Should There Be a 29er DH Class and 27.5 DH Class at World Cups?

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29er
Downhill
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UCI Mountain Bike World Cup
Lourdes, France
Greg Minnaar
Loic Bruni
jeff.brines
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jeff.brines 6/9/2017 10:24am
6/9/2017 10:24am
JayDawger wrote:
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
Be fun to poll the Vital audience as to the cool factor of 29" DH bikes. To me, they are super rad. Skinsuits? Not so much.

At its core, a lot of this debate comes down to what people think is cool, some of this based off real world experience, some based off perception, some based off "internet theory" (which in some cases, mostly thanks to Turman, we've shown holds no water).

sspomer
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sspomer 6/11/2017 11:10am
6/11/2017 11:10am
gwin's winning yt
http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/WINNING-BIKE-Aaron-Gwins-YT-TUE…

i freaking LOVE the fact he smoked the big wheels. i personally think unless you're a superhuman like gwin, big wheels are going to give you the advantage everytime but the fact that gwin put 1.4 seconds into that run of loris is so freaking rad. is it like rat's last win on 26 at leogang? hahaha
tmano2
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tmano2 6/11/2017 12:44pm
6/11/2017 12:44pm
sspomer wrote:
gwin's winning yt http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/WINNING-BIKE-Aaron-Gwins-YT-TUES,11090/WINNING-BIKE-Aaron-Gwins-YT-TUES-Leogang-Smasher,115715/sspomer,2 i freaking LOVE the fact he smoked the big wheels. i personally think unless you're a superhuman like gwin, big wheels are...
gwin's winning yt
http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/WINNING-BIKE-Aaron-Gwins-YT-TUE…

i freaking LOVE the fact he smoked the big wheels. i personally think unless you're a superhuman like gwin, big wheels are going to give you the advantage everytime but the fact that gwin put 1.4 seconds into that run of loris is so freaking rad. is it like rat's last win on 26 at leogang? hahaha
i personaly am not a big fan of gwin, and am in fact considering a 29 as my next enduro bike

but i was like i want vergier to have his first win, but i also want a27.5 to win it to prove that i can be faster, hard choice ahah
Pedal4life
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Pedal4life 6/11/2017 1:06pm
6/11/2017 1:06pm
We have enough classes already with the U classes, Elite & Masters and only God knows what else there is already definitely enough, but what we do need is just some simple rules that make the teams and rider's race the bike they qualified on and with the same size wheel that they used to qualify on as well.

I had given thought to maybe making them race on what they qualified on but with weather variables and such that won't be possible if it was me as the team manager I'd show up at the races with both bikes ready to rock then pick the best sled for the job that day.

I'm a speed junky love to go fast across the water having the right tool makes all the difference yes I want a 29er DH bike but I'd want a 27.5 bike as well but for now lets just sit back enjoy the racing and see how this race season turns out.

And best wishes & a speedy recovery to Remi Thirion
JayDawger
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JayDawger 6/11/2017 1:14pm
6/11/2017 1:14pm
JayDawger wrote:
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
jeff.brines wrote:
Be fun to poll the Vital audience as to the cool factor of 29" DH bikes. To me, they are super rad. Skinsuits? Not so much...
Be fun to poll the Vital audience as to the cool factor of 29" DH bikes. To me, they are super rad. Skinsuits? Not so much.

At its core, a lot of this debate comes down to what people think is cool, some of this based off real world experience, some based off perception, some based off "internet theory" (which in some cases, mostly thanks to Turman, we've shown holds no water).

No perception bro. The 29ers look lame on track and I'm not seeing the speed advantage.
Splayleg
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Splayleg 6/11/2017 1:43pm
6/11/2017 1:43pm
well shit if you aren't seeing the speed advantage then cancel 29ers because you I'm sure that's what the top riders are worried about and how you think they look on track. That's a big one
Big Bird
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Big Bird 6/11/2017 5:08pm
6/11/2017 5:08pm
I saw no boringness. All riders on both wheel sizes went as fast and ragged as they could. One size won. Another shows yet more promise. Neither were boring.
Verbl Kint
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Verbl Kint 6/12/2017 12:04am
6/12/2017 12:04am Edited Date/Time 6/12/2017 12:05am
Jure Zabjek (was in the hot seat for a while, finished 12th) could use a 29er. Claudio thought he was riding a 26. Laughing

Congrats, Jure! Best finish yet at a World Cup!
DubC
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DubC 6/12/2017 11:02am
6/12/2017 11:02am
JayDawger wrote:
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
jeff.brines wrote:
Be fun to poll the Vital audience as to the cool factor of 29" DH bikes. To me, they are super rad. Skinsuits? Not so much...
Be fun to poll the Vital audience as to the cool factor of 29" DH bikes. To me, they are super rad. Skinsuits? Not so much.

At its core, a lot of this debate comes down to what people think is cool, some of this based off real world experience, some based off perception, some based off "internet theory" (which in some cases, mostly thanks to Turman, we've shown holds no water).

JayDawger wrote:
No perception bro. The 29ers look lame on track and I'm not seeing the speed advantage.
This "looks lame" thing is such BS IMO....and slippery slope. Should riders still be on V-brakes..er... canti's....er...drum brakes? Ft sus only ...er fully ridgid? That would look way more loose. What about modern geo? Longer front centers create way more stability. Should that be banned because it makes riders look more in control?

Maybe instead of 29 and 27.5, there should be "open class" and then a "not lame looking class" for all the wheel size whiners? Open class runs disc, full sus, modern geo with fancy suspension refined using telemetry data and whatever wheelsize they think (or have tested out to know) is fastest. Then all the wheel size whiners can watch the "not lame looking class" guys on fully rigid hardtails, with narrow handle bars and kickback drum brakes cause you know...that will look "super sick and loose bro".
jeff.brines
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jeff.brines 6/12/2017 11:11am
6/12/2017 11:11am
DubC wrote:
This "looks lame" thing is such BS IMO....and slippery slope. Should riders still be on V-brakes..er... canti's....er...drum brakes? Ft sus only ...er fully ridgid? That would...
This "looks lame" thing is such BS IMO....and slippery slope. Should riders still be on V-brakes..er... canti's....er...drum brakes? Ft sus only ...er fully ridgid? That would look way more loose. What about modern geo? Longer front centers create way more stability. Should that be banned because it makes riders look more in control?

Maybe instead of 29 and 27.5, there should be "open class" and then a "not lame looking class" for all the wheel size whiners? Open class runs disc, full sus, modern geo with fancy suspension refined using telemetry data and whatever wheelsize they think (or have tested out to know) is fastest. Then all the wheel size whiners can watch the "not lame looking class" guys on fully rigid hardtails, with narrow handle bars and kickback drum brakes cause you know...that will look "super sick and loose bro".
Reminds me of baja. Some people just want to see Class 11 (VW bug) just ragged, loose and not going nearly as fast, others want to see trophy trucks, arguably far more in control at much higher speeds. Unlimited technology vs highly limited technology.

Not taking anything away from the Bugs but I know what I want to watch...
JayDawger
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JayDawger 6/12/2017 11:14am
6/12/2017 11:14am
DubC wrote:
This "looks lame" thing is such BS IMO....and slippery slope. Should riders still be on V-brakes..er... canti's....er...drum brakes? Ft sus only ...er fully ridgid? That would...
This "looks lame" thing is such BS IMO....and slippery slope. Should riders still be on V-brakes..er... canti's....er...drum brakes? Ft sus only ...er fully ridgid? That would look way more loose. What about modern geo? Longer front centers create way more stability. Should that be banned because it makes riders look more in control?

Maybe instead of 29 and 27.5, there should be "open class" and then a "not lame looking class" for all the wheel size whiners? Open class runs disc, full sus, modern geo with fancy suspension refined using telemetry data and whatever wheelsize they think (or have tested out to know) is fastest. Then all the wheel size whiners can watch the "not lame looking class" guys on fully rigid hardtails, with narrow handle bars and kickback drum brakes cause you know...that will look "super sick and loose bro".
jeff.brines wrote:
Reminds me of baja. Some people just want to see Class 11 (VW bug) just ragged, loose and not going nearly as fast, others want to...
Reminds me of baja. Some people just want to see Class 11 (VW bug) just ragged, loose and not going nearly as fast, others want to see trophy trucks, arguably far more in control at much higher speeds. Unlimited technology vs highly limited technology.

Not taking anything away from the Bugs but I know what I want to watch...
Not related to the 29ers as the big wheels are not going faster
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 6/12/2017 6:53pm
6/12/2017 6:53pm
JayDawger wrote:
Not related to the 29ers as the big wheels are not going faster
6 29ers were in the top 14. Statistically speaking, the average 29er placed higher than the average 27.5 wheeled bike.
1994canucks 6/12/2017 8:08pm
6/12/2017 8:08pm
JayDawger wrote:
Not related to the 29ers as the big wheels are not going faster
matmattmatthew wrote:
6 29ers were in the top 14. Statistically speaking, the average 29er placed higher than the average 27.5 wheeled bike.
Did you include juniors? Finn won on 27.5.
nickb01
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nickb01 6/12/2017 9:00pm
6/12/2017 9:00pm
JayDawger wrote:
Not related to the 29ers as the big wheels are not going faster
matmattmatthew wrote:
6 29ers were in the top 14. Statistically speaking, the average 29er placed higher than the average 27.5 wheeled bike.
Of course they placed higher, 29ers are only an option for factory sponsored riders who should be near the top anyway. Everyone else has a 27.5, including all the riders who are not likely to place highly. Statistically speaking 27.5 has won more races this year.
Oz_Taylor
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Oz_Taylor 6/12/2017 11:30pm
6/12/2017 11:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2017 11:31pm
It seems to me that the bigger wheels didn't offer any distinct advantage at Leogang. The track was too smooth with bermed corners for the large wheels to make any difference. Any benefits from increased grip, momentum and rollover were negated by a slower accelerating wheel.

You could argue that the 29ers are more composed (they certainly look it), allowing the riders on those bikes to ride closer to their limit. The only rider who looks capable of beating the other top guys on 29ers is Gwin. He probably would have challenged Greg for the win at Fort William if it wasn't for that mistake...was he pushing too hard?

Who knows, but it's cool to see that the big wheels aren't dominating. Next up Andorra. Should be interesting.
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 6/13/2017 6:16am
6/13/2017 6:16am
1994canucks wrote:
Did you include juniors? Finn won on 27.5.
No, I'm just talking about elite Men. As far as I know, the only person riding a 29er that isn't in Elite Men is Myriam Nicole.

I think the Wheel War is creating a fun commentary for this year's racing. After 3 races, we can basically call Lourdes an outlier where weather played a bigger factor than Wheel size. Greg won at fort William where he dominates, and likely would have won on a 27.5 bike just the same. And Gwin won at Leogang where he dominates, and likely would have won on a 26" bike.

So are we any closer to having resolution for the Wheel debate? Doesn't seem like it, and I'm OK with that.
boom
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boom 6/13/2017 9:49pm
6/13/2017 9:49pm
How do you know that 29ers were not any faster in this race? There is no way to know this based on the race results, only by doing individual timed testing like Santa Cruz did. Just because Gwin beat a 29er by 1.5 seconds that doesn't mean 29 has no advantage. Have you not seen the gaps Gwin has won by in the past? Possibly he would have won by 3 seconds on a 29er. Oh... "well that's only 1.5 seconds faster than a 27.5, big deal." Yes it is a big deal in a RACE where you had so many riders on the same seconds. There are ten riders on 3:15:xx.
Oz_Taylor
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Oz_Taylor 6/14/2017 12:50am
6/14/2017 12:50am
boom wrote:
How do you know that 29ers were not any faster in this race? There is no way to know this based on the race results, only...
How do you know that 29ers were not any faster in this race? There is no way to know this based on the race results, only by doing individual timed testing like Santa Cruz did. Just because Gwin beat a 29er by 1.5 seconds that doesn't mean 29 has no advantage. Have you not seen the gaps Gwin has won by in the past? Possibly he would have won by 3 seconds on a 29er. Oh... "well that's only 1.5 seconds faster than a 27.5, big deal." Yes it is a big deal in a RACE where you had so many riders on the same seconds. There are ten riders on 3:15:xx.
I agree it's hard to make judgements by looking at the results because it is down to individual performances but we can compare the result to last years race. The same guys finished first and second and the rest of the top 10 is made up of the usual names. Whilst there is no evidence to suggest that the 29ers weren't faster, there is no evidence to suggest that the 29ers were faster.

The racing is always close at Leogang but to my relief, the fastest riders are still the fastest riders.
sundaydoug
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sundaydoug 6/14/2017 6:59am
6/14/2017 6:59am
Did anyone else notice Claudio's comment about Brendan mentioning that he needed to brake considerably earlier on the 29" wheel? He also mentioned that one of the teams had done testing and found that their bike had a higher stop speed when fitted with 27.5" wheels when compared with 29", but I forget which team it was. I thought that was interesting.

The Bergamont team was also back on the 27.5" at Leogang after using 29" at Fort Bill, but there could be a lot of reasons for that. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.
matmattmatthew
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matmattmatthew 6/14/2017 7:04am
6/14/2017 7:04am
sundaydoug wrote:
Did anyone else notice Claudio's comment about Brendan mentioning that he needed to brake considerably earlier on the 29" wheel? He also mentioned that one of...
Did anyone else notice Claudio's comment about Brendan mentioning that he needed to brake considerably earlier on the 29" wheel? He also mentioned that one of the teams had done testing and found that their bike had a higher stop speed when fitted with 27.5" wheels when compared with 29", but I forget which team it was. I thought that was interesting.

The Bergamont team was also back on the 27.5" at Leogang after using 29" at Fort Bill, but there could be a lot of reasons for that. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.
I thought I read somewhere that Bergamont started practice at fort bill on 29" wheels but switched back to 27.5" because they didn't have enough spare 29" rims and tires to last through practice and finals.

I think they were on the same frames, just swapping wheels.

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