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Avy in an Intend?
It has been done.
The new hybrid shock was released yesterday - EU only. It is a package with an air fork and the hybrid shock for burly riding. Costs an arm, a leg AND both your kindeys.
Yes, I begged Craig a couple years back to set up his open bath hybrid coil in my Intend Edge. It's a fantastic fork, but I don't think he's done one since (said he didn't want to put it on his site).
I’d asked him about it after seeing yours, he said it required a lot of time and work to make it fit, and realistically the cost just doesn’t make sense for most customers. Fingers crossed the new Fox USD will be an easier fit.
Apologies for the radio silence, the winter/spring transition was a tough one for the test track.
There were some changes made to the testing protocol; the number of test shocks has been reduced from 5 to 3. I want the data to be as accurate as possible, and as such the shocks are all run on the same day back to back. Given that it is a self shuttle situation, it was just not possible to do 11+ runs/day without fatigue being a factor in the times. The pedal back to the start of the track is a steep 15 minute techy climb that requires near maximum effort.
It also took a bit of practice to get consistent effort levels. It's not like road or XC testing where a power meter can be used to ensure a consistent input. The same gear was used for each run, 6-7 cranks off the line and then little to no pedaling. I tried to keep the pumping and pushing the berms to a 80-90% perceived effort level. The result was very consistent times for the first official test session.
The first run for shock #1 was accidentally erased, but still recorded.
Shock #1 2:14:64, 2:14:66 (.02 sec difference)
Shock #2 2:11:91, 2:11:51 (.4 sec difference)
Shock #3 2:13:65, 2:09:67 (This last time is an outlier as a massive thunderstorm was moving in and the lightning was getting bad, I just wanted to get off the exposed ridgeline!)
Needless to say I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Two more sessions with the testing order changed so each shock is tested at each spot in the rotation and hopefully the data stays consistent.
Can you share what shock you prefer or feels best to you?
Not quite yet, I'm going to wait until the next two sessions are complete before getting into that.
After each run I record notes on general feel and "perception of speed" before looking at the actual time. It is already quite interesting in regards to the data, not the results I was expecting for this track.
The shocks being tested are both Marzocchi Bomber CRs (Fluid Focus tune and Avalanche racing tune) and the Vorsprung Telum.
Thank you for updating this as you can. Interesting to see how it plays out. Would be curious to watch a video of a average test lap on whichever stock you prefer at the end of this test.
3 test sessions, 18 runs, 9 hours, 1 roasted rear tire, and a few more dings in the rim. The results are finally in with the Fluid Focus tuned Marzocchi Bomber CR coming out on top in every session.
All three shocks were ridden extensively prior to the timed runs, including multiple bracketing sessions to get the settings in a good place. The bracketing sessions were done purely based on feel, no timing or other analytics.
Avalanche Racing Bomber CR (tuned by Avalanche)
This shock felt good right away. It has a magic carpet type ride where chatter and trail noise is simply erased. For general riding and climbing it offers tons of traction and a buttery smooth feel. When the trail got rough and fast it did feel more nervous and overwhelmed compared to the other shocks, and it was easier to push through the support in berms. Overall a very comfortable shock that is easy to setup. Settings as tested: LSC -10 (of 25), Reb -6 (of 17).
Vorsprung Telum
Setup as supplied by Vorsprung was pretty much spot on, I played with a few settings but ended up right back where it started. When pushing on the saddle, it is easy to feel the work that went into eliminating friction. The Telum is very supple and smooth. It also has a much more damped feel compared to the Avy shock. Initial trail riding was interesting as I was expecting more harshness or feedback based on how damped it felt, but this was never the case. It would even feel soft at times, but still have good support for pumping smooth trail. Based on how it felt, I was surprised this shock had consistently slower times than the Fluid Focus shock as they felt pretty similar. Settings: LSC -14, HSC -8, Reb -9, HBO -6.
Fluid Focus Bomber CR kit (self installed)
The LSC range on this shock is huge! It took the longest to setup and get it dialed, somewhat opposite of the Avy shock that was "rideable" in almost any LSC setting. Not to say that the FF shock became overly harsh with LSC closed, it would still move when hitting obstacles, but it also had a ton of support at low speeds like when pumping and pushing in berms. Impressive blending and balance of LSC/HSC compression damping. There was more feedback though the pedals, but when the speed picked up and the terrain got rough it was amazing. So much control and confidence. Settings: LSC -9 (of 20), Reb -8 (of 15).
I have a pretty good idea why one shock was faster than another, with the elephant in the room being the Vorsprung Telum. This shock has way more adjustments than the others, and I was not able to bracket it all prior to testing. Combine this with the fact it can be "revalved" without having to take it apart I am confident speed could be improved with more testing. With the online tuning hub and support that Vorsrung offers to Telum owners it really does change the tuning game, but it is also a $1000+ piece of equipment.
If you are competent at rebuilding suspension, the Fluid Focus Bomber CR kit is impossible to beat for the price. A stock Bomber CR retails for $300, and the FF kit is $165. The kit comes with a ton of shims and a guide for multiple compression and rebound tunes developed by Fluid Focus on the dyno. For under $500, nothing else is in the same universe.
This is great, thank you for sharing.
Can you shed a bit more light on your FF tune? Did you try a couple of different tunes or did you stick with their first recommendation? Do they only adjust midvalve and rebound shim tuning, or does it include the base valve as well? I have one of their kits on my Lithium, but I want to step up the HSC just a touch more, but otherwise I love it.
I'd love to mess around with this kit at home, but there aren't any formal bomber CR service videos on youtube!
A slightly stiffer version of the compression tune Fluid Focus recommended was run, which was the 2nd from softest. I added an .8 x .006 shim to the C6 tune.
Rebound started with the tune recommended for a 450-500# spring (using a 475#). It was topping out a bit so it was swapped to the 525-575# tune. Still tops out slightly, but it's more annoying than anything else. Similar to an Ohlins coil.
The FF kit comes with a new mid valve piston and shims, a jet to change the size of the bleed through the piston bolt, and a new shim stack for the base valve. Also full spes for the IFP, as well as 4 compression tunes and 5 rebound tunes. Pretty cool that they do this, most tuners require you send the shock in for custom tuning and don't often reveal shim tunes.
Regarding the Telum shock:
The ontrail revalve feature is very very nice and useful. Basically the Telum recommandations are very good. They are more on the safe site so that a lot of people can drive it. There is no surprise and the shock is working very good.
But if you want to go crazy with data acquisation at the bike, then you can see the advantage of the Telum. Also you see, that there is different tune for the rebound necessary. At this is easy doable.
You can achieve the same results with a RS Vivid, MZ Bomber CR or what ever, but therefore you have to do calculations, rebuilds and more tests than with the Telum.
Who needs a Telum?
- People who wants the newest and best stuff.
- For data acquisation at the costumer. A reshim is done in 30s. No need for extra rounds for changing the shock.
- For developing new tunes. It is easy to test various tunes without changing the shock and therfore you do not need several shocks at the testing day.
The Telum is a great shock. The Tuning Hub is a great plattform. If you like the recommendations of Vorsprung, is a different story. These are very good, but if you have a special taste for suspension feeling, you have to play with the hub and this is also one bonus point.
So at the moment the Telum has the best overall offer in any terms of:
- adjustability
- Support (seeing the damping forces)
Durability can not be judged at the moment.
For your info: If have tested the Telum in a V10.8 with data acquisation with a tuned Dorado Pro fork.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the DVO Jade X Prime, or even better, including it in a future test! For whatever reason, reviews on this shock are impossible to find.
Very happy to see this thread!! I actually have a Bomber CR from my 2020 Kona 134 (it sucked on that bike), but when I got my Banshee Prime last year I noticed it was the correct shock size and threw it on that bike. Its actually a pretty great shock once you have the right kinematics for it!
Anyway, considering I bought that shock back in Feb 2020, it seriously needs a service at this point. I figured I would send it to Fluid Focus to get it rebuilt and tuned with their parts. Glad to hear its a good performer, Ill hit them up sooner rather than later.
I use Motul VI400 Shock oil. It has a cSt of 16.3 and the very high viscosity index to prevent any heat related fade.
I am about to build up a new frame and appreciate this thread. I think I'm torn between an Avy'd CR or a FF tuned CR that a local tuner can do. I think your thread has convinced me to try the local guy and the FF setup. Having the local tweak capability is a huge one for me although I've had good luck with avy in the past.
Once question I do have, have you tried running the avy style bottom out bumper cup on the FF shock or is the FF kit in the test an uncaptured bumper?
Local tuned ohlins and ext is also a real option but unless has reason otherwise I think a tuned simpler shock might be the route.
The FF shock tested has an Avalanche Racing captured bumper kit as well, bit of a hybrid shock. The stock Bomber CR bottom out bumper is pretty minimal.
If you have a local tuner to help with shim stacks on the Fluid Focus kit it really is a great option. If you give FF some bike and rider information, they will steer you in the right direction in terms of which compression tune to use.
What are the most coil-friendly trail/all-mountain frames which can use a 205 eye to eye Trunnion shock with 57.5-65 stroke?
I think quite a few. Transition and Raaw fit this description. I just recently built up a Kavenz that’s can also take 205 x 57.5-60
Transition Sentinal, Gen 7 trek fuel ex/mx and several more.
Just my 2 cents, a coil shock on a true trail/all-mountain bike isn't worth the price of admission, weight. I was riding my stumpy evo with a custom tuned coil, ate chunk for dinner, I said to myself, lets add a Smashpot, and a Lift... Next thing you know my carbon wheeled carbon frame all mountain bike weighed 39ish'lbs but was never really spectacular anywhere. Bought a Madonna and slowly converted the stumpy back to its roots and It was the best decision ever. Its back to weighing >35lbs, pops off of everything, and is a blast to ride, on the right trails. Im a firm believer that you really want/need a bike with a ruler flat LR that has high progressivity >25%, to get a coil shock to come alive. There is a decent weight penalty and a lack of granularity in spring weights that can make coil not the right tool for the job on a short travel trail bike, as much as I love riding bikes with coils I made the same mistake on a remedy years ago and then just ended up getting a slash to give me the big hit shuttle bike feel and left the remedy to play on the less intense backyard trails. Should have learned the first time but YMMV.
I'm absolutely guilty of that - coil is so addicting! A nice middle ground in my limited experience thus far is the Intend Hover - ~450 g and nearly as supple as a coil.
I'm not quite sure I 100% agree. Currently running a DVO Jade X Prime x Sprindex coil on a '19 Sentinel with Cascade Link (150/146 travel) and it feels incredible. The bike weighs about 36.7 lbs which is heavy but tolerable for a size XL and a 190 lb rider. The Sprindex solves the spring rate problem and it always baffled me that more riders don't run it. The only reason I posed the question is if the Sentinel ever breaks, I'd like to know what my options are.
I do like that Sprindex springs are adjustable, but they're often not close to the actual number they're set to. Additionally, they're progressive and that plastic adjuster can break.
If they are good enough for Vorsprung, they are good enough for me. #coilshockforlife
What is your motivation for picking/building a frame around a Trunnion shock?
I think the Sprindex, despite its flaws, aligns with the philosophy of the Telum, which is rapid trail-side adjustability around a pre-determined sweet spot. I obviously have no insight into Vosrprung's decision-making but I'd guess that's the trade-off they made. And not having a complete range of their own springs makes inventory management a lot simpler at the volumes they're probably expecting. Maybe they simply have a box of spare adjusters to send out to customers if/when they fail...
Coil shocks for everything!
Tallboy 4 w/ cascade link and 7.5' x 2.0' coil shock (stock is 190mm x 45mm). Rear travel is around 145mm, front is 150mm with a 64.5 degree HA. Very supple, yet still supportive and a blast to pump down the trail.
With light wheels (as pictured), it rips the climbs and is a big mileage all day trail machine. Swap to heavier wheels and tires and it will handle any enduro course out there.
Nice setup. Tallboy 4 on the shortlist for my next bike. Adjustable chainstays, solid geo and suspension. Have no desire to get the newer ones.
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