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8/6/2009
Location
Keene, NH
US
Edited Date/Time
11/25/2018 3:09am
Ok Vital Think Tank, I've got a topic I'm interested in exploring: Coil Shocks on Trail Bikes, more specifically, short-stroke coils on 150-or-less travel bikes.
I have a coil on my 160 adventure mobile, and it's sublime. That much I know, and as we've seen from the bike checks on here and the EWS, everyone is onto the concept with great enthusiasm.
The short-travel market though is a different story, the split still seems air-heavy, but with Ohlins and Cane Creek producing 200mm and 190mm x 51mm and less, there is real opportunity to get that coil-feeling on XC/ST-Trail bikes.
What are people's experiences so far? Are you happy you moved over to coil? Are there short-comings i.e. linear suspension designs which aren't ideal, weight, fine-tuning, etc. Do you want to move over but want to know more? Have you stuffed a 200mm shock where a 190mm should be to alter geo i.e. run a longer fork and higher bb?
It's the Autumn, and this is the time to talk tech so we can bench ride as the days grow shorter!
I have a coil on my 160 adventure mobile, and it's sublime. That much I know, and as we've seen from the bike checks on here and the EWS, everyone is onto the concept with great enthusiasm.
The short-travel market though is a different story, the split still seems air-heavy, but with Ohlins and Cane Creek producing 200mm and 190mm x 51mm and less, there is real opportunity to get that coil-feeling on XC/ST-Trail bikes.
What are people's experiences so far? Are you happy you moved over to coil? Are there short-comings i.e. linear suspension designs which aren't ideal, weight, fine-tuning, etc. Do you want to move over but want to know more? Have you stuffed a 200mm shock where a 190mm should be to alter geo i.e. run a longer fork and higher bb?
It's the Autumn, and this is the time to talk tech so we can bench ride as the days grow shorter!
Shorter travel bikes, say 115-130mm running on coil is certainly possible. However what will determine whether this is a good idea or not is the bike's kinematics, specifically the leverage ratio curve.
Most of these bikes were designed for an air shock. Going to a coil will yield so-so results, at best. I ran a coil on the SC HT LT with mixed results, ultimately deciding air was a better fit for the design and intended use.
That said, an uber progressive bike like the Jeffsy should work well with a coil at 140 (I think) of travel.
Anecdotally, those riding a shorter travel bike hard need all the ramp up they can get at the latter part of the bike's travel. Usually those wondering if a coil is a good idea in said application would be better sticking with what came on the bike, as you are likely looking to rally the shit out of the bike - something a linear shock with a short travel rear end won't really like.
Put another way, you need as much support and bottoming resistance as you can get in a shorter travel application "ridden like a downhill bike". Why negate this with a coil?
Anyway, now I'm just talking in circles...
This is obviously just like...my opinion. man.
What bike you thinking?
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2015/09/santa-cruz-bronson-2016.html
Leverage ratio curve is pretty flat overall (regressive/progressive).
Obviously, to each their own (not saying you are 'wrong'), but yeah, I'd say most would prefer the Float X2 over the DHX2 in this application.
My experience with air shocks = blown shocks and leaky seals, and during the time I bought the coil, Fox was recalling the floatX2, so my already lower confidence in air was even worse, and I thought Minnaar's bike looked sick with the orange coil in Rotarua a few years back...
I'd like to try the FloatX2 on the bike so if anyone wants to swap for testing purposes...
1) Don't listen to me *too* much. I'm a nerd. Lol. The cool part about bike setup is it really is personal. What works for me may not work for you, and vice versa. My job is to articulate why something should work, and why something in theory is good/bad/whatever
2) You can utilize damping to control the way a shock reacts to the ground/rider, but it isn't really a substitute for changes in spring rate (spring rate curve). One is speed sensitive, the other is position sensitive (unless its the DHX as woo pointed out).
3) I successfully ran the coil on the SC HT LT, I just preferred air at the end of the day. Look at the recent photos from Finale and you'll note Rat choice a coil on the LT too, despite a less than ideal leverage ratio curve. Point is, taste matters a lot. For me, it wasn't "awful", just as you suggested not as lively as I'd like and it actually made the bike feel as though it has less, not more, travel. DH X2 was the ticket, as it had near coil like small bump (I couldn't tell a difference) but ramped up extremely well, was more lively, was more supportive later in the stroke - a big plus for SC's leverage ratio curves (this side of the V10/Nomad G4).
4) Air shocks have improved drastically the last 2-3 years. Fox's Float X2 is superb, RS's metric stuff awesome. I'd stick to either of those and I think you'd find it compares nicely to your DHX2 - just with a different (more progressive) spring curve.
5) You can more easily adjust an air shock (shock pump vs springs) and also mess with the curve (bands), another big advantage of air. In some ways, it can be used as a "ride height" adjust, by altering the curve in combination with PSI - this is awesome depending on where you are riding and what you are doing...
Kid: specifically, the Al. Scout. Bike riiiips, I'm just always trying to run coil if I can. However, it's a bang-on linear suspension "curve", clearly designed with an air shock in mind. Whereas the Patrol, super progressive. Just interesting to look at the graphs and compare all of this, and imagine the meetings with the designers, testers, and engineers discussing the intended use, spec, and average consumer.
I have the new DPX2 on there, and I'm still dialing things in. At 210lbs in riding kit, air and I tend to be at odds with each other, so I was exploring my options just in case. But, that's being super picky and pertaining specifically to finite examples during my ride(s). The bike is a trail rocket and I'm really enjoying it - and the shock is performing very well, again, I am just asking a lot (nothing is perfect!).
If I had my druthers, everything would be progressive and run on a coil shock [because I'm a MOG and with the new climb switched a lot of coils now have, I see no reason to not always run coil shocks if possible].
Like I said, the digressive hook is really the big no no with going with a coil shock.
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/news/875 - Pic of the GOAT rallying some enduro on the bike that started the obession with the coil buzzing the shit out of that external dropper post routing.
Couple things... Fill that DPX2 with spacers, just to see if you like it. Its as un-coil as you can get, but give it a go as a bigger guy. I think you may like it.
Second, yeah, woo nailed it - coil on the scout = fine
Finally, yeah, I agree most frame designers would be smart to make all their frames inherently progressive. We went away from that in the era prior to fully understanding negative springs, air can volume etc. These days we can have a progressive frame and pair it with an air shock for excellent results (G4 Nomad for instance), or you can swap to a coil with equally (and sometimes better) results.
This wasn't really possible 5 years ago...
I recently switched from the Float X to a DHX2 with a climb switch. I like it but its kind of hard to get the settings right.
I am 195 and running a 300# spring, I am gauging the correct spring rate by measuring the sag and it seems to be spot on at 3/4 of an inch, shock length is 8.5
Could I benefit from a increased spring rate? Is sag a relevant number any way?
My guess is you are too light for that frame according to the calc I ran, but your sag is about right (its a 2.5" stroke right?)
Only thing to consider is the SB6 is a very linear curve, so going up a hair in spring rate isn't the worst idea.
Where are your other settings? What aren't you liking?
I am really happy with the small - medium bump compliance. Where its lacking is in bigger drops, successive big hits.
All I know off the top of my head is that one click of the HSC makes a huge difference.
Would a 50lb increase in spring rate be enough to notice or should I go from 300-400lb to test.
I see some guys on the race team running 450-550lb springs, similar weight and riding aggression.
Mojo's calc suggests you need to be on a 450 pound spring! LOL. Maybe give Yeti a buzz, but I'd guess a 400 would help!
http://www.mojo-store.co.uk/PBCPPlayer.asp?ID=1737817
Coming from a DH racing background, I really prefer coil. When I finally got back into trail riding and all my bikes came with Float rear shocks, I just never got on with air (again, big dude probz, the same issue with the Monarchs I've ridden - it's not a brand-specific issue), and while the DPX2 is a great middle ground, it's still not a coil. I'm curious to try the volume reducers just to see what happens though. I'm finally in the kind of shape I want to be where I could do multiple loops to test back-to-back.
I like air in principle, and I've enjoyed my current set up a lot recently when I've been riding away from my local. But, the places I mainly ride are so root-infested and chattery, that air just doesn't have that "off the top" flutter which is a huge boon to keeping my feet on the pedals (flats for life) and rear wheel tracking on rugged climbs. I was just at the Kingdom Trails on the Float 36/DPX2 combo two weeks ago, and it was sublime. But then, being in the Adirondacks this weekend on some of the roughest trails I've ever ridden, I was massively challenged (even after making compression adjustments before hand). This is mainly pertaining to actual "XC" scenarios, as when it comes to the descents, the speed and forces combine to make these "complaints" nonissues - which is also when the piggy-back air really shines, it didn't pack up once on me this weekend which had two different rough and fast descents. Horses for course as they say, and I'm just chasing perfection for my main trail network.
We are in an epoch of really refined bikes, which is great to see. There is something for everyone (provided budget isn't an issue!). I'm thrilled to be able to nerd out this hard with tuning options without needing to bring a Dremel into the mix.
The curve for that bike is pretty linear so it's a nice compliment and the Cane Creek shock has SO MUCH adjustability that tuning opportunities are on point. The climb switch makes the bike great on long climbs. Set it and forget it.
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2014/10/transition-smuggler-29-2015.h…
I think we'll start to see a lot of those set-ups next season!
Maestro, VPP, 4 Bar, Single pivot, FSR, DW Link, Split Pivot, Trek's Split Pivot Knock-Off - They can all be tuned to work with coil or air. Depends what the engineer wanted to do.
What will largely determine if its good or bad is this little graph here (or the forces graph)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-txTqTOrUQzM/U-QW3pXk6gI/AAAAAAAAUF8/x6MTEK-wn…
See how the curve of the Reign (and Trance) start at one leverage ratio (3.3) and then goes down to another leverage ratio (2.6). This is the progressiveness we are talkinga bout. Its harder and harder to move the shock through its travel (because the leverage ratio DECREASES - you have less of a lever! - as the wheel cycles)
Considering how high this ratio is to start, yes, its doubly good to go to a high quality coil (or air shock)
in this design - it will more easily overwhelm the damping capabilities of lesser shocks.
I had the chance to do some back-to-back coil versus air shock testing with RockShox in Whistler recently. It was on the new 165mm travel Devinci Spartan, but you guys will have even more interesting things to nerd out on when the feature is ready for the world to see.
It'd probably feel a bit more sporty but a hair more harsh, though I am really generalizing. You see a lot of pros going back and forth these days depending on if they want max progressiveness or a bit more linear-ness. Both have their place.
Good example is Gwin. You saw him run both this year. Kicker is his frame is progressive (actually very progressive) by nature. I can't remember where but he was mentioning he likes the coil more in his "old age" as its a bit more compliant (more linear) - but again, I know we saw him on both the FX2 and the DHX2 through the year.
Cool times we live in eh?!
for those of you with bronson gen-1 frames
https://www.pushindustries.com/collections/rear-shock/products/elevensi…
yeah, it is still a lot of money, but it should give that frame a healthy new lease on life i would think
I also noticed gwin was using both but from what I remember it seemed that I saw the FX2 more than the DHX2.
Definitely cool times to be a rider. This bike nerd shit is rad. LOL
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