2025 World Cup Downhill - Val di Sole, Italy

6/26/2025 11:40am Edited Date/Time 6/26/2025 11:41am
bnflynn wrote:
One would think this was the whole point of the "Development Team" and "Guest Rider" designations. They are being brought up to race for the team...

One would think this was the whole point of the "Development Team" and "Guest Rider" designations. They are being brought up to race for the team. What other reason would a team have to do this if they didn't get the points? Teams need to field 1 rider per race, or they lose the World Series Team status, but that's not how the rules are written :

"UCI MTB WORLD SERIES TEAMS can select one rider from their development team to compete at a UCI World Cup within the maximum of 4 riders per race per category."

and

"Guest rider: In addition, a UCI MTB WORLD SERIES TEAM will have the opportunity to request to the UCI for 1 rider to be able to race at two UCI World Cup events within the season in either Elite, Junior or under 23 categories. This can be done outside the transfer period."

When a baseball team calls a guy up from a farm team, or an F1 team needs to fill a seat for a single race, or ditto NASCAR, those teams are doing that because the team gets all the benefits. In the case of cars, the team gets the points. So again, why have these rules for adding riders if the team doesn't actually get the points?

Re: 

"So again, why have these rules for adding riders if the team doesn't actually get the points?"

I'm not sure why that is, but one reason might be that they don't want to allow teams to try to bump up their points totals by grabbing unaffiliated/privateer riders who are scoring more points than the existing members of their team.

I haven't tried to thoroughly understand how UCI determines which teams are "World Series" teams, which are just regular DH teams, or which are wild card recipients. My vague recollection is that when they submit their team rosters to UCI the points that their riders earned in the previous year (and I think it's not limited to points earned in WC races) are used in ranking the teams pre-season. So, if a "guest" rider has a good year and is interested in joining the team full-time the following year, the team would benefit from that rider's points, even if they didn't get points in the standings the previous year. 

I always root for non-team riders like Roger Vieira and Antoine Rogge (currently 31st in the standings) and hope they find full-time positions with quality teams. It would be great if UCI could find a way to enable that mid-season.

bnflynn
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6/26/2025 12:11pm

I agree there. Teams shouldn't be able to get points from a rider who wasn't riding for their team at the time. But they are designating this rider to be on their roster for this race, and it seems like the idea is to get that rider's points for this race. Thinking about it more like how fantasy leagues work - if you pick the rider that weekend you get their points, and if you don't put them on that week's roster you get anything they earn that week.

bizutch
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6/26/2025 12:33pm
bnflynn wrote:
I agree there. Teams shouldn't be able to get points from a rider who wasn't riding for their team at the time. But they are designating...

I agree there. Teams shouldn't be able to get points from a rider who wasn't riding for their team at the time. But they are designating this rider to be on their roster for this race, and it seems like the idea is to get that rider's points for this race. Thinking about it more like how fantasy leagues work - if you pick the rider that weekend you get their points, and if you don't put them on that week's roster you get anything they earn that week.

If it's a team competition, then anyone who "scores", the points have to count.  Teams have bills to pay & sponsor obligations. If your riders are injured & roster is decimated, points have to be up for grabs for riders representing a team in the competition.  You'd not let a run not count in a ball game from a player brought up from the farm system.

I really do hate this stuff now.

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LePigPen
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6/26/2025 12:33pm
bizutch wrote:
Finals Stats:13 of the Finalists were in the Vali di Sole top 30 in 202317 of the Finalists were in the Val di Sole top 30...

Finals Stats:
13 of the Finalists were in the Vali di Sole top 30 in 2023
17 of the Finalists were in the Val di Sole top 30 in 2024
11 WC winners into Finals
9 of the top 15 are WC winners
8 of the top 10 are WC winners
Top 5 are ALL WC winners
13 Countries Represented

6 French (4 WC Winners/Each w/ 2 or more wins) Bruni - 11/Vergier - 6/Daprela -2/Benoit - 2
5 British (2 WC Winners) Walker - 1/Williams - 1
4 Italians (0 Wins)
3 American (0 Wins)
3 Irish (2 WC Winners) Dunne - 1/Oisin - 1
2 Australian (1 WC Winner)  Brosnan - 4
1Spaniard (0 Wins)

1 Swede (0 Wins)
1 Columbian (0 Wins
1 German (0 Wins)
1 Brazilian (0 Wins)
1 Austrian (1 WC Winner) Kolb - 1
1 Canadian (1 WC Winner) GoldStone - 4

Last Morsel - 

Goldstone - Has Won 4 of 11 World Cups Entered
Goldstone has won THREE of the last FOUR World Cups Entered
His 1st WC Win WAS VAL DI SOLE 2023...by 2.2 seconds !!!
***Only 2 riders in Finals have won here before. Goldstone & Vergier.*** 

Only Active racers to have tamed the BlackSnake are Amaury (2), Gwin (4), Laurie (1), Hart (1). 
Retired winners - Minnarr (1), Atherton (1)




 

bizutch wrote:
Finals Thoughts:Goldstone has won 4 of the last 5 World Cup's entered & 5 of 12 total.That's an Elite Category winning ratio of 42%Flats: With Fearon...

Finals Thoughts:
Goldstone has won 4 of the last 5 World Cup's entered & 5 of 12 total.
That's an Elite Category winning ratio of 42%

Flats: With Fearon absent, anyone on the circuit (sponsored or privateer) a full time flats racer?  


Sam HIll ripping VDS on flats in the duff was so iconic.  
It dawned on me that most of the pre-show SUCKS because WBD isn't attempting to license any highlight footage.
We saw ZERO historical flashbacks. ZERO comparison videos to years past. ZERO prior successes or disasters. 
How do you get an audience excited if you have no imagery or nostalgia in your sport.
So not only are they trying to erase our records by ripping away our sport specific podium & quoting made up stats for their podium, they're tossing our memories of the sport on a shelf.  


Team Points...where do I find em? Whose won the team category each of the last 10 years?

Domo-Kun wrote:

Jackson now has the most Canadian world cup wins surpassing Stevie Smith. 

i feel like this just got glossed over... crazy to think stevie only won 3 for the overall. i remember that overall being TIGHT. was it the very last round?

and only one one more the year prior. and now Jacko has 5 elite wins. Just like that. Stevie would be stoked on the current state of Canadian DH.

dolface
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6/26/2025 2:00pm
bizutch wrote:
Finals Thoughts:Goldstone has won 4 of the last 5 World Cup's entered & 5 of 12 total.That's an Elite Category winning ratio of 42%Flats: With Fearon...

Finals Thoughts:
Goldstone has won 4 of the last 5 World Cup's entered & 5 of 12 total.
That's an Elite Category winning ratio of 42%

Flats: With Fearon absent, anyone on the circuit (sponsored or privateer) a full time flats racer?  


Sam HIll ripping VDS on flats in the duff was so iconic.  
It dawned on me that most of the pre-show SUCKS because WBD isn't attempting to license any highlight footage.
We saw ZERO historical flashbacks. ZERO comparison videos to years past. ZERO prior successes or disasters. 
How do you get an audience excited if you have no imagery or nostalgia in your sport.
So not only are they trying to erase our records by ripping away our sport specific podium & quoting made up stats for their podium, they're tossing our memories of the sport on a shelf.  


Team Points...where do I find em? Whose won the team category each of the last 10 years?

Domo-Kun wrote:

Jackson now has the most Canadian world cup wins surpassing Stevie Smith. 

LePigPen wrote:
i feel like this just got glossed over... crazy to think stevie only won 3 for the overall. i remember that overall being TIGHT. was it...

i feel like this just got glossed over... crazy to think stevie only won 3 for the overall. i remember that overall being TIGHT. was it the very last round?

and only one one more the year prior. and now Jacko has 5 elite wins. Just like that. Stevie would be stoked on the current state of Canadian DH.

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

1
6/26/2025 2:26pm
Domo-Kun wrote:

Jackson now has the most Canadian world cup wins surpassing Stevie Smith. 

LePigPen wrote:
i feel like this just got glossed over... crazy to think stevie only won 3 for the overall. i remember that overall being TIGHT. was it...

i feel like this just got glossed over... crazy to think stevie only won 3 for the overall. i remember that overall being TIGHT. was it the very last round?

and only one one more the year prior. and now Jacko has 5 elite wins. Just like that. Stevie would be stoked on the current state of Canadian DH.

dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

I don’t believe Troy has won an overall.  Has come second and third nearly every year on the other hand.

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veefour
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6/26/2025 2:55pm
dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

Matt Walker won the 2020 overall (weird, messed up covid season) without winning a race. 

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LePigPen
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Troys been second twice. Troy may have the most seconds of everything in DH history. And most podiums. Must be a weird feeling to know you are that good, but rarely the tip of the spear. Just the sharp edge below the side of it...

Props to Walker for taking advantage, but yeah... That was Loic's to lose. Dunno if he was in the state of mind to think about overall at that first round, cuz he fumbled it. Hindsight, 20/20.

Ratboy only won 2 for his overall. It's honestly super impressive Stevie and Ratboy took overalls during the Gwin/Gee/Minnaar era. Gwin was an absolute nightmare in his era.

dolface
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6/26/2025 4:03pm
dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

veefour wrote:

Matt Walker won the 2020 overall (weird, messed up covid season) without winning a race. 

Thanks, THAT'S who I was thinking of!

6/28/2025 6:34am
dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

I’m pretty sure Nathan Rennie did it in ‘05  (‘06?) on the yellow IH SGS. #weagleplates

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veefour
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6/28/2025 8:25am
dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

I’m pretty sure Nathan Rennie did it in ‘05  (‘06?) on the yellow IH SGS. #weagleplates

Rennie won the overall in 2003. According to roots and rain he won the Alpe d'Huez race that year.

https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider4108/nathan-rennie/results/

6/28/2025 7:43pm
dolface wrote:

Did Troy win the overall without winning a round? (Semi-related: Lemond won the 1990 Tour de France without winning a stage).

I’m pretty sure Nathan Rennie did it in ‘05  (‘06?) on the yellow IH SGS. #weagleplates

veefour wrote:

Rennie won the overall in 2003. According to roots and rain he won the Alpe d'Huez race that year.

https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider4108/nathan-rennie/results/

As soon as I hit the big green submit button, I thought to myself, I should probably hit up RandR just to be sure. Thanks for not being lazy on my behalf.

1
6/29/2025 10:33am

I posted this in the '2025 Race Talk' forum as well, but @Between The Tape is back with another post-race analysis from Val di Sole with some cool insights into how the race unfolded and what could have been for a lot of racers on a track that saw more separation between riders than the rounds before. 

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/simulated-racer-where-was-race-won-and-lost-val-di-sole-analysis 

SImulatedVDS-1 0
2
6/29/2025 4:04pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2025 4:06pm

I really enjoy these simulations. Thanks for posting!

It seems quite a few DH race fans would like to see the Finals field expand by 10 or more riders. I wonder if Between The Tape would consider for a future race doing a "what if" analysis for the riders who finished 11-20 in Q2 to see what their potential best times might have been had they been included in the finals. (Obviously the analysis would be based on less data, since there'd be no Finals sector times included for that group.) 

[Edited to mention that I forgot to quote Jason Schroeder's post.]

 

1
6/29/2025 10:37pm
I really enjoy these simulations. Thanks for posting!It seems quite a few DH race fans would like to see the Finals field expand by 10 or...

I really enjoy these simulations. Thanks for posting!

It seems quite a few DH race fans would like to see the Finals field expand by 10 or more riders. I wonder if Between The Tape would consider for a future race doing a "what if" analysis for the riders who finished 11-20 in Q2 to see what their potential best times might have been had they been included in the finals. (Obviously the analysis would be based on less data, since there'd be no Finals sector times included for that group.) 

[Edited to mention that I forgot to quote Jason Schroeder's post.]

 

While I wouldn't be able to include racers outside of Finals where the data is contingent on their final time or rank, I've made a note to try and expand some of the other analyses out to see if I can include more racers. At the very least, I can publish simulated rank tables for the whole field. Maybe I will post these in the forum to not swamp the articles with long tables.

Fun anecdote: in the "Elite Men: Simulated Leader Board" graphic for Val di Sole, you will notice the simulated ranks 21 & 22 are missing. These ranks correspond to Andreas Kold (DNS) and Henri Kiefer (Did not qualify) respectively and so get omitted as they don't have a corresponding Finals time. I've updated the plot with a caption:

plot bump 1.png?VersionId=8yN1uDSZ2qryxm9R4PC6qThanks for the feedback. Keep it coming!

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