how close are we to peak mountain bike??

kanioni
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Helsinki FI
8/12/2023 3:21pm

To elaborate, the mass difference at rear axle is only maybe 1/2 or 1 lbs, but you gotta factor in acceleration when the rear wheel hits something. Suddenly that mass difference get's multiplied by g forces and the heavier wheel won't move out of way as fast

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LLLLL
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8/13/2023 6:57am
kcy4130 wrote:
I can drive my car 100k miles without servicing it's suspension once, I'd say bikes still have plenty of room for improvement. Not apples to apples...

I can drive my car 100k miles without servicing it's suspension once, I'd say bikes still have plenty of room for improvement. Not apples to apples I know, but still.

I could ride my road bike for a 100k miles i I wouldn’t have to service it’s suspension either Wink  

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Bobbylon
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GS
8/13/2023 8:32am
Stoked to see different thoughts, figured I'd weigh in with my own, mostly focusing on components/tech as geometry is still such a rider-specific thing, and I...

Stoked to see different thoughts, figured I'd weigh in with my own, mostly focusing on components/tech as geometry is still such a rider-specific thing, and I don't believe you can be prescriptive about it, hence backing up a lot of input on this thread about custom bikes/geo for specific riders. I'm all in!

Brakes

I truly believe brakes are as good as they'd ever need to be. Models in particular to mention would be Hayes Dominion, DH-R Evo and the trusty Code RSC. Put simply these brakes offer stupid reliability (Possible to ride an entire season or more of heavy riding without a bleed) and enough power to satisfy seemingly everyone. What I am curious about (please weigh in if you have experience) is the shear amount of boutique brake offerings, especially from some smaller Euro brands, all claiming to be leagues ahead of mass produced counterparts, yet their success in races over common counterparts remains to be seen hence reinforcing my belief that brakes are a pretty done deal!

Drivetrain

Transmission has changed the game is this respect, I was passionate that gearboxes would be the next big thing in our little world. Instead what they've fundamentally done is made the derailleur a more structural, integrated member that is as stiff and strong as some pieces of linkage. Given the ridiculous efficiency of a well lubricated conventional drivetrain, it's hard to consider a gearboxes ever being a comprehensively better product. Whilst it's still reasonable to fear snapping a derailleur, I tend to believe if an impact in that region is hard enough to break the non-replaceable section of the Transmission derailleur, perhaps it would damage the rear triangle of a gearbox equipped bike too? The only real difference is a small amount of clearance which is (arguably) not worth the many downsides of gearbox technology, which given the auto industry has been working on for the better half of forever, it's fair to assume we won't be seeing a radical improvement in gearbox tech, minus the gearbox's which mimic a conventional drivetrain, which again is just an adaptation of current technology.

Suspension

Suspension really seems to be the talking point of MTB tech innovation most and unsurprisingly many in this thread brought it up. Effectively, it does come down to rider preference but for many small-bump sensitivity (the main talking point with radically different suspension pieces such as Intend forks) is not always the be all end all. My own opinion is that custom tuning and high QC standards will go a lot further for improving a riders experience on the trail. I've ridden one inverted fork, and I've ridden a similar conventional fork with precisely burnished bushings and a damper tuned to a rider a similar weight/height/riding style to me, the result? Negligible difference when riding 90% or above, getting loose and having close calls, on those rides I genuinely had zero preference for the fork under me. Again this is all achievable with current tech, a reputable suspension tuner will resize bushings and fiddle with your damper for about half the cost of a new fork. That said, I'm still extremely curious about the new Push offering.

Wheels

There are inherent physical limitations of a 29 rim laced up to a hub with flanges the diameter of a pint, yet the wheels we ride today are damn strong. Depending on how much weight you can stomach (which is still negligible compared to only a few years ago), it's entirely possible to buy wheels capable of handling their intended purpose (including DH) for multiple seasons. Berd spokes have been the only intriguing development as of late, where can we go from stringing up insanely strong and light carbon hoops to intricately machined alloy hubs using some crazy polymer string material? I don't know, but again that's my argument, it seems there is little room for movement from where we already are. Hence approaching the peak mountain bike.

Durability/Reliability

I'm really talking about frames here, again there are very real limitations to what the materials aluminum or carbon fiber can offer. If the data is out there it would be amazing to plot it, but anecdotally the lighter frames have more warranty claims, no matter the fancy carbon layups they promise. Titanium is certainly an interesting proposition, Deviate's recent 3D printed prototypes are incredible (and hella sexy), yet if you do some research online you'll find plenty of stories about Ti frames breaking, it's another material with an elastic limit just like the others. How light we can get without seriously sacrificing durability seems to be at a.. well, peak. One way durability could be improved in my own opinion is simplicity, larger bearings, getting rid of thread-into-frame interfaces, getting rid of trunnion shocks + aluminum bolts, etc. These would all significantly improve durability/reliability of the average mountain bike far more than any material or crazy frame-design advancement bike companies promise.

What I'm getting at is that current technology can fuel seriously good, pretty much perfect bikes with a bit of commonsense engineering, rider-specific tuning (I didn't get into geo but this is of course another key area) and good QC. One final anecdotal tidbit I'd like to mention both from my own experience, talking to ex-pros and especially talking to freeriders is that as riding ability substantially improves, many seem to care far less about the nitty gritty details about the bike under them, with the exception of the marginal-gains racing world. If a bike is perfect for a given rider, that makes it a perfect bike. Please critique and criticise!

Brakes were a done deal more then a decade ago, Shimano clan knows this fact. 

Scott Gambler was better a decade ago. 

Coils are better.

I don't think we're done but certain parts are just companies trying to overtake one another, while fighting dirrty. 

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j0lsrud
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NO
8/13/2023 9:35am

QC is the place where things can get way better.

The number of failed products,  warranty claims and waste is to high. 

If the products where made better, prices "should" go down, less time of the bike, and mother earth would be happy.

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thejake
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Carnation, WA US
8/26/2023 3:40pm
j0lsrud wrote:
QC is the place where things can get way better. The number of failed products,  warranty claims and waste is to high.  If the products where...

QC is the place where things can get way better.

The number of failed products,  warranty claims and waste is to high. 

If the products where made better, prices "should" go down, less time of the bike, and mother earth would be happy.

But how will SRAM hit its sales numbers?  

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j0lsrud
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NO
8/28/2023 3:27am
thejake wrote:

But how will SRAM hit its sales numbers?  

The sales would likely be the same, or actually higher. Bevause when people have good experiences with brands/products they will recommend them and use it again.

And when increasing the QC, and therefore less warranty claims, they would make more money per product, and could potentially reduce the cost of the existing product. I can just talk for my self. But in my last 4 bikes, i have got a new frame (paint just fell of the carbon), new dropper post, 2 fork CSUs, new brakes, a new rear wheel x 2, and some small other parts.

So everything on the list is lost money for everyone involved, and with better QC and some adjustments to production/specs, the cost would be much much lower in total.

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funktekk
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Shawnee, KS US
8/28/2023 8:09am

All products solve a problem... some time that problem is "how do we sell more bikes", lol. 

Let's consider the Trial bike, probably the most ridden mountain bike. People are looking for something that is going to allow them to pedal up technical trails and not feel like they are risking their life on the way down. This category presents the challenge of what makes things better on the way down makes things more difficult on the way up. Some bikes try to do both equally well, some favor the uphill efficiency, and others favor the downhill fun factor. How do we make a bike with a raked out front end and small bump compliance that doesn't sponge up every pedal watt and wheelie out when things get steep on the up road?I think this is where on the fly suspension tuning will pay huge dividends. It will take time for the technology to become accepted and available enough for frame builders to design their products around this feature. If you've already sacrificed small bump compliance by designing for a pedal platform, then a electronic shock isn't going to make a difference.

 

8/28/2023 9:37am

The improvements in suspension damping that remain are marginal. The real room for suspension performance is in weight, friction, reliability, cost, etc, all things that have more to do with the chassis rather than shim stacks and electronically controlled orifices. 

In an ideal world, I would think something like a Lefty would be ideal for front shocks. Thats the best chassis out there- inverted, dual crown, torsionally stiffer than any traditional two-legged fork, lighter, etc. The downfall of the lefty was its proprietary nature, terrible QC, and mediocre damping. 

For rear shocks, a reduction in stiction in air cans would go a long way to improving performance. Related, and perhaps even more beneficial, would be a better way to equalize negative air pressure. The current port at the sag point makes a notch in the compression curve that can be felt, and many of us have had that dreaded rockshox sucked-down rear shock, where grit, rubber shreds, or just grease clogs the equalizing port. 

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