Has anyone had any luck lever bleeding mavens with just the syringe? I feel like I've tried in the past and it's only made things worse...
Has anyone had any luck lever bleeding mavens with just the syringe? I feel like I've tried in the past and it's only made things worse. I was hoping to avoid a full bleed because I am lazy.
I've seemed to have good luck with it. Are you referring to using a syringe for ONLY a lever bleed?
Has anyone had any luck lever bleeding mavens with just the syringe? I feel like I've tried in the past and it's only made things worse...
Has anyone had any luck lever bleeding mavens with just the syringe? I feel like I've tried in the past and it's only made things worse. I was hoping to avoid a full bleed because I am lazy.
I've seemed to have good luck with it. Are you referring to using a syringe for ONLY a lever bleed?
yeah, I've tried using some Pinner bleed cups and do the lever bleeds like I've done with shimano brakes and it did not go well. I feel like I've only had success with full bleeds. Wanted to see if folks are having some success with lever bleed with syringes and how they are doing it.
yeah, I've tried using some Pinner bleed cups and do the lever bleeds like I've done with shimano brakes and it did not go well. I...
yeah, I've tried using some Pinner bleed cups and do the lever bleeds like I've done with shimano brakes and it did not go well. I feel like I've only had success with full bleeds. Wanted to see if folks are having some success with lever bleed with syringes and how they are doing it.
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by pulling a slight vacuum/flicking the lever, pressuring the system then closing it off. Hopefuly that helps.
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by...
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by pulling a slight vacuum/flicking the lever, pressuring the system then closing it off. Hopefuly that helps.
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I also appreciated the suggestion above to do a car brake bleed. I might try that next time I have to do a full bleed. Mavens are really hard to get all the air bubbles out of.
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I...
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I also appreciated the suggestion above to do a car brake bleed. I might try that next time I have to do a full bleed. Mavens are really hard to get all the air bubbles out of.
A few days ago I installed an internally routed rear brake on a frame I'm building up that didn't have handlebars/fork installed yet... Out of necessity I attached the lever to handlebars that I then stuck vertically into the head tube. Call it an even mixture of laziness and ingenuity. What this did was place the bleed hole with the syringe attached at the absolute highest point of the system. Logic would say that should give me the best chance to get all of the air out of the pesky lever reservoir. We'll see if dumb luck was helpful!
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by...
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by pulling a slight vacuum/flicking the lever, pressuring the system then closing it off. Hopefuly that helps.
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I...
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I also appreciated the suggestion above to do a car brake bleed. I might try that next time I have to do a full bleed. Mavens are really hard to get all the air bubbles out of.
i found the 2 syringes Push only or very light vacuum + working those pistons in and out many times work pretty great, there's so much air always trapped behind the pistons, also i bled a couple with the Bionol and found it way easier to bleed compared to the maxima oil that seems to love air and keeping it
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by...
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by pulling a slight vacuum/flicking the lever, pressuring the system then closing it off. Hopefuly that helps.
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I...
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I also appreciated the suggestion above to do a car brake bleed. I might try that next time I have to do a full bleed. Mavens are really hard to get all the air bubbles out of.
Are you putting in bleed blocks and winding the contact point out (away from the arrow) or just leaving it as is and slapping on the pinner cups.
I am so frustrated with my Mavens, they seem impossible to get consistent.
I got one good bleed on them and then the bike sat for a few months over winter while I moved and it went to shit. Every other bleed/piston massage seems to only stave off the pump-up bite point for less than half a day of riding. I’ve even had two different shops work on them in addition to myself.
I really want them to work right because everything else is great but if Hope’s new GR4s have firmed up the bite point then I think I’m getting rid of the Mavens.
If anyone has suggestions other than “must be a bad bleed” or “try massaging the pistons”, I’m all ears.
Are you putting in bleed blocks and winding the contact point out (away from the arrow) or just leaving it as is and slapping on the...
Are you putting in bleed blocks and winding the contact point out (away from the arrow) or just leaving it as is and slapping on the pinner cups.
Both, depending on the day and how much effort I'm willing to put in.
If I'm really feeling like a go getter, I put the bike in a stand with both wheels off, tilted waaaaaaaay up with the rear axle near the ground, unbolt the rear caliper, and hang it from the frame (with a bleed block) so it's all uphill from the bottom of the caliper to the bleed port in the lever. God I hate internal hose routing. Then I leave the lever zip-tied overnight and bleed in the morning, combined with multiple rounds of piston massages. These bleeds tend to help a lot.
But I've also done quick and dirty lever bleeds where I just stick a pad spacer in between the pads and leave the caliper in place on the frame. These (predictably) tend to be less fruitful.
Both, depending on the day and how much effort I'm willing to put in.If I'm really feeling like a go getter, I put the bike in...
Both, depending on the day and how much effort I'm willing to put in.
If I'm really feeling like a go getter, I put the bike in a stand with both wheels off, tilted waaaaaaaay up with the rear axle near the ground, unbolt the rear caliper, and hang it from the frame (with a bleed block) so it's all uphill from the bottom of the caliper to the bleed port in the lever. God I hate internal hose routing. Then I leave the lever zip-tied overnight and bleed in the morning, combined with multiple rounds of piston massages. These bleeds tend to help a lot.
But I've also done quick and dirty lever bleeds where I just stick a pad spacer in between the pads and leave the caliper in place on the frame. These (predictably) tend to be less fruitful.
To the point of hating internal hose routing, anyone have a recommendation for the best available stick on cable guides?
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The diaphragm for the reservoir has a lotta 90deg angles. Fluids (of which air is one) don't like moving smoothly around right angles. This might be making a proper purge of the system difficult, whether by cup or syringe. 2. They use a single timing port hole to allow fluid passage between the MC bore and the res. Might this create a choke point that is in turn causing a slight bit of cavitation during use? With the larger caliper pistons, there's more fluid moving to n fro. Can that timing port allow it to move smoothly in all brake actuation scenarios? This of course leads to the compression and banjo fittings. Are their diameters large enough to allow for smooth fluid movement in all actuation scenarios?
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The...
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The diaphragm for the reservoir has a lotta 90deg angles. Fluids (of which air is one) don't like moving smoothly around right angles. This might be making a proper purge of the system difficult, whether by cup or syringe. 2. They use a single timing port hole to allow fluid passage between the MC bore and the res. Might this create a choke point that is in turn causing a slight bit of cavitation during use? With the larger caliper pistons, there's more fluid moving to n fro. Can that timing port allow it to move smoothly in all brake actuation scenarios? This of course leads to the compression and banjo fittings. Are their diameters large enough to allow for smooth fluid movement in all actuation scenarios?
In all my messing with them, I’m pretty much convinced that the inconsistency comes from the caliper.
My personal theory is that something about the caliper causes the pads to roll back too slowly. It’s either the seal material is too soft, or there’s some sort of flow restriction. If you pull the lever multiple times quickly, you’re pulling the lever again before the pistons have retracted and that’s why they pump up.
I’ve been considering a couple of possible fixes to test:
1. Try to align the holes in the banjo bolt with the hole in the fitting for the hose. (This could explain why some people have zero issues with them, they just get lucky and all the holes line up nicely)
2. Try deburring, chamfering, or making the banjo bolt holes larger.
3. Try deburring or “porting” the transfer ports between the caliper halves. I’ve had to split the caliper a couple of times because I got a little impatient with my umpteenth piston massage and noticed that the ports looked kinda messy on the edges.
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR...
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft has been machined larger than stock to eliminate pad rattle”
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR...
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
I used small strips of hockey tape on the edge/back of the pads and they seemed to work well, but I don't push my brakes to super high temperatures. You can also try to open the retaining springs absurdly wide.
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The...
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The diaphragm for the reservoir has a lotta 90deg angles. Fluids (of which air is one) don't like moving smoothly around right angles. This might be making a proper purge of the system difficult, whether by cup or syringe. 2. They use a single timing port hole to allow fluid passage between the MC bore and the res. Might this create a choke point that is in turn causing a slight bit of cavitation during use? With the larger caliper pistons, there's more fluid moving to n fro. Can that timing port allow it to move smoothly in all brake actuation scenarios? This of course leads to the compression and banjo fittings. Are their diameters large enough to allow for smooth fluid movement in all actuation scenarios?
In all my messing with them, I’m pretty much convinced that the inconsistency comes from the caliper.My personal theory is that something about the caliper causes...
In all my messing with them, I’m pretty much convinced that the inconsistency comes from the caliper.
My personal theory is that something about the caliper causes the pads to roll back too slowly. It’s either the seal material is too soft, or there’s some sort of flow restriction. If you pull the lever multiple times quickly, you’re pulling the lever again before the pistons have retracted and that’s why they pump up.
I’ve been considering a couple of possible fixes to test:
1. Try to align the holes in the banjo bolt with the hole in the fitting for the hose. (This could explain why some people have zero issues with them, they just get lucky and all the holes line up nicely)
2. Try deburring, chamfering, or making the banjo bolt holes larger.
3. Try deburring or “porting” the transfer ports between the caliper halves. I’ve had to split the caliper a couple of times because I got a little impatient with my umpteenth piston massage and noticed that the ports looked kinda messy on the edges.
Dig the idea of the banjo bolt. I haven't seen one for the Mavens yet, however I have improved performance on other brakes by cross drilling and dilating the ports. There's not a lot of material there to work with, so a smidge bigger is better than way bigger. Def worth a shot since banjo bolts are relatively cheap and inexpensive.
Tried the pinner cups/overnight bleed/dangling caliper with bleed blocks in on 3 sets of mavens and the improvement is dramatic. At this point I'm fairly convinced that the mineral oil formula that SRAM is using holds onto air a bit more than some other formulas (like magura/shimano), and that degassing the mineral oil is a very important step.
Also, the more aggressive the piston massage the better. I've also noticed that I need to do it a 3-4 times for things to really improve, and I repeat the process until the pistons move evenly and very freely (both coming out and being pushed back by a spacer). The manual does say give'r the beans on the piston massage and I really think they mean it.
Update on some Maven bleeding:Tried the pinner cups/overnight bleed/dangling caliper with bleed blocks in on 3 sets of mavens and the improvement is dramatic. At this...
Update on some Maven bleeding:
Tried the pinner cups/overnight bleed/dangling caliper with bleed blocks in on 3 sets of mavens and the improvement is dramatic. At this point I'm fairly convinced that the mineral oil formula that SRAM is using holds onto air a bit more than some other formulas (like magura/shimano), and that degassing the mineral oil is a very important step.
Also, the more aggressive the piston massage the better. I've also noticed that I need to do it a 3-4 times for things to really improve, and I repeat the process until the pistons move evenly and very freely (both coming out and being pushed back by a spacer). The manual does say give'r the beans on the piston massage and I really think they mean it.
Nice! That's awesome to hear. Thanks for reporting back.
I watch the pistons advance when I'm massaging and if one is fast I'll hold it back with a flat head screwdriver until the others catch up or if it's slow work that single piston a few times. When new this is more noticeable.
Also when new I massage them many times, without focusing too much on force every cycle but just to get them moving in and out. I'm convinced there's some break in period on the seals.
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR...
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft...
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft has been machined larger than stock to eliminate pad rattle”
I was wondering about that! Any reason I couldn’t just use shrink wrap?
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR...
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft...
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft has been machined larger than stock to eliminate pad rattle”
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft...
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft has been machined larger than stock to eliminate pad rattle”
Anyone in the US have any luck on getting a set of the new Hopes now that they’re out?
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as a forum bonus 😃 (E4 on trail bike, also have V4 still to mount on the big bike…).
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as...
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as a forum bonus 😃 (E4 on trail bike, also have V4 still to mount on the big bike…).
My number one complaint with the T4V4’s was a soft bite point.
Have they firmed up the bite point with the new lever?
My number one complaint with the T4V4’s was a soft bite point.
Have they firmed up the bite point with the new lever?
it doesn’t feel vastly different to the previous Tech 4. The main difference is that the new cam design shortens the free stroke quite a bit, which for me makes the brake feel more direct when you activate it. It’s SUPER easy to feel what it’s doing and when the power comes on. I had to change where I run my levers in the starting position because they bite and ramp up sooner. That overall softness you speak of is still there once you get into the power band more, but I’d say their claim of 6-7% increased power holds true. Also the new lever shape with the smooth hook is an improvement in my opinion. I have yet to test the different lever blade options (power and control), so far only been running the standard.
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as...
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as a forum bonus 😃 (E4 on trail bike, also have V4 still to mount on the big bike…).
Biggest question is, do they still squeal all the time or with a stiffer caliper it’s gone?
I've seemed to have good luck with it. Are you referring to using a syringe for ONLY a lever bleed?
yeah, I've tried using some Pinner bleed cups and do the lever bleeds like I've done with shimano brakes and it did not go well. I feel like I've only had success with full bleeds. Wanted to see if folks are having some success with lever bleed with syringes and how they are doing it.
I added the zip tie lever trick to my Maven bleed process with good effect. In doing that I'm only bleeding the lever with the syringe by pulling a slight vacuum/flicking the lever, pressuring the system then closing it off. Hopefuly that helps.
I've been using the Pinner cup and SRAM adapter on my Mavens, and using the overnight zip tie lever trick has helped a lot. But I also appreciated the suggestion above to do a car brake bleed. I might try that next time I have to do a full bleed. Mavens are really hard to get all the air bubbles out of.
i found the 2 syringes Push only or very light vacuum + working those pistons in and out many times work pretty great, there's so much air always trapped behind the pistons, also i bled a couple with the Bionol and found it way easier to bleed compared to the maxima oil that seems to love air and keeping it
Are you putting in bleed blocks and winding the contact point out (away from the arrow) or just leaving it as is and slapping on the pinner cups.
I am so frustrated with my Mavens, they seem impossible to get consistent.
I got one good bleed on them and then the bike sat for a few months over winter while I moved and it went to shit. Every other bleed/piston massage seems to only stave off the pump-up bite point for less than half a day of riding. I’ve even had two different shops work on them in addition to myself.
I really want them to work right because everything else is great but if Hope’s new GR4s have firmed up the bite point then I think I’m getting rid of the Mavens.
If anyone has suggestions other than “must be a bad bleed” or “try massaging the pistons”, I’m all ears.
Both, depending on the day and how much effort I'm willing to put in.
If I'm really feeling like a go getter, I put the bike in a stand with both wheels off, tilted waaaaaaaay up with the rear axle near the ground, unbolt the rear caliper, and hang it from the frame (with a bleed block) so it's all uphill from the bottom of the caliper to the bleed port in the lever. God I hate internal hose routing. Then I leave the lever zip-tied overnight and bleed in the morning, combined with multiple rounds of piston massages. These bleeds tend to help a lot.
But I've also done quick and dirty lever bleeds where I just stick a pad spacer in between the pads and leave the caliper in place on the frame. These (predictably) tend to be less fruitful.
To the point of hating internal hose routing, anyone have a recommendation for the best available stick on cable guides?
Y'all got me wondering about the Mavens and down a rabbit hole I went. Couple things stood out to me in the MC's architecture. 1. The diaphragm for the reservoir has a lotta 90deg angles. Fluids (of which air is one) don't like moving smoothly around right angles. This might be making a proper purge of the system difficult, whether by cup or syringe. 2. They use a single timing port hole to allow fluid passage between the MC bore and the res. Might this create a choke point that is in turn causing a slight bit of cavitation during use? With the larger caliper pistons, there's more fluid moving to n fro. Can that timing port allow it to move smoothly in all brake actuation scenarios? This of course leads to the compression and banjo fittings. Are their diameters large enough to allow for smooth fluid movement in all actuation scenarios?
I’ve had good luck in the past with the Jagwire ones. They will bend to nearly flat without much issue if you need them to.
In all my messing with them, I’m pretty much convinced that the inconsistency comes from the caliper.
My personal theory is that something about the caliper causes the pads to roll back too slowly. It’s either the seal material is too soft, or there’s some sort of flow restriction. If you pull the lever multiple times quickly, you’re pulling the lever again before the pistons have retracted and that’s why they pump up.
I’ve been considering a couple of possible fixes to test:
1. Try to align the holes in the banjo bolt with the hole in the fitting for the hose. (This could explain why some people have zero issues with them, they just get lucky and all the holes line up nicely)
2. Try deburring, chamfering, or making the banjo bolt holes larger.
3. Try deburring or “porting” the transfer ports between the caliper halves. I’ve had to split the caliper a couple of times because I got a little impatient with my umpteenth piston massage and noticed that the ports looked kinda messy on the edges.
Anyone have issues with their Hope V4 pads rattling front-to-back in the caliper? The pads in my E4 calipers seem perfectly sized (T4 E4 and XCR E4), but there's some free play with the pads in the V4 allowing them to rock or rattle. I'm struggling to think of a solution besides a strip of mastic tape on either end of the caliper (which I think would melt?)
Yes, and these better bolts after market pins retaining pins eliminated it for me. From their website: “For Hope V4 brake pad axles the center shaft has been machined larger than stock to eliminate pad rattle”
I used small strips of hockey tape on the edge/back of the pads and they seemed to work well, but I don't push my brakes to super high temperatures. You can also try to open the retaining springs absurdly wide.
Dig the idea of the banjo bolt. I haven't seen one for the Mavens yet, however I have improved performance on other brakes by cross drilling and dilating the ports. There's not a lot of material there to work with, so a smidge bigger is better than way bigger. Def worth a shot since banjo bolts are relatively cheap and inexpensive.
Update on some Maven bleeding:
Tried the pinner cups/overnight bleed/dangling caliper with bleed blocks in on 3 sets of mavens and the improvement is dramatic. At this point I'm fairly convinced that the mineral oil formula that SRAM is using holds onto air a bit more than some other formulas (like magura/shimano), and that degassing the mineral oil is a very important step.
Also, the more aggressive the piston massage the better. I've also noticed that I need to do it a 3-4 times for things to really improve, and I repeat the process until the pistons move evenly and very freely (both coming out and being pushed back by a spacer). The manual does say give'r the beans on the piston massage and I really think they mean it.
Nice! That's awesome to hear. Thanks for reporting back.
I was wondering about that! Any reason I couldn’t just use shrink wrap?
Genius! I shrink wrap the shit out of everything I can, but this application didn't cross my mind.
I’ll give it a go and let you guys know the results!!
Anyone in the US have any luck on getting a set of the new Hopes now that they’re out?
I have some that I’ve been testing for a few weeks now. Review will drop in due time, but I can answer some questions here as a forum bonus 😃 (E4 on trail bike, also have V4 still to mount on the big bike…).
My number one complaint with the T4V4’s was a soft bite point.
Have they firmed up the bite point with the new lever?
it doesn’t feel vastly different to the previous Tech 4. The main difference is that the new cam design shortens the free stroke quite a bit, which for me makes the brake feel more direct when you activate it. It’s SUPER easy to feel what it’s doing and when the power comes on. I had to change where I run my levers in the starting position because they bite and ramp up sooner. That overall softness you speak of is still there once you get into the power band more, but I’d say their claim of 6-7% increased power holds true. Also the new lever shape with the smooth hook is an improvement in my opinion. I have yet to test the different lever blade options (power and control), so far only been running the standard.
Biggest question is, do they still squeal all the time or with a stiffer caliper it’s gone?
If you’re talking about that signature little high-pitched squeal as the pads engage, yep, still there…
How is the bleed process in comparison to the old process? Does the new bleed port help?
You feel like power is about the same?
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment