Sleeved vs Welded DT Swiss Rims

Better rim and hub with the 1700 wheels 

Yup, the 1700 series will for sure come with a ratchet freehub drive, besides being welded the X series of rims also use PHR washers instead of eyelets. Haven't used a non-X series rim, but given the price and how well they work, X series is the one to go for for me.

Depending on how you ride, how heavy you are and what wheelsize you're running it might make sense to get either the 1900 or the 1700, sell it off and have a 350/EX511 with 32 Jbend spokes built up. I ran XM1501s on my 29er and found that the front spokes started failing after two seasons. The rear didn't hold up all that well either, 32 spokes on a 240s/EX511 combo fares better (the rim is a bit stronger as well). DT's system wheels all use 28 straight pull spokes.

DT Swiss employee here:

We have moved out 1900 level wheels to Ratchet LN. Basically this is our ratchet system used in the 350 and old 240S hubs. The difference is the location of the hub seal. This allowed us to offer the system as an upgrade for the 3 pawl hubs. Double check before buying if you are getting LN or 3 pawl as there are some still in the market that are 3 pawl. It is upgradable. The LN hubs come with 18t ratchets but are upgradable to 36T or 54T. 

1900 level wheels use sleeved rims and 370 hubs. 370 hub is heavier than 350.

1700 level wheels use welded rims and 350 hubs with 36t ratchets. These are my personal favorite wheelset. 

1501 level wheels are carbon rims with 240 hubs. We do also offer some OE customers the alloy 1501 which is a welded alloy rim with a 240 hub. 

E/EX series are enduro wheels, M and XM series are all mountain. Same naming structure applies to our rims. 

Personally I will always go for the 1700 level wheels. 

@Simcik can you comment on why DT Swiss uses aluminum nipples on wheelsets (at least on OEM EX1700 that came on my 2022 Transition Patrol)? Love the value and quality of the product, it's taken me close to 2 years to start to beat up the rear rim enough to be a concern, but finding it hard to work with spoke tension with those nipples and shop is commenting the same thing. Unfortunately I have no wheel building experience so would have to pay them to replace to brass.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. First off, nice choice of bike, the Patrol is a sweet bike!

There are a few reasons why alloy nipples. The biggest driver is frankly weight. System wheel weight is often discussed and using an alloy nipple saves total weight and rotational weight. This lighter weight demand comes from consumers, OEMs, and shops. Using the Squorx end of the nipple or a 4 sided spoke wrench would be advisable for getting better purchase on the nipple for tensioning as opposed to the Park black spoke wrench. We hand-build every wheel we ship and build/tension wheels from the Squorx side. 

Can confirm, using an original DT Swiss nipple wrench (grabs 3 of 4 corners) and/or a Squorx driver gives much better results than using other types of nipple wrenches. The minus with the squorx interface is that it's not really applicable for a quick tune up as you need to remove the tyre and the tubeless tape...

I have a dumb question: Do sleeved rims have trouble holding air in a modern tubeless setup? Back in the day of hodgepodge tubeless setups, only welded rims would hold air. For instance, Jason Schroeder (Vital contributor) told us on the podcast that he used to use JB weld on his rim joint to hold air for racing. Do modern sleeved tubeless rims have the same problem, or has that been solved?

They can if they're not built or set up perfectly. It's entirely possible that there can be a bit too much of a gap in the joint and that can of course be made worse by a hard impact on the joint itself. Some brands will tell you that the rim tape and tire should prevent sealant/air from ever being able to leak out of the joint but it happens occasionally.

Back in 2015 I used superglue on the sleeved joint of a Giant rim to make it hold air. Dab the superglue on the joint, use a fine sandpaper to smooth it out, apply tubeless tape. I'd do the same on a new sleeved rim today as well if it was me.

Good wrench and Lots of lube before you turn anything. 

Also... With modern MTB wheels more and more closely resembling road wheels with lighter materials and lower spoke counts, aren't we moving toward a future where a wheel detensioning/tensioning jig is necessary to properly work on them? At The Spokesman in Santa Cruz where I worked like, twenty years ago or so, they had a set up where you could mount a wheel and detention it by leverage to turn a delicate nipple. It was from some high end road company that had some crazy twelve spoke wheels. I can't remember who.

Never heard of one of those detensioning jigs. That makes a ton of sense for their high-stress true jobs with high tension and compromised nipples. I've done that by hand in the past by grabbing the other spokes around it to relax tension on the spoke I'm working on, but it would be nice to have a jig instead.

On the other hand, wouldn't it be cool if wheels weighed slightly more but were more easy to work on? Oh wait, they can be that right now with 32 spokes and brass nipples. And frankly, why not 36? I would happily ride 36 spoke alloy 29" wheels if it was an option, especially with double or triple butted spokes. When you're bashing a big diameter aluminum rim through rocks, more spokes is going to minimize the effects of flat spots and dents on the wheel's stiffness, strength, spoke tension, and true. Seeing as carbon wheels got heavier and nearly match the weight of their aluminum counterparts now, maybe there's an opportunity to make aluminum wheels weigh a little more and buy some extra durability /endgripe

I'm long since out of the market, but I've never built Myself anything less than 32 spoke straight gauge 2.0 with brass nipples. I'm 6' 7" 200lbs so I never messed with butted spokes.

My brain says it was a Look tool, but I don't know if they ever made wheels. You would mount the wheel horizontally/flat on this box and it either pushed or pulled on the axle to reduce the tension on half the spokes. 

If you're the kind of person who only tapes the rim well, then yeah, air would leak out of the seam, and you'd have to glue or *shudders* JB Weld it. 

It's been a while since I've had to deal with one of those philistines, thankfully. 

As for spoke wrenches, these have become a favorite of mine.

Running straight 2.0 spokes doesn't give much advantage as the inner diameter inside the thread is less than 2 mm and is thus the weakest point. I always run 1.8 butted spokes for this reason (2.0 at the thread and head). We've discussed this part in the wheelsets topic too.

As for nipples, I run aluminium ones as DT welded rims come with them in the box and I've been running DT Swiss wheels (rims, spokes and hubs) for the past 8 years now with little incentive to change things up.

And yeah, considering the experience I've had with 28 and 32 spoked 29" wheels, it would make more sense to go 36 than 28 if you want to change things up from a 32 spoke wheel.

I don't know who cares about this, but I'm putting it out here:

I am 1.91 m / 6'3” and weigh 95-100 kg. I am riding 29” wheels with DT Swiss EX511, Sapim D-Light spokes and alloy Sapim Polyax nipples since 4 years now. Hope hubs, J-bend spokes and 32, because I feel I need those extra 4 spokes and 32 stuff is just easier to find, if something gets broken.I am running a CushCore in the rear and like to believe I am a rather smooth rider. I have had minor issues with this set-up. Had to true the rear every now and then and spokes broke in the rear, but I think it is normal. Never had an issue with nipples. I never used the stock DT ones that come with the rims, as they need that extra wrench and it goes against my belief to have stuff that is as easy to find as possible.

I now have a fresh FR541 / D-Light with alloy nipples / 240 wheel with 32 J-bend spokes, as I ho believe the hype with that rims. It feels excellent until now.

Never had leaking air problems, but I only used welded rims and double tape them.

That's all.
Mx

Speaking of extra wrenches, how do you tighten the Polyax nipples once the spoke pokes through the nipple on the underside? A standard flatheaded srewdriver is out of the question.

Yeah you need a new tool for squorx nipples, but in my experience it makes life easier, not harder. And it's only applicable for the initial build anyway, like I mentioned.

Is that Simcik as Nick Simcik, rampage rider back in the days? 

That's me. I rode one Rampage (didn't make finals), so I wouldn't consider myself a Rampage rider  

Partial explanation of my affinity for Transitions

Alu nips: I've had great luck when I build my own, not so much on the wheels that come with a bike. Quality nips and good spoke prep seem to be the key. I prefer boiled linseed oil (don't burn down your house!) which keeps them locked and also able to turn when a true or rim swap is needed. It's magic. It's also dangerous due to the spontaneous combustion thing, if I ran a shop I wouldn't allow it to be used.