How would you save EDR/EWS/"World Cup" Enduro

Primoz
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SI
9/16/2023 9:32pm Edited Date/Time 9/16/2023 9:33pm

Ah I was under the impression that there is no substitute for ews100, only spots for qualified racers... 

swoopswoop
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5/4/2023
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Caerphilly GB
9/17/2023 3:17am
Primoz wrote:
Bring back EWS100! (surely that would increase the interest?) Motorracing has shown that manufacturers do not make a successful series. F1 and Le Mans/WEC showed that...

Bring back EWS100! (surely that would increase the interest?)

Motorracing has shown that manufacturers do not make a successful series. F1 and Le Mans/WEC showed that. When you have private teams, them stopping racing means closing up the shop. They go through hell and high water to keep racing through sponsorships. When manufacturers come they either fail miserably (Toyota and Honda in F1) and pull out (Toyota, Honda, BMW in 2008/09) or achieve everything and call it quits as there is no more point in spending the money (Porsche in 2018-ish in WEC). And with manufacturers the costs spiraled to insane levels in motorsports due to a spending development war.

Only if you make the team a sound business it will be safe when it comes to bad times in the economy, which is shown by all the privateers that kept racing through the financial crisis in 08/09 and the following years. Or it has to really be worth it like for Mercedes that in the winning years apparently spent ~30 million € a year for the F1 team and supposedly got one or two orders of magnitude more worth from the program marketing wise. And the Mercedes team, while a factory team, is more or less a private team anyway as it's owned in one thirds by Mercedes, Toto Wolff (team principal) and Ineos, so Mercedes doesn't have a full stake in it.

So, TL;DR, would having proper private teams (like what Pivot and Specialized factory teams are in essence) solve the issue? That way the teams would have a bigger incentive to stay open even if the factory decides to drop the sponsorship. Outside sponsorship would help immensely as well in this regard... The current state of media coverage is a pain in that regard though.

Mercedes were spending significantly more than that during their peak years. The cost cap in place now is over €100million (can't remember what it is this year, €130m rings a bell), and they had to downsize their operation significantly to make that budget cap, as did Ferrari and Red Bull. 

The way the EDR works now is pretty much how F1 works either way. UCI are the FIA, ESO are FOM, and the race teams more or less have a similar ownership structure as it is.

Your reference to Porsche leaving WEC is probably closer to what's happening in EDR now. Porsche are also part of the VAG group, so VAG spending all that money to effectively have their own Audi team competing with their own Porsche team made no sense. The main issue though were "economic headwinds" (e.g. dieselgate fines) that meant they decided to cut their race team budget, and drop down to a single team. I can't remember the specific reasoning at the time but I believe the consensus was it was easier to make WEC technology seem more relevant to Audi road cars so that's why they went Audi over Porsche. 

Ultimately it came down to external financial pressures on the company leading them to cut race team expenditure, and that's all that's happening here. If teams were still selling bikes like they were in 2020 they wouldn't be pulling out. It's purely money.

1
9/17/2023 8:27am
earleb wrote:

Can someone remind me what happened to the Vital slideshows with Sven Martin? Who was funding these and why did they stop?

I can only guess that its a combination of him and Anka having a kid recently, along with racing schedules being way more intense this year...

I can only guess that its a combination of him and Anka having a kid recently, along with racing schedules being way more intense this year that he has had other priorities. Same probably goes for the other photogs, I imagine they have way more intense workloads during race week this year that those kinds of things fall by the wayside

casey79 wrote:

Sven and Boris are now working with James and the Misspent Summers crew. Haven’t seen any of their work on Vital all year. 

I think Sven and Boris have been with Misspent Summer last season and this season. They are certainly missed here on VitalMTB, but it is still cool to have a location to see their photo work. Dan Hearn moved on from VitalMTB after the 2021 season and has been shooting for the EWS last year and EDR this year. All great guys.

9/17/2023 10:49am Edited Date/Time 9/17/2023 10:52am

The main reason the WRC weekend recap show is entertaining is because of the onboard/in-car cameras and the driver interviews after each stage. Seems the easy answer for enduro is mandatory Go-Pro/Insta360/whoever wants to sponsor them with cameras for the top 20-30ish riders. This solves the content/filming problem, as you would have a huge amount of material to use for the highlight show. Then you have a few people like Rick who actually travel with the race to the end of each stage (they would need an E-bike or moto escort) to do live interviews right as the riders come across the line (just like WRC). The emotion is high and they will be more likely to give you an animated recap of almost dying. I think having an opening stage at a bike park/trail center with jumps that fans could see in person would help, and I definitely agree that filming the final stage as much as possible would be the best use of fixed, on-course cameras.

1
Primoz
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9/17/2023 11:51am
Primoz wrote:
Bring back EWS100! (surely that would increase the interest?) Motorracing has shown that manufacturers do not make a successful series. F1 and Le Mans/WEC showed that...

Bring back EWS100! (surely that would increase the interest?)

Motorracing has shown that manufacturers do not make a successful series. F1 and Le Mans/WEC showed that. When you have private teams, them stopping racing means closing up the shop. They go through hell and high water to keep racing through sponsorships. When manufacturers come they either fail miserably (Toyota and Honda in F1) and pull out (Toyota, Honda, BMW in 2008/09) or achieve everything and call it quits as there is no more point in spending the money (Porsche in 2018-ish in WEC). And with manufacturers the costs spiraled to insane levels in motorsports due to a spending development war.

Only if you make the team a sound business it will be safe when it comes to bad times in the economy, which is shown by all the privateers that kept racing through the financial crisis in 08/09 and the following years. Or it has to really be worth it like for Mercedes that in the winning years apparently spent ~30 million € a year for the F1 team and supposedly got one or two orders of magnitude more worth from the program marketing wise. And the Mercedes team, while a factory team, is more or less a private team anyway as it's owned in one thirds by Mercedes, Toto Wolff (team principal) and Ineos, so Mercedes doesn't have a full stake in it.

So, TL;DR, would having proper private teams (like what Pivot and Specialized factory teams are in essence) solve the issue? That way the teams would have a bigger incentive to stay open even if the factory decides to drop the sponsorship. Outside sponsorship would help immensely as well in this regard... The current state of media coverage is a pain in that regard though.

swoopswoop wrote:
Mercedes were spending significantly more than that during their peak years. The cost cap in place now is over €100million (can't remember what it is this...

Mercedes were spending significantly more than that during their peak years. The cost cap in place now is over €100million (can't remember what it is this year, €130m rings a bell), and they had to downsize their operation significantly to make that budget cap, as did Ferrari and Red Bull. 

The way the EDR works now is pretty much how F1 works either way. UCI are the FIA, ESO are FOM, and the race teams more or less have a similar ownership structure as it is.

Your reference to Porsche leaving WEC is probably closer to what's happening in EDR now. Porsche are also part of the VAG group, so VAG spending all that money to effectively have their own Audi team competing with their own Porsche team made no sense. The main issue though were "economic headwinds" (e.g. dieselgate fines) that meant they decided to cut their race team budget, and drop down to a single team. I can't remember the specific reasoning at the time but I believe the consensus was it was easier to make WEC technology seem more relevant to Audi road cars so that's why they went Audi over Porsche. 

Ultimately it came down to external financial pressures on the company leading them to cut race team expenditure, and that's all that's happening here. If teams were still selling bikes like they were in 2020 they wouldn't be pulling out. It's purely money.

*motorsports rambling*
It's not how much the team spent for the development (RB, Merc and Ferrari were spending more or less half a billion per year at their peaks, at least 400 million for sure). It's how much Daimler AG at the time (Mercedes-Benz Group AG these days) threw into the team which is a completely separate business entity.

The cost cap was initially 145 million USD for 2021, 140 million for 2022 and 135 for 23-25, but that was amended due to inflation through 22 or something. The cost cap also gave us the Ferrari Hypercar program in Le Mans and other similar projects, as people in those teams needed something to do.

Porsche left because they were spending tons to win everything and got bored, Audi left because of Dieselgate (supposedly, it was also an image thing as the R18 for the next year was finished and ready to race) and Audi left before Porsche. And Porsche's entry was their own thing, even though Volkswagen group owns both brands. History almost repeated itself through F1 anyway, only for Porsche wanting too much from Red Bull and not getting what they wanted.
*/motorsports rambling*

But all of that is the gist of what I was trying to say. In motorsports the big automakers find a small reason to pull the plug and don't care at the end of the day. So much so that Honda sold their F1 team to Brawn for 1 GBP and threw in ~100 million quid to keep it operating for a year (as that would be the cost of closing down the company and paying severances to all the people) and Sauber raced as BMW Sauber with Ferrari engines in 2010 after BMW pulled the plug and the title sponsor name of the team couldn't be changed anymore. But privateer teams like Williams and McLaren held their stuff together in much worse times as that was their main activity and cutting that would mean closing down the company, not just cut a marketing expense. And they got it done through sponsors and grit.

1
jeff.brines
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Location
Grand Junction, CO US
9/17/2023 1:23pm

Random thought for the audience: Is it really appropriate to compare bike racing to motorsport racing? While I see the analog at face value, when you dig deeper I'm not sure if it really makes sense... 

1) The companies involved in motorsport racing are many orders of magnitude bigger. 

2) Most forms of auto racing are 100x easier to capture on film. 

3) Auto racing is arguably more relatable. Everyone tries to race at some point or another, even if its just passing the guy on the onramp. 

4) There were tax reasons from way back when a number of the companies (such as Porsche) became so racing centric. This engrained racing into the company's roots and cemented a culture of racing in Europe.  This has never existed in mtb. 

5) Unlike auto racing, no outside company has really stuck around mtb for the long haul. I'd argue you need this sort of thing to really capture the sport in a high enough quality way that it can become "dramatic" and the storylines are developed in a way that keeps people engaged emotionally. 

 

3
funktekk
Posts
98
Joined
6/13/2023
Location
Shawnee, KS US
9/18/2023 8:52am

I have been thinking about this for at least a month now.

The most sell-able feature of Enduro racing is it represents the type of riding most enthusiasts wish they did. In order to improve viewership I would lean into this feature heavily. Mountain bike tourism is huge right now. Essentially turn each race into a an epic buddy trip:

#1 - Multi-day races

#2 - Exotic adventurous locations + popular MTB destinations

#3 - Each race is different. Different number of stages, days of racing, types of accommodations, blind stages, mass start, etc.

#4 - More pedal liaisons. at least 50%.

#5 - External help during the liaisons, only over night.

#6 - Emphasis on teams support. Team radios for communication & support ala road stage racing. 

#7 - Emphasis on team ranking

#8 - Mandatory POV for the top 10 and/or Team Leader (on at all times during the race even liaisons).

#9 - Encourage cross-over from DH and XC and vice-versa

#10 - Final stage ala downhill, rider sort and televised.

 

The pre-race video starts off as a travel advert for the destination. Interspliced with riders arriving, teams setting up, enjoying the local eateries, etc. Then taking us through a course preview. In addition to the boring graphic they put up now they could have someone actually ride the course with a POV and a camera crew to capture interesting sections.

The race coverage uses clips from staged cameras, POV footage, and rider interviews to tell the story each day. I see this working like the show Alone. Its a survival show, but it is mostly filmed by the contestants using POV cameras. In that show and in this case the participants would quickly find they can either increase their exposure on the broadcast by performing well or also just being entertaining. This would also let the view build a more personal engagement with the riders. I bet some really entertaining stuff happens on liaisons. This format allows the silent assassin type (Richie Rude) or the court jester (Ed Masters) to be equally valuable commodities to a team. 

Final day coverage starts off with a highlight reel from the previous days, building into a final live televised stage. Riders would be sorted based on standings to that point in the race. 

I think it is important that each race be different in as many ways as possible that cater specifically to the venue. Maybe one race has an over night in tents on a remote portion of the mountain. Their could be a whole storyline of mechanics pedaling up to camp on e-bikes and then all kinda camp shenanigans. Maybe a venue lends itself to a mass start stage, maybe there is a mass roll out for a pre-stage 1 pedal liaison. It would be best to let each organizer do what they think is best to promote their area as best they see fit. 

 

2

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