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While that might be true for that one Worldcup race in North America (where the men would not even fill up a 64 roster), it is utterly wrong for the races in Europe.
Have a look at last year's numbers - and then repeat in front of a mirror "4Cross is dying":
Worldcup Rd. 1, Houffalize/BEL: 130 starters in qualification, 64 in the finals
Worldcup Rd. 2, Maribor/SLO: 96 starters in qualification, 64 in the finals
Worldcup Rd. 3, Ft. William/SCO: 64 starters in qualification, 63 in the finals
Worldcup Rd. 4, Leogang/AUT: 84 starters in qualification, 64 in the finals
Worldcup Rd. 5, Val di Sole/ITA: 82 starters in qualification, 64 in the finals
Worldcup Finals, Windham/USA: 50 starters in qualification, 32 in the finals
(by the way, it's been a pain to find these numbers - UCI would be welcome to keep the excellent Worldcup result service on its server even after the season has finished)
So, don't argue against 4cross in general, rather start to think about how to improve/boost it in Northern America.
After all, you're gonna have a hard time to convince Europeans of the "fact" (rather an opinion based on a perspective limited to one continent) that this sport is dying.
Looking at the numbers above (and at the numbers of some national 4cross series), it looks pretty much alive to me.
Unfortunately, it takes quite a bit of effort and know-how (and time and equipment) to build (and maintain) a proper course. It is also very possible to build stuff that is fun and safe (relatively) for all abilities if you know what you're doing. If somebody is serious about putting in a real course that people will want to ride, get real builders to do it.
Hopefully, with bike parks popping up on every street corner these days, and with the ability to have permanent courses, the folks in charge will have someone that knows what they're doing building the stuff. If kids have an opportunity to ride 4x-ish type stuff on a regular basis, they'll be more likely to go out and race.
Slalom still rules though. Screw 4x. One foot on the ground, backward falling gate!!! (makes you run flat pedals) O.K, now I'm getting crazy ...
That said, I'm really jealous of the infrastructure you guys have over there. Racing on its own 'MTB' terms or not, most of the courses I've seen look like a blast. I'd just like to see a setup where hardtails are undeniably slower. Just because it's got 26" wheels, it's not a mountain bike.
I'll bet you can think of a million trails where a 4" travel bike is loads faster than a hardtail and way faster than a dh bike. I know I can. That's just what I've always envisioned as creating something unique separate from bmx, and separate from dh but certainly drawing heavily from both. You don't have to agree.
There's already a category where superlight fragile hardtails have their place anyway. It's called pro xc racing.
I am just saying, let all of the different types of racing co exist, snowboard half pipe riders don't complain about snowboard freestyle not being a sport, it's just different. Are we as Americans backing off of 4x because we don't have any real big contenders internationally? This is the time to support it, and rebuild our talent. Look at the Czech, they have really strong 4x series, and are putting out some great riders. Prokop used to be the main guy from the Czech, now there are riders like the reigning world champ, Slavik, Tatarkovic, and Mechura. The Czech have 7 4x riders in the top 20 in WC points overall. We used to have a prominent program, if half the energy spent arguing in forums about it was spent organizing and planning some races, we could be right back in the top standings internationally.
I would like to thank my sponsors KHS, Marzocchi, Kenda, IXS, Shimano, Gamut, KMC, Velo, ODI, Leatt, and Cane Creek for supporting me in my 4x efforts for the 2011 season.
-Blake Carney
PS Disregard the quote, I can't get it out of my post.
From a 10 year pro perspective ill break it down into simple and easy to understand points.....
- 4X is not as rad as DH, never was, never will be, but its got its own following, and when guys who dont like it, publicly bring it down for whatever reason, then your just saying nothing more than " Im no good at this...therefore, its not me, im rad!...the sport must suck!"
- When 4X tracks were at their WORST....2003-2005ish, nobody in the US complained , because America was on top....Carter, Lopes, King, Powell, Kintner, llanes etc.... and then there were no US DH hopes, now the US has none of these names in 4X and has the likes of Gwinny in DH. Coincidence...i Think not! Which leads me towards Blakes previous post of why is America trying to kill 4X? Which was right on the Money!
- i dont know why americans talk about the sport being dead...wake up guys, America isnt the be all and end all of gravity MTB, sure its struggling in the US, but as also mentioned earlier...Id say Europe is the hub of Gravity and for that matter all MTB nowdays.
- gates.... it was mentioned earlier about having a fair gate start.... WHAT THE F**k!!! the current gate is a system that drops at the exact same time for all 4 riders, which you can go and practice at any local BMX track atleast a couple night a week. if you cant afford your own system....it doesnt get any more fair than that! What do you want...a handicap system to disadvantage the guys that can accelerate fast?
- I agree that UCI needs to listen more to the riders. to me 4X SHOULD be all about 40-50ft gaps, natural rocks and roots,all things MTB, but that cant always happen at some venues, and the sport shouldnt be bagged out because of it. Variety is the key to anything successful!
- 4X being too much like BMX. Sure there are comparisons, but if you think the skills directly relate you are very misguided! Ive seen so many top BMX pros over the years thinking they are going to kill it but it just wasnt the case at 4X. Mike day is a perfect example, the most skilled guy at BMX, but his cornering skills on a 4X bike were terrible, add to that Sam Willoughby, Luke Madill, Randy Stumpfhauser, Donny Robinson. All guys that have tried 4X for more than a few races, and went well, but were coming up well short on what was needed to be at the very top on the variety of courses.
Dual Slalom. I love it! I already cant wait for Sea Otter Slalom this year, ive been wanting to win that thing for years! but if you think its going to save gated racing you are very Wrong! News Flash. DS already has been a World cup discipline and it failed! lack of interest, both media and public. Right now you guys think it will be great because its different, and the fastest rider wins! But I can tell you that after seeing a few races you will be thinking. Seen that....no contact, no real drama....BORING!l
- I think my dad summed it up really well in a conversation one day.... and trust me, my dad is the first to call out something that he thinks sucks! DH is full of excuses.....people have their race "oh man, I blew up at that right hander, a crashed in the rock garden" they can go to bed at night, honestly believing their excuses and feeling better about themselves, even if the clock says they suck! where as 4X is a head to head display of who is better at racing against others and getting across the line first. If you got beat, everyone sees it, and a lot of people cant deal with that. Human Nature is not to admit defeat, so as a defense they blame the sport, not themselves. That to me is what attracted me to 4X, something that undeniably says. you were faster than that guy from point A to B! Doesnt matter if you beat him out of the gate and he couldnt pass, you knew coming in, what you needed to do to win, and if youre serious you can prepare according to that. If your not serious, then why are you complaining about anything?
- At the end of the day you can have the fastest gate and first straight in the world, but if you dont have the skills on the track, in 4X, youll get eaten up. you ever seen vidoes of joost Wichman, Michal Prokop, Tomas Slavik, Roger Rinderknecht, Romain Saladini, Kamil Tatarkovic, Johannes Fischbach etc...etc.... these guys can ride bikes! Top BMX guys will no doubt get spat out without atleast a year or 2 of non stop time on MTB's, so the comparison is crazy!
Pretty sick to death of this conversation, but I pitch in when I hear people going on about crap like they have been around and know what they are on about. When in reality they have no interest in the bigger picture, and they just talk about what would suit them the most. in a word....Selfish!
And watch this.
I hereby state as an american mountainbiker the 4x kicks dual slalom in the pussy. :D SOOOOO much more fun to watch and if the courses were here, I'd probably race. All I can say is that I wish I was in the czech, cuz those tracks look soooo fun.
PLEASE READ
There is a former MTN side golf course that did not survive (few good reasons)
Here is my vision
A MTN SIDE RAYS MTB STYLE SLOPE STYLE/RACE FACILTY
I have seen some of Lee's (form LeeLikesBikes.com) designs for small parks
I picture a few pumptracks, a jump park with multiple lines for different skill levels (KEY COMPONENT-DIFFERENT SKILLS), a few AMish XC trails, and of course BOTH a DS AND 4X courses that are permanent and hold a season long series working with nearby states races to avoid overlapping. This location does get snow so for a few months racing will be prohibited but about 8-9 months are possible. Not only racing events can be held here but also DJ events and ride events for manufactures product releases, this location is already visited by many bikers at surrounding areas and new tails are being built some legal and some not...this type of facility would provide a lot for locals and events!!!
JARED GRAVES...perfectly said and said from a pro. One thing I liked you said is - """I agree that UCI needs to listen more to the riders. to me 4X SHOULD be all about 40-50ft gaps, natural rocks and roots,all things MTB, but that cant always happen at some venues, and the sport shouldnt be bagged out because of it. Variety is the key to anything successful!"""
Yeah its exciting to see you fly in the air but as I mentioned most of those races I watched online with you racing was over by the time you got to those big jumps (ok yours were usually over at the gate...LOL) BUT it needs to support up and coming racers (BMX uses Pro lines is a good option...HINT) as well as the big guns. But keep the MTN in it as much as reasonably possible with the facility.
I wish I could explain the decrease in interest in gated racing in general though. Everyone talks about how much they love it, and then no one shows up. I remember early 2000s when people would go to Plattekill and race duel on Saturday, then downhill on Sunday. The last 4X race I did was at Mount Snow two years ago, we combined all Cat-1 age classes (no pro class), and we still started in the semifinals. I don't know why that faded over the years, but the only "gated" event with any real attendence this year was the US Open, and their GS isn't as exciting as it could/should be without the head to head competition. For one thing, people seem a lot more reluctant to give up their DH practice time. Saturday night 4X/slalom under the lights?
Everyone complains about 4X and slalom, but does nothing to support it. If you want it, go to races. No one is going to invest the time and money in gated racing in the US for ten people to show up.
And yes, that Czech course is sick. Someone build that?
I agree with all of your points for the most part but I need to point out one slight error.
DS was never a World Cup or World Championship discipline.
Dual was. Eurosport wasn't interested in DS. Too much time for the half hour to hour they had allocated for the live broadcast. Hard to understand when channel surfing.
There were DS races run at many WC races but they were unofficial as there wasn't any UCI category to shoehorn the races into. I know that Norba and the BCF had sections in their rulebooks defining DS but few other federations did, especially not in Eastern Europe. The DS races were promoted for the spectators on the ground. We can all agree that even if you don't understand what is going on a screaming announcer and roost will get people stoked if it's 5 feet in front of them.
You can smell the passion. Especially Orland Martinez's passion. Spectator turnout on the ground was immense for DS.
It was a fantastic evening sideshow that sold beer and whetted the appetite for DH and cost nothing to promote.
Dual took most of the problems we see with poorly designed 4x tracks and magnified it. 4x is certainly a step up from Dual. A good Dual course is also still outside of the budget of U.S. promoters.
I choose to rant about U.S. racing. I live here and I haven't renewed my UCI license in 4 years. Even if I did I'd have to fly to Europe to race 4x. There isn't any racing in Canada or Mexico.
I think your dad is spot on. Here in the U.S. specifically there are a lot of insecure people in DH racing who will get exposed as chumps and sissies when they race head to head out in the open.
In the Northeastern U.S. where we have the highest density and largest turnouts of any DH races in the U.S. 4x races on decent tracks run concurrently with DH races have failed due to rider participation. With such poor turnout the bmx racers who have turned out turn up one time, get bummed out, and don't come back.
It's a shitty situation.
I blame chairlifts, hype and fat kids.
It would be amazing if you could use some of your muscle/prestige to help pressure some of your sponsors into helping to resources for advocacy to put together a few one-off participant based 4x events events in the U.S.
Just like there is a 4X Alliance of elite riders on the world stage there to needs to be a group of passionate people working behind the scenes to help steer and advance the sport here in the U.S... More than anything we need advocacy not promotional dollars.
The Conroys and Darner have done a great job making 4x happen in the Mountain States. They've made it happen because they have a palpable passion for the sport and the resources to see that through.
There is only one Bigfoot Productions unfortunately.
Help us dude!
As a tiny little bike maker I buy stuff directly from many of your sponsors. The people who work at Shimano, Fox, E.13, Xfusion, Mavic, Kenda, Pedros and pretty much every other company with a toe in gravity racing or open minds to exhortation love gated racing- We talk about it all the time.
The people in the Industry love gated racing(most of them talk about DS as the appropriate gateway to reintroduce 4x in North America).
The people in the U.S. media love gated racing(they too see DS as the most viable gateway to building 4x here).
The (dozen) racers who have had positive experiences love gated racing.
Tons of BMX racers come up to me at the track and ask where they can race 4x.
Their parents sure as hell ask me where they can race.
"Retired" guys like EC and Lopes love gated racing. They are still out there working hard making money. They have new commitments that take up their time and resources.
Marketing and Product Manager guys at GT, Cannondale, Intense and Mongoose love gated racing and have historical relationships as racers and sponsors in DS. There is a person or two at just about every company that will talk your ear off about the whys and hows of the failures of DS and 4x racing in this country.
Mountain owners love gated racing- the longer people stay at the mountain the more burgers and beer they buy.
None of these bike and component makers can justify allocating serious marketing dollars to their bosses to a sport that doesn't exist.
They want to. They really do. 4x bikes are cheap and already sell fairly well as Street/Park/Trails bikes.
Promoters bleed money in this country when they try to promote gated events, especially 4x.
There is room for more than one gated discipline and we need to start somewhere cheap to get people hooked. That's where other events like DS and made-up fun shit come into play. New riders need to start somewhere. Events need to be affordable to promote and accessible to amateurs. Not necessarily beginners, but kids who are backflipping in the park and finishing mid-pack in DH races. An XC racer who can dirt jump can even make a great gated racer.
There is a big gap here that seems insurmountable to many people- Organization.
As the most visible actively-racing 4x racer in the world and one who has a long history of racing in the U.S. for American sponsors you might be one of the people best positioned to put pressure on this. Carter tried for years but one strong voice isn't enough.
Yes, 4x is doing fine in Europe. If it was viable we'd love to race it here too.
We could clearly pay anyone from Ebbot to Saxena to build some sick track and offer start money for "Real" 4x pros to fly across the Atlantic to pad start numbers of an event like that. It would need Redbull-level budget to happen right and a venue that can host a permanent track that they were willing to subsidize to make any sense at all.Without a lot of outside capital and a very professional full time promoter an event like that won't happen. That is a fucking pipe dream. A waste of resources for the health of the Sport not just a one-off promotional event.
Promoting high-level events/throwing marketing dollars isn't going to do much. We need to create the sport first. Kids need to get stoked on racing out of gates, over jumps and around flags. To your average North American 14 year old 4x is something they've only seen on Mpora or FreeCaster. It's raced by you, 3 British guys and 30 people with names they can't pronounce from countries they can't even find on a map.
From the grassroots, from the top down and laterally between BMX and MTB racers the sport in the U.S. needs help and inspiration. What it will take is someone or a group in the middle between riders, sponsors and promoters agitating and advocating to make gated racing happen on this continent.
Do us a favor dude. Help us find someone to lead the charge. Someone with spare time!
Thanks!
BEST IDEA EVER.
I mean I want to be banging bars in Austin, Texas in December in front of 5,000 fans under the lights.
Ok end rants.
That being said, when the snow melts, who wants to have an epic four cross on an open hill? Everyone bring a shovel, and we'll build a course in an hour, then race it...nice and choppy.
I'm actually kinda serious...
And when was slalom on the world cup series? I went to every world cup from 90'-2004 and don't remember it ever being a series. That being said, it wouldn't 'save' that discipline as you said. And finally, not that you need my endorsement, but you are spot on in everything you said and was good to read...again (like you said, topic has been beaten to death more than any other topic in sport).
Slalom proves the better race... not who can cut someone off the best which you see alot now days...
But yea the old Norba slalom races with a few doubles and nice banked and flat turns needs to come back
I think we should turn this thread into a "How to make 4x tracks sweet" then someone print it off and mail it to everyone involved in the UCI.
Here are my suggestions:
Small wooded section (stated above)
Big Doubles
MORE ROCKS
roots roots and more roots
drops. (cough from the cough start gate)
a wall ride turn would be sweet, like the one in Kamloops. A big left hander.
throw in some pits, sharks and fog machines and 4x races would be top notch.
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