Maybe the nerds can compile a long travel emtb weight list of all the avinox and bosch bikes as a competition? First with the list can claim "best motor traction" for a one year period
The M2S is a little bit better than a Bosch on virtually every aspect: weight, size, noise, efficiency, software, overall package (screen, controllers, lights), price of...
The M2S is a little bit better than a Bosch on virtually every aspect: weight, size, noise, efficiency, software, overall package (screen, controllers, lights), price of the bikes.
But much more importantly, just look at the bikes, take any Bosch bike like the commencal, crestline, orbea, then compare their Avinox equivalent, they are just so much better looking.
On top of that, a lot of brands have released sub-5k ebikes with the M2, some are even carbon.
There is also the fact that they are releasing things much much faster than the other brands.
This is coming from a happy Bosch owner living in 25km/h limited europe.
What about the rattle tho? Somehow the rattle is never talked about if the motor is everybody's current darling. Back when Bosch was everybody's darling and the CX 4 rattled everyone only talked about how the Shimano rattled and had shitty batteries. I've seen multiple videos of basically all Avinox iterations rattle. So what's the tea there? As far as I know the CX 5 doesn't rattle at all.
Not sure how far you have to go back but I have talked about it. I’ve just put in a claim for my 4th M1 motor… to see if I can get one of the quieter ones. 😅
M2s is quiet as is Bosch G5… we’ve seen more Bosch warranties through our shop than Avinox in this last year.
What's this then? I'm a bit sceptical with those 'it doesn't rattle/it's totally quiet' claims as psychoacoustics and confirmation bias are real things and I've heard these claims with the first motor and the Bosch gen 4 as well.
I hope the Rogue chain ring protection holds up well; I generally like the design and it's sleek and minimalist. It's a bit absurd to me...
I hope the Rogue chain ring protection holds up well; I generally like the design and it's sleek and minimalist. It's a bit absurd to me that so many of the brands using Avinox have foregone chain ring protection. Legit, the motor could be 100x better than a Bosch and it wouldn't matter w/o chainring protection for me as it would be useless for offroad riding.
But 2 obvious points:
That only works on the Rogue. But for any of the other Avinox powered bikes, the universal option is the 250 gram E13 bash ring. Which kind of looks terrible unfortunately and imo sort of ruins the main selling feature of the Avinox, sleekness.
The Rogue builds up into one of the heaviest Avinox bikes I've seen making your point moot. Your Rogue weighs 24.5kgs as I recall? My L Bosch Wild with DH tires, DH wheels, coil shock, G2 LT fork, 200mm AXS, electronic shifting, pedals, downtube protection, etc. weighs 22.1 kgs ready to ride for comparison, verified on 2 separate hanging luggage scales. If I built in into a trail bike, not what it's for obviously, it could weigh 20 kgs.
to 1: the e13 solution is 218g, for a spider, a chainring and the polycarbonate bashguard. you need to deduct the spider and chainring, which makes this protection also sub 100g
to 2: thats with a heavy flash38, coil shock, heavy pedals, 220s front/back/ dh tires, insert in the rear. you know as well that people already posted way lighter builds. your wild has only the tiny battery.
Anyone have any insight if tq bikes will go on sale when they drop the 120? Or will they be keeping the 60.
They already have. Sizing is limited however.
I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K and got another $600 back from my mom's electric utility company.
Cool little bike. The size small is an MX 145/ 150 travel bike. It was quite heavy (over 46#s!) when new with all of the cheap parts but it'll weigh < 41#s once the new wheels arrive (combined with other parts I've swapped). Not bad for having a 580wh battery. It's a sweet, sweet little motor. If it went to around TQ75, I'd prefer it over my Bosch CXR.
They already have. Sizing is limited however.I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K...
They already have. Sizing is limited however.
I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K and got another $600 back from my mom's electric utility company.
Cool little bike. The size small is an MX 145/ 150 travel bike. It was quite heavy (over 46#s!) when new with all of the cheap parts but it'll weigh < 41#s once the new wheels arrive (combined with other parts I've swapped). Not bad for having a 580wh battery. It's a sweet, sweet little motor. If it went to around TQ75, I'd prefer it over my Bosch CXR.
Would be interested to know what wheelset drops 5lb?
Not sure how far you have to go back but I have talked about it. I’ve just put in a claim for my 4th M1 motor...
Not sure how far you have to go back but I have talked about it. I’ve just put in a claim for my 4th M1 motor… to see if I can get one of the quieter ones. 😅
M2s is quiet as is Bosch G5… we’ve seen more Bosch warranties through our shop than Avinox in this last year.
Just to clarify, I definitely don't have a thing where I'm trying too out do Sethimus or 'prove' my CXR is better than an Avinox (hint, it's probably not). But this is a forum where we all want to learn about bike technology and we want real facts, not hyperbole, and there is a lot of horseshit said about these motors, repeated again and again.
Moving on...
Regarding reliability, didn't you say that you still sell more Bosch though, so it would make more sense to see more warranty claims. Which one would you like to try and get parts for in 6 years? LOL That's a trick question; you'd obviously want to be supported by Bosch with slower turn over and replacement cycles.
Some M2/ M2s are starting to rattle. It seems to increase as time goes on. The noise solution enacted on the M2s, seems to be somewhat effective initially but appears to degrade with use.
As you likely know already, the Gen5 cranks disconnect from the gears while coasting (maybe with a sprag clutch?), which eliminates the source of rattle these motors commonly develop and also is why the Gen 5 pedals so well with the motor off.
Rob (the reviewer in the video above) also just acknowledged that his Crestie Gen 5 is still quieter than his own M2s, although I gather he prefers the Avinox.
Regarding the reluctor ring misinfo that is so widely discussed:
"There’s a bit more to it than just a gearbox update though. Bosch says it’s re-engineered the sensor technology in the CX Gen 5 motor to make it more responsive and better at understanding what the rider and terrain are doing.
Of course there are torque sensors and a high-resolution cadence sensor, which are claimed to measure pedal inputs at 1,000 times per second. The motor is also able to detect pitch and vibrations thanks to its inertial sensors, so it knows the difference between a smooth uphill bike path and a technical singletrack pinch-climb. Using this information along with measuring the rider’s power input and current speed, it changes how it delivers power to the rear wheel accordingly.
Thanks to its improved smarts, the CX Gen 5 motor incorporates a new Hill Start Assist function that aims to provide better rear-wheel grip when starting on a steep slope. The Walk Assist has also been updated so that the pushing speed is more accurately matched to your walking speed."
You very well might prefer the Class 3 Avinox over all the other motor systems. Could be the power, the looks, programming, power delivery, whatever. But I've read enough about these motors that I think the Bosch is a more advanced unit. The Bosch has more sensors and info to work with, undergoes more vigorous testing, etc.
They already have. Sizing is limited however.I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K...
They already have. Sizing is limited however.
I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K and got another $600 back from my mom's electric utility company.
Cool little bike. The size small is an MX 145/ 150 travel bike. It was quite heavy (over 46#s!) when new with all of the cheap parts but it'll weigh < 41#s once the new wheels arrive (combined with other parts I've swapped). Not bad for having a 580wh battery. It's a sweet, sweet little motor. If it went to around TQ75, I'd prefer it over my Bosch CXR.
Would be interested to know what wheelset drops 5lb?
Sorry, I should have clarified.
Combined with lots of other swaps I did with parts I had on the shelf. Magura brakes saved just under 1#, CF handlebars/ foam grips/ forged Wren stem saved almost 1#, Mattoc Pro saved over 1# from the cheap F36 it came with, new Trail Martello tires I ordered will save almost 1# combined. I actually was shocked to see how much weight it already dropped before the big parts arrive as it's currently at 43.6#s with pedals. By my math it should weigh low 40# s when completed with pedals installed.
I have a good condition 11 speed drivetrain going on with new wheels. The stock cassette alone weighs 580 grams vs. 270 grams for the 11 sp X01. No one needs a 52T 1st gear on a trail ridden e-bike! The new wheels I ordered from CarbonFans in China with Sapim spokes and DT350 hubs ($900, only new thing I bought, everything else was on the shelf) and they weigh 1342 grams where-as the stock ones are in the 2300 gram range. Both of my girls weigh less than 115#s and just ride down trails, so I intentionally went lightweight on everything.
I'll probably hunt down a used Cane Creek inline air shock because with the stock reservoir shock, there is no room for a water bottle. It just won't fit!
The goal was for them to be able to manage climbs with me at Bentonville or the like when I'm on my Smuggler. But I think their power to weight ratio will be so impressive that they very well might be able to manage the climbs with me when I'm on my full power Wild (in a lower setting).
You get to live in the Swiss Alps. By comparison the rest of us are working mostly with City Hills. LOL
Still, the 'climbs', here in CTX (Central Texas) or Bentonville (easier still) can be unpleasant enough, particularly in our heat.
I will say that CTX trains me just fine for real mountains and in the past, I've been a climbing beast when I travel to the Rockies. It's generally so much smoother and the air is so much cooler, that I find it quite easy comparatively. My traveling companions have found the same thing. Now that I've been on an e-bike for 3 years, I'd say I'm less confident!
You get to live in the Swiss Alps. By comparison the rest of us are working mostly with City Hills. LOLStill, the 'climbs', here in CTX...
You get to live in the Swiss Alps. By comparison the rest of us are working mostly with City Hills. LOL
Still, the 'climbs', here in CTX (Central Texas) or Bentonville (easier still) can be unpleasant enough, particularly in our heat.
I will say that CTX trains me just fine for real mountains and in the past, I've been a climbing beast when I travel to the Rockies. It's generally so much smoother and the air is so much cooler, that I find it quite easy comparatively. My traveling companions have found the same thing. Now that I've been on an e-bike for 3 years, I'd say I'm less confident!
I just did a 3300 foot climb this morning, starting from my office parking lot. Sometimes I forget how spoiled we are out West.
Also, how do you drop a pound from just swapping brakes?
I just did a 3300 foot climb this morning, starting from my office parking lot. Sometimes I forget how spoiled we are out West. Also, how do...
I just did a 3300 foot climb this morning, starting from my office parking lot. Sometimes I forget how spoiled we are out West.
Also, how do you drop a pound from just swapping brakes?
I'm jelly.
Don't think it's e-bike related but going to the Maguras with CF levers and adding in 180mm rotors (remember, light novice on a trail ride) while removing DB8's, 200mm rotors and adaptors, it came out right at 1# savings. Cost, $0!
I'm jelly.Don't think it's e-bike related but going to the Maguras with CF levers and adding in 180mm rotors (remember, light novice on a trail ride)...
I'm jelly.
Don't think it's e-bike related but going to the Maguras with CF levers and adding in 180mm rotors (remember, light novice on a trail ride) while removing DB8's, 200mm rotors and adaptors, it came out right at 1# savings. Cost, $0!
Very good!
But I agree, I think women are more sensitive to weight savings than we are. Women are not just shorter men.
friends don't let friends ride magurastoday's view from the office (Davos in the background):
friends don't let friends ride maguras
today's view from the office (Davos in the background):
They are temperamental brakes, but I mastered them years ago out of necessity. These have been on the shelf for 5+ years but it was nothing to get them going again.
The real Prima Donnas of the MTB braking world are TrickStuff. If you can make those work right and stay working, you have reached nirvana.
Maybe the nerds can compile a long travel emtb weight list of all the avinox and bosch bikes as a competition? First with the list can claim "best motor traction" for a one year period
What about the rattle tho? Somehow the rattle is never talked about if the motor is everybody's current darling. Back when Bosch was everybody's darling and the CX 4 rattled everyone only talked about how the Shimano rattled and had shitty batteries. I've seen multiple videos of basically all Avinox iterations rattle. So what's the tea there? As far as I know the CX 5 doesn't rattle at all.
Not sure how far you have to go back but I have talked about it. I’ve just put in a claim for my 4th M1 motor… to see if I can get one of the quieter ones. 😅
M2s is quiet as is Bosch G5… we’ve seen more Bosch warranties through our shop than Avinox in this last year.
https://youtu.be/E-9yCyND2dA
What's this then? I'm a bit sceptical with those 'it doesn't rattle/it's totally quiet' claims as psychoacoustics and confirmation bias are real things and I've heard these claims with the first motor and the Bosch gen 4 as well.
The comment sums up the rattle phenomenon and the reporting on it pretty good:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/447158761467332/posts/969644742552062/
to 1: the e13 solution is 218g, for a spider, a chainring and the polycarbonate bashguard. you need to deduct the spider and chainring, which makes this protection also sub 100g
to 2: thats with a heavy flash38, coil shock, heavy pedals, 220s front/back/ dh tires, insert in the rear. you know as well that people already posted way lighter builds. your wild has only the tiny battery.
—> bending the truth as you always do
They already have. Sizing is limited however.
I purchased a new small Trek EX+ for my gf & daughter to share. MSRP was $8.7K, I paid $6K and got another $600 back from my mom's electric utility company.
Cool little bike. The size small is an MX 145/ 150 travel bike. It was quite heavy (over 46#s!) when new with all of the cheap parts but it'll weigh < 41#s once the new wheels arrive (combined with other parts I've swapped). Not bad for having a 580wh battery. It's a sweet, sweet little motor. If it went to around TQ75, I'd prefer it over my Bosch CXR.
Would be interested to know what wheelset drops 5lb?
Just to clarify, I definitely don't have a thing where I'm trying too out do Sethimus or 'prove' my CXR is better than an Avinox (hint, it's probably not). But this is a forum where we all want to learn about bike technology and we want real facts, not hyperbole, and there is a lot of horseshit said about these motors, repeated again and again.
Moving on...
Regarding reliability, didn't you say that you still sell more Bosch though, so it would make more sense to see more warranty claims. Which one would you like to try and get parts for in 6 years? LOL That's a trick question; you'd obviously want to be supported by Bosch with slower turn over and replacement cycles.
Some M2/ M2s are starting to rattle. It seems to increase as time goes on. The noise solution enacted on the M2s, seems to be somewhat effective initially but appears to degrade with use.
As you likely know already, the Gen5 cranks disconnect from the gears while coasting (maybe with a sprag clutch?), which eliminates the source of rattle these motors commonly develop and also is why the Gen 5 pedals so well with the motor off.
Here is a video illustrating this.
https://youtube.com/shorts/cuU6K108HBA?si=xhp3rgK4PO1N1_Gu
Rob (the reviewer in the video above) also just acknowledged that his Crestie Gen 5 is still quieter than his own M2s, although I gather he prefers the Avinox.
Regarding the reluctor ring misinfo that is so widely discussed:
First Look | The new Bosch Performance Line CX Gen 5 motor
Smarter sensors
"There’s a bit more to it than just a gearbox update though. Bosch says it’s re-engineered the sensor technology in the CX Gen 5 motor to make it more responsive and better at understanding what the rider and terrain are doing.
Of course there are torque sensors and a high-resolution cadence sensor, which are claimed to measure pedal inputs at 1,000 times per second. The motor is also able to detect pitch and vibrations thanks to its inertial sensors, so it knows the difference between a smooth uphill bike path and a technical singletrack pinch-climb. Using this information along with measuring the rider’s power input and current speed, it changes how it delivers power to the rear wheel accordingly.
Thanks to its improved smarts, the CX Gen 5 motor incorporates a new Hill Start Assist function that aims to provide better rear-wheel grip when starting on a steep slope. The Walk Assist has also been updated so that the pushing speed is more accurately matched to your walking speed."
You very well might prefer the Class 3 Avinox over all the other motor systems. Could be the power, the looks, programming, power delivery, whatever. But I've read enough about these motors that I think the Bosch is a more advanced unit. The Bosch has more sensors and info to work with, undergoes more vigorous testing, etc.
Sorry, I should have clarified.
Combined with lots of other swaps I did with parts I had on the shelf. Magura brakes saved just under 1#, CF handlebars/ foam grips/ forged Wren stem saved almost 1#, Mattoc Pro saved over 1# from the cheap F36 it came with, new Trail Martello tires I ordered will save almost 1# combined. I actually was shocked to see how much weight it already dropped before the big parts arrive as it's currently at 43.6#s with pedals. By my math it should weigh low 40# s when completed with pedals installed.
I have a good condition 11 speed drivetrain going on with new wheels. The stock cassette alone weighs 580 grams vs. 270 grams for the 11 sp X01. No one needs a 52T 1st gear on a trail ridden e-bike! The new wheels I ordered from CarbonFans in China with Sapim spokes and DT350 hubs ($900, only new thing I bought, everything else was on the shelf) and they weigh 1342 grams where-as the stock ones are in the 2300 gram range. Both of my girls weigh less than 115#s and just ride down trails, so I intentionally went lightweight on everything.
I'll probably hunt down a used Cane Creek inline air shock because with the stock reservoir shock, there is no room for a water bottle. It just won't fit!
The goal was for them to be able to manage climbs with me at Bentonville or the like when I'm on my Smuggler. But I think their power to weight ratio will be so impressive that they very well might be able to manage the climbs with me when I'm on my full power Wild (in a lower setting).
climbs? in bentonville?
You get to live in the Swiss Alps. By comparison the rest of us are working mostly with City Hills. LOL
Still, the 'climbs', here in CTX (Central Texas) or Bentonville (easier still) can be unpleasant enough, particularly in our heat.
I will say that CTX trains me just fine for real mountains and in the past, I've been a climbing beast when I travel to the Rockies. It's generally so much smoother and the air is so much cooler, that I find it quite easy comparatively. My traveling companions have found the same thing. Now that I've been on an e-bike for 3 years, I'd say I'm less confident!
I just did a 3300 foot climb this morning, starting from my office parking lot. Sometimes I forget how spoiled we are out West.
Also, how do you drop a pound from just swapping brakes?
I'm jelly.
Don't think it's e-bike related but going to the Maguras with CF levers and adding in 180mm rotors (remember, light novice on a trail ride) while removing DB8's, 200mm rotors and adaptors, it came out right at 1# savings. Cost, $0!
friends don't let friends ride maguras
today's view from the office (Davos in the background):
Very good!
But I agree, I think women are more sensitive to weight savings than we are. Women are not just shorter men.
Headed to the world economic forum?
reducing my accumulated overtime hours in style
They are temperamental brakes, but I mastered them years ago out of necessity. These have been on the shelf for 5+ years but it was nothing to get them going again.
The real Prima Donnas of the MTB braking world are TrickStuff. If you can make those work right and stay working, you have reached nirvana.
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