120 lever and a Magura MT 7 caliper. I use Shimano RT-MT905 brake discs, Magura Royal blood mineral oil. I bleed the brakes but the gap between the brake disc and the pads is so small that it can be heard all the time.
Shimano rotors are 1.8mm new, which is the wear limit for Magura rotors (2mm new). I've had better results using Magura rotors with those levers and calipers. Even with that it can be tedious to get a rub free setup - I've gone back to Magura levers even though the XTR levers really fit my hands better because it was too much work keeping the Shiguras running perfectly.
ŁukaszŁusiarczyk 11/1/2022 2:00pm
11/1/2022 2:00pm
Reiko Rosenthal wrote:
Hello. Has anyone had a similar problem? I installed a SHIMANO XTR BR-M9120 lever and a Magura MT 7 caliper. I use Shimano RT-MT905 brake discs...
Hello.
Has anyone had a similar problem? I installed a SHIMANO XTR BR-M9120 lever and a Magura MT 7 caliper. I use Shimano RT-MT905 brake discs, Magura Royal blood mineral oil. I bleed the brakes but the gap between the brake disc and the pads is so small that it can be heard all the time.
ZAKBROWN! wrote:
Shimano rotors are 1.8mm new, which is the wear limit for Magura rotors (2mm new). I've had better results using Magura rotors with those levers and...
Shimano rotors are 1.8mm new, which is the wear limit for Magura rotors (2mm new). I've had better results using Magura rotors with those levers and calipers. Even with that it can be tedious to get a rub free setup - I've gone back to Magura levers even though the XTR levers really fit my hands better because it was too much work keeping the Shiguras running perfectly.

Too much work to keep it working good?  Could you explain me what you meant,  please?  Thinking about trying shigura setup but not convinced yet.

ZAKBROWN!
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ZAKBROWN! 11/1/2022 2:33pm
11/1/2022 2:33pm
ŁukaszŁusiarczyk wrote:

Too much work to keep it working good?  Could you explain me what you meant,  please?  Thinking about trying shigura setup but not convinced yet.

Yeah - just very little pad gap so a constant battle to keep them running rub free, and lots more cup bleeding on the Shimano levers to keep them consistent.  With the Magura levers they stay way more consistent with less maintenance. 

TimBud
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TimBud 11/5/2022 4:02am
11/5/2022 4:02am

Very few issues for me. Including 2 ½ weeks of solid Alps riding this summer. Only had to change the rear pads in that time

No more bleeding than a regular Shimano or Magura setup.

I have some pad rub, but thats down to the MDR-P rotors that are a pain to true. Won’t be getting them again.

XTR levers, Shimano barb and olive, Shimano mineral oil.

Primoz
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Primoz 11/5/2022 4:33am
11/5/2022 4:33am

Pain to true? The caliper on the floating bolts on the frame? Could the issue be that the rotor is positioned sideways (since it's floating) when you're setting up the caliper and centering the rotor on the carrier would make it easier? The rotor floating side-to-side will still create some pad rub, but it should be minimal (mostly only making noise, shouldn't drag that much). This is mostly guessing though, don't have any experience with any of the components from the setup (or floating rotors for that matter).

TimBud
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TimBud 11/5/2022 4:53am
11/5/2022 4:53am Edited Date/Time 11/5/2022 4:54am

The rotors just aren’t true and because of the float on the carrier it’s really hard to get them even close to straight. Normally it’s not an issue but on my setup clearance is minimal so there’s always a bit of brushing. It’s annoying but yeah I don’t notice it while riding.

The individual pads do make it super easy to align everything and get the pistons actuating evenly. Love the MT callipers for that.

1
rich.gardiner 2/20/2024 1:11pm
2/20/2024 1:11pm

Hey guys,

Sorry to dig up an old thread.

I’ve got XTR M9120 levers, thinking of getting the MT7 calipers. Is the below setup correct? I wasn’t sure about which hose to use and which banjo connector to the caliper.

lever: shimano

olive: shimano

insert: shimano

hose/lever connector nut: shimano

rubber cover: shimano

hose: magura

hose/caliper banjo connection magura

caliper: magura

2
TimBud
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TimBud 2/20/2024 1:23pm
2/20/2024 1:23pm
rich.gardiner wrote:
Hey guys, Sorry to dig up an old thread. I’ve got XTR M9120 levers, thinking of getting the MT7 calipers. Is the below setup correct? I...

Hey guys,

Sorry to dig up an old thread.

I’ve got XTR M9120 levers, thinking of getting the MT7 calipers. Is the below setup correct? I wasn’t sure about which hose to use and which banjo connector to the caliper.

lever: shimano

olive: shimano

insert: shimano

hose/lever connector nut: shimano

rubber cover: shimano

hose: magura

hose/caliper banjo connection magura

caliper: magura

That’s what i used

1

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