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I feel sorry for the athletes who got beat by them.
Always found it odd to be using a fat burner during practice for an EWS, but admittedly expect these guys know a lot more about the right supplements/nutrition to be using than I do. Maybe someone else on here can explain the merits of using that type of thing in practice.
Picture originally from EWS Corral, Chile pit-bits 2016
I'd suggest reading the interviews Jared and Richie just did on the subject first. Then read about the substances. Then remember that this is all still in the early days of being dealt with - don't get ugly on here, let the process cast a verdict.
And, unlike the Team Rumors thread, keep things factual if possible and not just wildly speculative. This is science, keep things moving in the vein of facts and figures.
Sucks that it was Rude and Graves, I get it. Would have been easier to stomach had it been some Euros, right?
Very interesting Re: picture of sups and circled container!
Furthermore, this has all occurred under the French Anit-Doping, the UCI and EWS themselves were not involved in this (it's a French-specific regulation) - it's just interesting in regards to what implications this has going forward with a verdict, in that the UCI is actually not directly involved in this matter, nor is the EWS. They would just have to rule on the verdict given, as to how it would pertain to their own regulations (that's my understanding).
This is a really interesting moment in the sport of MTB, I am curious to see how it is all dealt with, as it is a paradigm shift for sure one way or another.
On one hand I've been around competitive cycling, in just about every discipline, for most of my life (20 years?). Doping and cycling have been synonymous since I can remember. Like others in this thread (and on Pinkbike) I also want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but struggle to do so, as I was probably the biggest "lance is clean" guy going...and was made to look a fool. (this happened other times too)
I also find it a bit unnerving and a bummer to see that photo of Graves taking all those "supplements". I put this in quotes because the word supplements can encompass so much. From a simple vitamin to some bath salts like substance.
...and its here I think my inner dialog starts to hee and haw.
On one hand David is right, these are pros getting paid to ride their bikes. They should be aware of what the rules are. They should be aware of what they are putting in their bodies.
On the other hand, everyone is looking for an edge, and where the line between a "clean edge" (good bikes setup, good diet) and a dirty edge (taking a pill that makes you faster) can start to become more and more grey.
I think most of us think of doping as shady back ally type stuff with scandalous doctors with names that remind us of Italian sports cars, needles, and an obvious "choice" toward cheating. EG: the doping rage of the 90s and 2000s was not a "oh, I didn't realize EPO was banned" type of thing. It was cat and mouse style cheating. It was super obvious, and the athletes themselves knew it.
This certainly doesn't seem like that. They genuinely seemed oblivious to the fact they were doing it. Like they were driving down an old highway whereby the speed limit was changed unbeknownst to drivers. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be cited, but it does mean we probably shouldn't burn them alive.
The remaining questions to me include how much this stuff really impacts your performance? How many other substances are like it that we may or may not be taking? Are there supplement companies that are certified WADA compliant?
As much as I want to be hard on them for pushing the limit of nutrition, I can't. I've done the same thing. I've got magnesium pills. I've taken asprin before a run to keep my arm pump down. I've used an inhaler to quell my coughing fits at the end of a stage (I am diagnosed with asthma). I use caffeine to get me through a day. My point is I clearly have no ethical problem using a substance to be better. I just am operating under the motif of "others do it" so I assume its okay. I haven't read a WADA document or paid attention to this stuff.
...so ethically, morally, I'm no better than either one of these athletes. Presuming of course they had no idea what they were taking.
The EWS has a massive testing problem. This race was tested, others aren't, now with the UCI who knows whats what? Cmon. That alone should have resulted in a back room "guys you have to pay more attention" style of citation. Not this public witchhunt. But here I go flip flopping again.
Slap on the wrist. Let it go. EWS - get a plan together. And make it good. Let this serve as a warning to what could happen to the sport if its not regulated and structured properly.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/phil-gaimon-what-does-it-mean-to-be…
It sounds like this case was a genuine accident (and I truly hope it was).
While I agree WADA seems the gold-standard, and something everyone - from a recreational level racer to a super star should follow, I'm not sure this would be something I'd be hyper aware of if the sanctioning body didn't specify anything pertaining to doping until one fluke French race where testers happened to do their thing because it was in France.
I guess I'm just vague on what the rules even stated prior to UCI getting involved.
This was real testing, by a real governing body. Sanctions will come, and they'll be justified.
Considering that supplement photo (wow!) and the EWS's doping policy is it really that surprising that a couple of the most yolked and successful guys got popped winning endurance events that seem suited to those with a more slender physique? If it's in supplements being taken long term (as it at least appears in Graves' case), maybe they would have been popped long before those wins had there been ANY testing actually occurring?
IMO "intentional ingestion" or not, DOES speak to character but that's not really the point. The point is that at least 1 race was won while doping. Considering the number of wins these 2 have racked up it sure is shitty for all the people who got second place to one of them over the years.
First off, I'm not saying the testing wasn't real, I'm saying supplements such as these fall more in a grey area than EPO. EG - I could order them online right now, or go to a health food store and likely find something with them in it - and buy it without a license or a doctor on US soil. Sorry, but that's not the same as a pharmaceutical.
Second, I'm suggesting doping is very vaguely defined in enduro. The EWS itself has only a few hundred words in the rule book (at the end) on the subject. It mentions WADA zero times. One of the larger series I compete in doesn't even have an anti doping policy. Most don't.
Third, if you want to walk the high moral ground, fine. But you better be the type to not drink coffee or take caffeinated supplements during a race or ride. The type to leave the cold meds behind if you are riding your bike in a sanctioned event. The type to ask the promoter if your inhaler is okay. Point is - you'd better adhere to the "any performance enhancement via a drug is not okay" moral ground...or I'd say you are a hypocrite.
This isn't EPO or anabolic steroids. This stuff wasn't bought in a dark ally somewhere or prescribed by a shady doctor.
I'm not saying this is okay in the future, but I am saying due to loose definitions within the sport and the obscure ingredients they took it shouldn't be looked at the same way as the "real" doping agents.
If we as a society lose the ability to use judgement, and see most of life exists in the grey, we are doomed. In another way, there is a difference between murder 1 and manslaughter, and there ought to be. The second we lose this, we crumble across the board...
This is embarrassing. Don't try to equivocate or rationalize it.
How about a supplement such as magnesium. Again, proven to improve performance, and in this case is a "supplement".
There are hundreds of compounds that could be considered "performance enhancing". Some have been allowed and will continue to be allowed. Some were allowed, now are not allowed. Some were never allowed. Its not as straight forward as you are making it out to be.
Again, you keep arguing why I shouldn't rationalize my take all the while doing very little to rationalize your own take.
Your "logic" cannot be applied universally. You are being an ideologue unless you come from the belief that no substance should ever be taken in the name of performance....in which case an entire world of competitive sports would be a farce in your eyes.
I just really hope that this doesn't fuck with Jared's head too much during his chemo etc. Having stuff like this pulling you down when you need all the strength you can muster would be tough...
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