Id be interested to hear what Fluid focus is doing to reduce ramp. I tried the TruTune and it does help reduce some ramp but I’m...
Id be interested to hear what Fluid focus is doing to reduce ramp.
I tried the TruTune and it does help reduce some ramp but I’m still struggling with the fork to feel good on a consistent basis.
I don't know that they do for sure.
I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do a service.
They did the work, checked bushings (super tight), and mentioned that the Zeb is super progressive and to shoot for no more than 20 percent sag and they left the clickers wide open for compression.
No tokens for me, that is for riding the subway (note to big token - that is a joke, be cool!).
I'm going to test using a Secus and kicking myself for not knowing about the Noken as a less expensive option vs Secus.
I have used an Everflow Tank with Zeb with good results in the past.
Now, that doesn't mean Fluid Focus doesn't have something, but it seems like they would have pitched it/mentioned it to me when they had my fork (and I would have listened for sure).
I'm not a super massive rider (190 pounds aka 86 kg) for what it is worth riding in central Arizona so chunky and endlessly varied terrain but no big hucks or wackiness like that.
I don't know that they do for sure.I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do...
I don't know that they do for sure.
I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do a service.
They did the work, checked bushings (super tight), and mentioned that the Zeb is super progressive and to shoot for no more than 20 percent sag and they left the clickers wide open for compression.
No tokens for me, that is for riding the subway (note to big token - that is a joke, be cool!).
I'm going to test using a Secus and kicking myself for not knowing about the Noken as a less expensive option vs Secus.
I have used an Everflow Tank with Zeb with good results in the past.
Now, that doesn't mean Fluid Focus doesn't have something, but it seems like they would have pitched it/mentioned it to me when they had my fork (and I would have listened for sure).
I'm not a super massive rider (190 pounds aka 86 kg) for what it is worth riding in central Arizona so chunky and endlessly varied terrain but no big hucks or wackiness like that.
The thing with the secus is that is going to make the negative chamber even bigger to make the fork softer initially. This will mean you need more air pressure to get sag and then it will ramp even more. Personally I’m trying to get the opposite, smaller negative and less pressure.
I don't know that they do for sure.I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do...
I don't know that they do for sure.
I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do a service.
They did the work, checked bushings (super tight), and mentioned that the Zeb is super progressive and to shoot for no more than 20 percent sag and they left the clickers wide open for compression.
No tokens for me, that is for riding the subway (note to big token - that is a joke, be cool!).
I'm going to test using a Secus and kicking myself for not knowing about the Noken as a less expensive option vs Secus.
I have used an Everflow Tank with Zeb with good results in the past.
Now, that doesn't mean Fluid Focus doesn't have something, but it seems like they would have pitched it/mentioned it to me when they had my fork (and I would have listened for sure).
I'm not a super massive rider (190 pounds aka 86 kg) for what it is worth riding in central Arizona so chunky and endlessly varied terrain but no big hucks or wackiness like that.
Let me clarify, my "live that linear life" was a bit tongue and cheek. I crack myself up sometimes.
I'm also in no way associated with them or can speak to suspension tuning with a super high degree of technical knowledge. I've had great customer experience with them and I'm super happy with the improvement their work did to my Zeb, and Vivid. I've been riding for 20 years, I've picked up a few things but I also know my limitations. I'll use their words to explain the work:
"The Charger 3.1 piston is still digressive(unfortunately) but I made it as linear as possible(like our Charger 3 piston) using shims. Then ran our Charger 3 tune for the mid valve compression and rebound. With the fork on the bike you might not notice a change in compression just pushing on it in a parking lot, but IT IS changing, I did verify it on the dyno."
Beyond that I'd let them speak to specifics. I don't want to oversell what they did but back to back with an untuned fork the difference in ramp/linear feel is exceptionally noticeable.
The thing with the secus is that is going to make the negative chamber even bigger to make the fork softer initially. This will mean you...
The thing with the secus is that is going to make the negative chamber even bigger to make the fork softer initially. This will mean you need more air pressure to get sag and then it will ramp even more. Personally I’m trying to get the opposite, smaller negative and less pressure.
Smaller negative alone doesnt do much positive (ehm), it makes already less than great small bump sensitivity even worse. Also it's not only the size of the chamber that matter but how pressurized it is. Small chamber that is pressurized well will be smoother and more sensitive than big negative chamber sitting on the top out bumper because the EQ port is too low relative to the piston. Thankfully nothing stops you from filling part of the negative chamber with grease, safe, effective and easily measured method that comes with added benefit of more lubrication...
Question to the panel: in your experience, does a 38 have as much built-in progression as a Zeb with the same amount of travel?
The cartridge design of the 38 air spring is intended exactly to allow increasing both the negative and positive chambers so yes, that makes it significantly less progressive.
I don't think there's much difference in the lower leg ramp, if any at all. While the 38 uses the volume between the inner cylinder and the stanchion as part of the leg volume, the seal head is very shallow, while the Zeb has a tall spacer. As long as it doesn't have the buttercup of course 😉
A simple point regarding the 38 in my experience - I find most of my customers prefer them with no spacers, even at 170 or 160mm travel. Thats at close to the recommended air pressure and they often still have travel in reserve.
A lot of 160mm bikes ship with 3 spacers in the 38 for some weird reason and most people really struggle to make it feel good. I try only removing 1 spacer but most of the time removing all 3 makes a huge improvement. Of course a lot of aggressive riders still benefit from 1 or 2 in there but its not essential, whereas something like the old C1 debonair air springs often got 3 or 4 tokens at 160mm travel
TLDR: I loved them both, and they do a great job addressing exactly what we've been discussing in this thread. On one of my first rides on the Flux Cap I bottomed out my 180mm Zeb for the first time in years.
TLDR: I loved them both, and they do a great job addressing exactly what we've been discussing in this thread. On one of my first rides on the Flux Cap I bottomed out my 180mm Zeb for the first time in years.
After installing when testing, did you change any settings other than PSI? HSC/rebound/etc. And if yes, how much and in what direction?
After installing when testing, did you change any settings other than PSI? HSC/rebound/etc. And if yes, how much and in what direction?
Great question. A couple rides in I think I opened up LSC a click or two to see if it helped (to compensate for a firrmer top of travel), then forgot about it until now. I also added a click of HSC (to compensate for a softer bottom 1/3 of travel) but then went back to my baseline setting. So yes, I think you can change settings a little, but I think the change in air spring is the biggest effect and doesn't really impact suspension feel at the top of the travel.
I also pretty much never use HSC to tune bottom out resistance, unless I'm literally at a DH race. I think HSC tends to add so much harshness that I don't add HSC unless I need my suspension to feel rock hard through violent terrain at violent speeds.
Great question. A couple rides in I think I opened up LSC a click or two to see if it helped (to compensate for a firrmer...
Great question. A couple rides in I think I opened up LSC a click or two to see if it helped (to compensate for a firrmer top of travel), then forgot about it until now. I also added a click of HSC (to compensate for a softer bottom 1/3 of travel) but then went back to my baseline setting. So yes, I think you can change settings a little, but I think the change in air spring is the biggest effect and doesn't really impact suspension feel at the top of the travel.
I also pretty much never use HSC to tune bottom out resistance, unless I'm literally at a DH race. I think HSC tends to add so much harshness that I don't add HSC unless I need my suspension to feel rock hard through violent terrain at violent speeds.
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt...
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my weight, with regular lower leg services. I've always liked more closed off LSC to create support during big body movements and more open HSC to keep the fork open for small bump/high frequency chatter, so it might just be a personal preference thing. Also worth mentioning that I run very, very fast rebound, so that could also change preferences compared with someone that rides a slower setup.
I have a few rides on the Noken and it slightly helps the ramp up. I agree with the review that it helps but doesn't really solve the progressive nature of the fork. If you have $70 to spare and not in harms way of your frame, it's worth using.
I'm still hunting around for the correct air pressure on the Zeb, but currently around 88psi on full size ebike and 175lb rider.
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt...
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my...
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my weight, with regular lower leg services. I've always liked more closed off LSC to create support during big body movements and more open HSC to keep the fork open for small bump/high frequency chatter, so it might just be a personal preference thing. Also worth mentioning that I run very, very fast rebound, so that could also change preferences compared with someone that rides a slower setup.
Sick. Feels normal and unremarkable in most places, similar to the stock damper, but it really comes alive in the worst, chunkiest terrain. Review coming soon-ish.
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt...
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
Yeah I’ve found a softer spring rate with fast rebound and lots of HSC is wonderful on grip2 38 and on my ohlins forks
Be interesting to compare either the Noken or the Flux Cap to Trutune insert.. From what I can find the Trutune is equivalent to 2-3 tokens...
Be interesting to compare either the Noken or the Flux Cap to Trutune insert.. From what I can find the Trutune is equivalent to 2-3 tokens removed..
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end ramp change but with TruTune it didn’t feel consistent, not sure if that it’s my head? But over time if felt different, not sure if the device soaks up moisture/oil/grease or becomes less effective?
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end...
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end ramp change but with TruTune it didn’t feel consistent, not sure if that it’s my head? But over time if felt different, not sure if the device soaks up moisture/oil/grease or becomes less effective?
Trutone recommends replacing their inserts every 100 miles, so my understanding is that yes their performance does degrade over time.
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end...
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end ramp change but with TruTune it didn’t feel consistent, not sure if that it’s my head? But over time if felt different, not sure if the device soaks up moisture/oil/grease or becomes less effective?
Trutone recommends replacing their inserts every 100 miles, so my understanding is that yes their performance does degrade over time.
Ohhhh interesting! I never read that, but that’s crazy. Makes sense because I’ve had it for over a year now so maybe it’s like adding spacers at this point?
Interesting - where did you hear that? According to their FAQ they last "So far, our inserts have individually spent hundreds of riding hours in forks...
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't find any additional information, but 100 hours is cited all over the internet as the replacement interval. Thanks for sharing the source on that info, because apparently that isn't the replacement interval, isn't a bad copy/paste job from Trutune's website. "We've tested for hundreds of hours" is very different than "We recommend replacing every 100 hours."
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt...
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my...
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my weight, with regular lower leg services. I've always liked more closed off LSC to create support during big body movements and more open HSC to keep the fork open for small bump/high frequency chatter, so it might just be a personal preference thing. Also worth mentioning that I run very, very fast rebound, so that could also change preferences compared with someone that rides a slower setup.
Ah, that's probably why your setup feels harsh with much HSC: the very very fast rebound.
His front tire is probably bouncing off the ground, which makes the ride harsh. Dialing out more compression compensates for the harshness of the super fast rebound.
Interesting - where did you hear that? According to their FAQ they last "So far, our inserts have individually spent hundreds of riding hours in forks...
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't...
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't find any additional information, but 100 hours is cited all over the internet as the replacement interval. Thanks for sharing the source on that info, because apparently that isn't the replacement interval, isn't a bad copy/paste job from Trutune's website. "We've tested for hundreds of hours" is very different than "We recommend replacing every 100 hours."
The same technology is used in car suspension air spring applications so I would be surprised if a replacement was needed every 100 miles (WTF!!!) or every 100 hours (wtf!). $100 investment every 100 miles or 100 hours does not sound like a viable business plan to me.
Interesting - where did you hear that? According to their FAQ they last "So far, our inserts have individually spent hundreds of riding hours in forks...
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't...
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't find any additional information, but 100 hours is cited all over the internet as the replacement interval. Thanks for sharing the source on that info, because apparently that isn't the replacement interval, isn't a bad copy/paste job from Trutune's website. "We've tested for hundreds of hours" is very different than "We recommend replacing every 100 hours."
Wonder if that confusion shouldn't be laid squarely at the feet of Google's AI.
I'd be surprised if they'd been bought by Formula, as they don't seem to fully understand the bike industry. For example, they label both axis on many of their graphs.
If ramp up is the concern buy either and send it to Fluid Focus. All problems solved, live that linear life.
What's their solution like?
Id be interested to hear what Fluid focus is doing to reduce ramp.
I tried the TruTune and it does help reduce some ramp but I’m still struggling with the fork to feel good on a consistent basis.
I don't know that they do for sure.
I recently sent a Zeb in to them to install their Charger 3 piston and shim kit and do a service.
They did the work, checked bushings (super tight), and mentioned that the Zeb is super progressive and to shoot for no more than 20 percent sag and they left the clickers wide open for compression.
No tokens for me, that is for riding the subway (note to big token - that is a joke, be cool!).
I'm going to test using a Secus and kicking myself for not knowing about the Noken as a less expensive option vs Secus.
I have used an Everflow Tank with Zeb with good results in the past.
Now, that doesn't mean Fluid Focus doesn't have something, but it seems like they would have pitched it/mentioned it to me when they had my fork (and I would have listened for sure).
I'm not a super massive rider (190 pounds aka 86 kg) for what it is worth riding in central Arizona so chunky and endlessly varied terrain but no big hucks or wackiness like that.
The thing with the secus is that is going to make the negative chamber even bigger to make the fork softer initially. This will mean you need more air pressure to get sag and then it will ramp even more. Personally I’m trying to get the opposite, smaller negative and less pressure.
Let me clarify, my "live that linear life" was a bit tongue and cheek. I crack myself up sometimes.
Smaller negative alone doesnt do much positive (ehm), it makes already less than great small bump sensitivity even worse. Also it's not only the size of the chamber that matter but how pressurized it is. Small chamber that is pressurized well will be smoother and more sensitive than big negative chamber sitting on the top out bumper because the EQ port is too low relative to the piston. Thankfully nothing stops you from filling part of the negative chamber with grease, safe, effective and easily measured method that comes with added benefit of more lubrication...
The cartridge design of the 38 air spring is intended exactly to allow increasing both the negative and positive chambers so yes, that makes it significantly less progressive.
I don't think there's much difference in the lower leg ramp, if any at all. While the 38 uses the volume between the inner cylinder and the stanchion as part of the leg volume, the seal head is very shallow, while the Zeb has a tall spacer. As long as it doesn't have the buttercup of course 😉
A simple point regarding the 38 in my experience - I find most of my customers prefer them with no spacers, even at 170 or 160mm travel. Thats at close to the recommended air pressure and they often still have travel in reserve.
A lot of 160mm bikes ship with 3 spacers in the 38 for some weird reason and most people really struggle to make it feel good. I try only removing 1 spacer but most of the time removing all 3 makes a huge improvement. Of course a lot of aggressive riders still benefit from 1 or 2 in there but its not essential, whereas something like the old C1 debonair air springs often got 3 or 4 tokens at 160mm travel
Finally posted my thoughts after a long-term test of the MRP Noken and a new guy to market, the Ratio Components Flux Cap: https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/great-minds-think-alike-ratio-components-flux-cap-vs-mrp-noken-review
TLDR: I loved them both, and they do a great job addressing exactly what we've been discussing in this thread. On one of my first rides on the Flux Cap I bottomed out my 180mm Zeb for the first time in years.
There is already an established brand called Ratio, seems an odd choice of name https://ratiotechnology.com/?v=7885444af42e
Good to see these products hit the market though, great minds think alike...
After installing when testing, did you change any settings other than PSI? HSC/rebound/etc. And if yes, how much and in what direction?
Great question. A couple rides in I think I opened up LSC a click or two to see if it helped (to compensate for a firrmer top of travel), then forgot about it until now. I also added a click of HSC (to compensate for a softer bottom 1/3 of travel) but then went back to my baseline setting. So yes, I think you can change settings a little, but I think the change in air spring is the biggest effect and doesn't really impact suspension feel at the top of the travel.
I also pretty much never use HSC to tune bottom out resistance, unless I'm literally at a DH race. I think HSC tends to add so much harshness that I don't add HSC unless I need my suspension to feel rock hard through violent terrain at violent speeds.
What fork damper are you running? I've found myself maxing out most off the shelf HSC circuits over the past few years, and it hasn't felt harsh, but very controlled when going violent speeds through violent terrain.
The only fork I haven't maxed out compression damping is the Push NineOne.
Side note, in order for a lot of compression damping to work well, it requires very frequent lower services on traditional upright forks. Otherwise, yes, it rides like garbage.
During testing for the Flux Cap and Noken, I was running an A1 Zeb Charger 2.1 damper and then an MRP Lift Damper tuned for my weight, with regular lower leg services. I've always liked more closed off LSC to create support during big body movements and more open HSC to keep the fork open for small bump/high frequency chatter, so it might just be a personal preference thing. Also worth mentioning that I run very, very fast rebound, so that could also change preferences compared with someone that rides a slower setup.
I have a few rides on the Noken and it slightly helps the ramp up. I agree with the review that it helps but doesn't really solve the progressive nature of the fork. If you have $70 to spare and not in harms way of your frame, it's worth using.
I'm still hunting around for the correct air pressure on the Zeb, but currently around 88psi on full size ebike and 175lb rider.
How do you like the MRP damper in the Zeb so far?
Sick. Feels normal and unremarkable in most places, similar to the stock damper, but it really comes alive in the worst, chunkiest terrain. Review coming soon-ish.
Yeah I’ve found a softer spring rate with fast rebound and lots of HSC is wonderful on grip2 38 and on my ohlins forks
Be interesting to compare either the Noken or the Flux Cap to Trutune insert.. From what I can find the Trutune is equivalent to 2-3 tokens removed..
I used Trutune and Nikon (not at the same time). On paper it’s trying to do the same, with data acquisition I could see the end ramp change but with TruTune it didn’t feel consistent, not sure if that it’s my head? But over time if felt different, not sure if the device soaks up moisture/oil/grease or becomes less effective?
Trutone recommends replacing their inserts every 100 miles, so my understanding is that yes their performance does degrade over time.
Ohhhh interesting! I never read that, but that’s crazy. Makes sense because I’ve had it for over a year now so maybe it’s like adding spacers at this point?
Interesting - where did you hear that? According to their FAQ they last "So far, our inserts have individually spent hundreds of riding hours in forks without any noticeable changes to performance." ( https://trutune.co.uk/products/flow#:~:text=HOW%20LONG%20DOES%20THE%20I….)
Hearsay, apparently! I had a devil of a time finding the Trutune website (I thought they'd been purchased by Formula for some reason?), so I couldn't find any additional information, but 100 hours is cited all over the internet as the replacement interval. Thanks for sharing the source on that info, because apparently that isn't the replacement interval, isn't a bad copy/paste job from Trutune's website. "We've tested for hundreds of hours" is very different than "We recommend replacing every 100 hours."
Ah, that's probably why your setup feels harsh with much HSC: the very very fast rebound.
Please explain
His front tire is probably bouncing off the ground, which makes the ride harsh. Dialing out more compression compensates for the harshness of the super fast rebound.
The same technology is used in car suspension air spring applications so I would be surprised if a replacement was needed every 100 miles (WTF!!!) or every 100 hours (wtf!). $100 investment every 100 miles or 100 hours does not sound like a viable business plan to me.
Wonder if that confusion shouldn't be laid squarely at the feet of Google's AI.
I'd be surprised if they'd been bought by Formula, as they don't seem to fully understand the bike industry. For example, they label both axis on many of their graphs.
Post a reply to: Attn Fellow Suspension Nerds - 180mm Zeb won't get full travel?