Magura's New Race Pro Brakes - Get Your Questions Answered! - Forum Hot Seat

You mean the screw here on the upper right?

That’s a plugged bore that we need to create the caliper’s oil channel. After forging the one-piece caliper, a drill goes in there and connects both sides of the caliper. There’s no other way to manufacture it. You can also understand it with a look at the previously shared "oil channel"-cut-image.
After manufacturing, this screw is never removed again. It simply plugs the bore in the caliper.

Disclaimer: there may be a delay now in answering your questions as our German Team will be out of Office now. It’s night in Germany.  we will be back tomorrow.


 

One more question.  When I had MT7s and sticky pistons developed, I was given a new caliper under warranty (thanks!) since they were not user serviceable.  Do the Race Pros have user serviceable pistons via the outer bore covers with a service kit?

Hi Magura - I'm a trail bike rider, ride all over Northern California mostly. I have two young teenages who are getting into riding and have become the local bike shop out of my garage for friends and my kids friends. I'm familar with servicing and bleeding Shimano (xt mostly) and Sram (maven mostly), it's not that hard, but not as easy as it could be. 
I don't have experience with Magura, what are some high level reasons I should try magura? How are their servacibility? What is the recommendation for a 200lb Trail bike rider? Thanks

Hey guys, the Magura crew in Germany are home for the evening, they will rejoin the conversation, tomorrow (their) morning. 

Please keep the questions rolling in, they will be happy to answer them when they are back in the office.

Awesome to have them in chat. This is sick. All my questions getting answered! 

Do we get to ask you questions too??

Couple of questions for ya!

1. What is the overall system weight difference between the MT7's and the new Race Pro's? Sounds like the caliper is about the same weight with the lever being a bit heavier since it's now aluminum?
2. With a lot of the competitor brake levers having progressive/non-linear pull ratios, did Magura consider moving away from the radial design, or a design with a non-linear pull?

Hey... still one there, even if it's late... 😄

Hi, I'm Ingo, the CEO... welcome folks! Happy to answer your questions... 😉

Regarding your question about servicable caliper pistons: We only offer the piston of the lever as spare part, but not the pistons of the caliper. This has a simple reason: These are VERY tricky to install and without special machines (which we use in our production line) it is very easy to damage the sealings / quad rings during assembly. You know we do have a mono-block caliper, which means you have to install the quad rings and pistons only from one side and it is essential not to insert angled.

To say it short: The risk to damage something and thus get a risk of a non-working brake is too high.

Hey itsky, thanks for your questions!

We have to separate this topic into full-bleeding (e. g. after installing new caliper, hose or master) or just quick-bleeding in order to get the air bubbles out.

For quick bleeding, I would say (of course, I'm Magura, but trust me, I'm also an engineer 😉) that we have the easiest and quickest quick-bleed you can imagine. No special tools needed, just a standard 25 ml syringe you get anywhere with a hole at 25 ml mark (can drill by yourself, if needed). All our modern brakes use the international Luer Standard. And then just follow this 60 sec. video tutorial: MAGURA Fast Bleeding - 60 Seconds Brake Bleed

For full-bleeding (so you have parts with lots of air inside and you want to refill with fluid) you just have to push fluid from the caliper up to the master. Therefore our modern brakes have a valve at the caliper and use the same Luer Standard there (so you can use Standard syringes also).

So, don't be afraid, it is really easy to do and our GUSTAV or RACE brakes make it even easier with a circumferal channel through the caliper, which will catch all the tiny bubbles when you push the fluid through. It is really easy! Just give it a try.

You can find all tutorial videos here: MAGURA Manuals & Service documents

Regarding your questions: High level reasons... well... there are plenty, some key technologies we have are our one-piece calipers. Not two halves screwed together, but a rigid and stiff monoblock construction even down to the most affordable level. This results in plenty of brake force and no leakage. Another reason: 5 years of leak proof warranty because of that! Another is our Easy Link, a hydraulic quick coupling, which allows to easily route the hose through the frame or change headset bearings even on fully integrated cockpits within seconds. Last but not least, we test our products far above all requirements and offer up total weights up to 180 kg (sorry for not calculating in lbs 😄) for 2-piston brakes, and up to 225 kg (RACE, MT7/5, etc.) or even 250 kg (GUSTAV) for 4-piston brakes.

A recommendation for you depends on your bike, riding style, trail conditions, etc., so a bit hard to judge from afar 🙃

Thanks for your questions, bottoms-up-brian!

1. The MT7 and the RACE are both in our "Heavy Duty" class, meaning the total weight can go up to 225 kg. But the caliper of the RACE is a completely new construction, way stiffer (even stiffer than GUSTAV!) but we machined every gram of Aluminum away, so the caliper weighs the same as the MT7. But, yes, you're right.. the disadvantage of an Aluminum master is the heavier weight 😉 With our Carbotecture material we can build even lighter and more compact. That's why BMW is using our Carbotecture material for their motorcycle masters, too (made in Germany). But: We also tried our best to make the master as light as possible, that's why we end up with little more than just 300g per brake, which is in the field of light XC brakes, too.
2. This, my friend, is a general question and this has something to do with our DNA, with our philosophy and with our uniqueness. We strongly believe - and physics don't lie - that a constant leverage ratio gives the most predictable lever feel. No matter where you are in your lever stroke, the more you pull, the more you brake... linear, clear, intuitive. As soon as you use a kind of curvature, you change the leverage ratio depending on the position of the lever. When a brake gets hot (and every brake does) the fluid expands (physics) and while you're braking the bite point will move a little back and forth. With our brake it doesn't matter where you are with the lever. Besides this: Best things are kept simple. Less pivots, less moving parts, less trouble. And: Less friction 😉 this you will feel immediately when you touch our levers the first time. And less force needed to actuate the lever means less fatigue in your arms on long decends. Would you agree?

Why did you guys not designed the calipers around the 2,5mm rotors like on the Gustav?

You can keep on asking, I'm still a bit here. 😉

I'm Ingo, CEO of MAGURA, and jumping in here for a few more hours as my colleagues have their off time.

Happy to answer your question... love this "Hot Seat" format here... 🤩

Thanks a good question, which is often asked...

Well, we separate our brakes into three categories: Light duty (2 piston), Heavy duty (4 piston) and Extreme duty (4 piston).

The difference between Heavy and Extreme are mostly heat capacity and wear limit. That's why GUSTAV uses thick pads, thick rotors (2.5 mm), which both give a longer duration until you have to buy new ones AND the massive caliper - together with the thick rotor - offer an immense heat resistance. Simply said: You will never get ANY kind of fading on this brake even under heaviest load.

Of course, this results in a higher weight - simple physics: More metal = more heat capacity = more weight

The RACE has a different use case: Here you want to have it ligher, higher-end, tuned to the max, race-ready. "Every gram counts" a little. Of course, still the RACE has tremendous performance (the caliper is even stiffer than GUSTAVs) and for sure also good heat resistance and so on, but - like said - on a lighter, more performance level.

The easiest to understand (and by this, sorry to use a German car brand 😄)... GUSTAV is our Porsche Cayenne Turbo, RACE is our Porsche 911 GT3 RS

oh, rest assured same as me, many people have carried out the official testing with countless shimano levers, in the real world, for many many years; ).

Thanks for the AMA. This is great. Sorry if the question was already addressed, are rebuild kits going to be available ? is it possible to do this on the caliper and lever side ?

@MAGURA  I love the MT5s on my bike, but my MT7s on the other bike had been hard to get rub-free. The new Magura rotors I have bought were impossible to true to make them rub-free (trust me, I have tried and never had that badly warped rotors), so I resolved by getting 2.3mm rotors and it's been much better. I saw you said that the Louise calipers have improved pad retraction compared to the MT7s. Could I replace the MT7 calipers by the Louise and keep everything else the same? I love the brakes, but the rubbing is very hard to get right. 

Also, pads rattle in the MT7 calipers, but I have never noticed it on the MT5. I am using the 4-piece Race brake pads, do you ahve any ideas on how to quiet down the rattling ? Are the Louise better in this regard too ? 

Cheers and thanks for being here to answer questions!

Yes, we offer rebuild kits for the master piston and the lever bearing. And the oil reservoir cap and bleeding valve and clamps will be available as single parts.
Here are the how-to videos: RACE PRO Support - MAGURA Bicycle Brakes & Spare Parts

But we don´t offer pistons or seals for the caliper. This has a simple reason: These are VERY tricky to install and without special machines (which we use in our production line) it is very easy to damage the sealings / quad rings during assembly. You know we do have a mono-block caliper, which means you have to install the quad rings and pistons only from one side and it is essential not to insert angled. To say it short: The risk to damage something and thus get a risk of a non-working brake is too high.
But our field and lab tests also show that we see wear on the caliper less often than on the master.

Hi, thanks for your questions and for the kind words!

We can’t recommend pairing LOUISE or MT5 parts with the MT7. The hydraulic ratios and designs are slightly different, which would change the lever feel.

Of course, the best option would be upgrading to the RACE PRO 😎 But I totally understand that you already have two pretty cool brakes sitting in the basement! Here are some ideas:

Alignment:
For your current setup, I’d recommend the Piston Alignment Tool I mentioned earlier. At just $7, it’s a real little secret weapon for setting up the caliper. Unlike conventional caliper alignment tools, it centers the caliper on the rotor, rather than aligning the pads to the rotor. The tool only contacts the caliper itself. This ensures that all pistons are aligned symmetrically, giving you the perfect starting point for a rub-free caliper setup.

You can find the How-To video and more info at the bottom of this page. Piston alignment tool - MAGURA Bicycle Brakes & Spare Parts
The tool is also available from magurausa-shop.com and other retailers.

Pad rattle:
A certain amount of pad play is necessary because the pads expand when they heat up. They need some room to expand so they don’t get stuck or tilt in the caliper — this is common across brake systems.

Of course, we’re always working to keep unwanted noise to a minimum. It’s honestly pretty awesome how quiet modern bikes and motors have become! 

One option are our SHIM brake pads, which feature an insulating layer between the backing plate and the piston. This also increases friction between the pad and piston, significantly reducing pad rattle. MDP 8+ - MAGURA Bicycle Brakes & Spare Parts

Hi MAGURA,

I don’t currently own any of your brakes (but in the past have owned HS-22s, MT5 and MT7s,) but just wanted to chime in and let you know that your interaction is amazing and downright shocking to have the CEO jump in to answer questions.

This is a very compelling brake system and honestly takes care of all the issues I’ve had in the past- it will certainly be near the top of the list when it comes time for a new set.

Any chance you would ever go back to the self aligning old system (it’s been a while but I believe the caliper was tightened onto a low friction washer that allowed it to move) or have tolerances gotten better and it’s no longer needed? 

Awesome, thanks for the answer, it is really appreciated! I will definately buy a few sets of the SHIM brake pads since it’s the only thing bugging me on those otherwise awesome brakes. Cheers!

thanks for your kind words

Do you mean this cone washers? 

These types of cone washers could partly compensate for unfavorable tolerances in the fork or the frame`s Post Mount interfaces. But you’re absolutely right that the manufacturing quality of forks and frames has improved a lot over the years. With properly machined, flat Post Mount surfaces, these cone washers they are not that necessary anymore.

In general, it’s important that the Post Mount surfaces are flat and properly aligned. Otherwise, they can affect the brake feel or cause noise and vibrations. There are also some pretty serious tools available for resurfacing Post Mounts if needed.

I have been a Magura user for quite some time and got a few problems with my MT7s over the years. Two master cylinders were leaking Royal blood (which I guess might be related to impact resitance as I had a few small crashes here and there, oopsie). Second problem: I can't get the caliper pistons to expand and contract equally. One side is always farther out.

Is the new aluminium construction better for MC leaks or was my issue not something you observed that many time with MT7? How do we get pads to move equally from one-side to another and is this a MT7 problem that is now fixed, or a universal issue with dirt getting in and preventing some pistons to move freely?

By the way, the new brakes look amazing. good job

Hi VTTYeahYouKnowMe! (Naughty by Nature fan? 😉)

Ingo here again... think what you meant with "self aligning old system" and "low friction washer" was our very first disc brake GUSTAV M., right? There the caliper was able to move freely on two axial bushings at the adapter making it a "floating system":

This system was amazing in terms of bite point, because there was nearly no retraction at all and the pads continuously touched the rotor and engaged instantly once the lever was pulled. Also there were only two (!) pistons in actuating only from the left side. The GUSTAV M. was the legendary "Swabian Anchor", which has established Magura's reputation to this day

Of course you can already guess the disadvantage: Noises! That's the reason we moved long ago to a "classic system" with pistons on both sides and for us there is no way back to this due to that reasons.

Hi ggccvv!

Oh, well, than it seems there is maybe something wrong with the quad-ring sealings in the caliper...? We offer a 5 years leak proof warranty because we believe in our products being the best in the world. 🤩 Of course, there can be circumstances (crashes, oopsie), which can lead after a while to leakage because of severe damage. That happens to everyone of us while after while...

When you also say that the pistons do not expand out equally, this underlines the theory of having an issue with the quad-ring sealings. Of course you can let your brake get a full service or - even better, because you never know what might have been damaged more - exchange it with a spare caliper and have the brake fresh like the first day!

Our new construction of the GUSTAV and RACE families is of course even more bullet-proof than the MT7, but - depending on the severity of the impact - you can also get a damage here (well, that's physics). But it should be pretty tough due to bigger tolerances.

In terms of piston moving, I would suggest using our Piston Alignment Tools shown above to generate a perfect starting condition having all pistons activated and running synchronized/symmetrical. If still unsure, get your Magura to a Magura related dealer. There you will get best support!

Who’s down with VTT? Every last Frenchie!

Yes, those were exactly what I was remembering- but I had forgotten about the fixed pad side. Makes perfect sense to move away from that with dual sided pistons. Thanks again for the interactions!

Great thread and AMA. Everything answer has addressed a lot of issues I had with my old MT5's. Looks like really meanginful improvements to improve the bleed process/results, lighter lever feel, and more forgiving pad clerance and less rub.

Nice work!

The first post here says that Race Pro's have "easier lever flip-flop". But in the photos the reservoir looks permanently fixed to the master cylinder, perhaps even machined from the same block of aluminum. What's the story here?

Also, is there an engineering reason behind the move from having the reservoir in-line with the master cylinder to the 90* orientation?

Thanks in advance! And thanks for not making the brakes weigh substantially more than their predecessors as seems common recently!

Jumping in to help as hopefully the Germany team is home and sleeping ahead of their weekend.

Correct, our master cylinders are side specific. Our EasyLink line connections allow for easy swap of the lines if you move from F/L-R/R to F/R-R/L. Basically you push the pads back, slide the rubber boot back, remove the easy link clip on both brakes, remove the lines, reinstall the clip, swap the lines, and click in the brake lines. Then reinstall the rubber boot. In almost every case I have done this, no bleed was needed. If a bleed was needed, it was our quick lever bleed. 

Keeping weight down was very important to this brake project. Performance, power, feel, and weight were all paramount in bringing this brake to market. We will be getting a set of brakes to Vital shortly for them to do some testing and share their experience on how these perform.

HC3 style levers would be great.