Should There Be a 29er DH Class and 27.5 DH Class at World Cups?

Verbl Kint
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4/30/2017 8:14am
The difference between now and when Jeff Steber built that prototype is night and day. Boost wasn't there yet, there wasn't a fork designed specifically to be a 29" dh fork (the Dorado on the photo is for a 26" wheel), 29" tires with a DH casing weren't available either, and most importantly, designers haven't nailed down the proper geos yet for long travel 29ers.

That's all changed now, of course. I bet at least 3 more teams will be rocking 29er DH bikes before the season ends. Next year we'll probably see all the teams on it.

It's not hype. It really is faster.
adamdigby
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4/30/2017 8:29am
Where are people getting this 9 month to production rule from? I've read through the rule book and it say in Article 1.3.007 that products must be in production (meaning for sale to public, even it is only a single unit for sale) no later than 12 months after it's first day in competition. Shame about the race today, but to be fair Fayolle was riding to at least a podium finish with that run anyways, he was flying! Greg once again proved that he is the GOAT with the way he rode so comfortably down that hill while putting 11 seconds on the other guys caught in the rain.
mikesee
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5/1/2017 6:50am
Oz_Taylor wrote:
I agree and disagree with Eric's comments. He is a racer at heart so obviously he is fine with having an advantage over the other competitors...
I agree and disagree with Eric's comments. He is a racer at heart so obviously he is fine with having an advantage over the other competitors. He'd be just as pissed as the other guys if he had to compete against the Syndicate this year. I don't agree with his comments about safety. Crashing at 40 or 45mph is hardly a game changer in terms of speed. Most of the top guys don't even wear body armor when they can get away with it. Safety is hardly top of the agenda in this sport.

Here is what I can conclude and what I see happening iver the next couple of seasons.

- 29" wheels are faster for dh.
- The Syndicate will have this advantage for most of this season (maybe Trek can bring a bike to Fort William).
- The other big factory teams will be on 29" in 2018.
- In 2018 the tracks will get rougher and this will widen the time difference between 27.5" and 29".
- Privateers and the public won't see 29" bikes until 2019.

What this means for bike sales, development and the industry in general is tough to say.
In 2019 the public will have been riding 29" for DH for more than 10 years.
mikesee
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5/1/2017 7:14am
Verbl Kint wrote:
The difference between now and when Jeff Steber built that prototype is night and day. Boost wasn't there yet, there wasn't a fork designed specifically to...
The difference between now and when Jeff Steber built that prototype is night and day. Boost wasn't there yet, there wasn't a fork designed specifically to be a 29" dh fork (the Dorado on the photo is for a 26" wheel), 29" tires with a DH casing weren't available either, and most importantly, designers haven't nailed down the proper geos yet for long travel 29ers.

That's all changed now, of course. I bet at least 3 more teams will be rocking 29er DH bikes before the season ends. Next year we'll probably see all the teams on it.

It's not hype. It really is faster.
Lenz built several DH bikes before that Intense prototype. It's called the PBJ, it's still in production, and it's been continually refined since.

Was it world-cup worthy? Nope -- that wasn't the intent, knowing that it'd be a long time until racers saw any merit to 29".

But -- more to the point -- it had 29" dual-ply WTB Dissent's in 2.5", either a White Brothers Groove 200 or 180, or a Dorado @ 180, better-than-Boost 20 x 120 up front and 12 x 150 out back, and we've been ripping on them since 2009.

One of them highlighted here: http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/bike-check-skippys-pbj-651488-…

Shocker that the same 'DH roadie, can't be done, looks wrong' mentality was as prevalent then as it is now, just with fewer hashtags. Do amateur downhillers really never mature?!
groghunter
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5/1/2017 8:24am
I think, overall, this is going to be to the detriment of the sport. As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot of brands have to justify DH development as "Halo" product: they lose money on making the bikes. Problem being, a bunch of brands just recently retooled to make 27.5" bikes, & are going to see even less sales. A brand like Rocky Mountain, who just recently got back into DH racing, has to ask themselves whether they want to invest in 29" Maiden molds, or fold from WC DH & just sell the current version as park bikes. Having to retool for a new wheelsize just made this math a lot harder to justify, even more so when they can just invest more in their Enduro team, which rides bikes they actually sell a bunch of. Look at Devinci. If less brands have teams, less riders will get to support, & the field will shrink.

Economically, this is terrible news for the DH segment of the industry, & it's going to cause harm that may take a very long time to recover from.

& if we're going to go down the "they should be able to run the best tech possible, period" argument, then the UCI needs to do away with the equal wheelsize rule. You know why that rule exists? because it's a real advantage. you get a lot of the cornering benefits of the smaller wheel, & the rollover benefits of the bigger one. & if we're going to go through this dance again, let's go to the best combo: 29" front, 27.5" rear.
matmattmatthew
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5/1/2017 11:19am
groghunter wrote:
I think, overall, this is going to be to the detriment of the sport. As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot...
I think, overall, this is going to be to the detriment of the sport. As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot of brands have to justify DH development as "Halo" product: they lose money on making the bikes. Problem being, a bunch of brands just recently retooled to make 27.5" bikes, & are going to see even less sales. A brand like Rocky Mountain, who just recently got back into DH racing, has to ask themselves whether they want to invest in 29" Maiden molds, or fold from WC DH & just sell the current version as park bikes. Having to retool for a new wheelsize just made this math a lot harder to justify, even more so when they can just invest more in their Enduro team, which rides bikes they actually sell a bunch of. Look at Devinci. If less brands have teams, less riders will get to support, & the field will shrink.

Economically, this is terrible news for the DH segment of the industry, & it's going to cause harm that may take a very long time to recover from.

& if we're going to go down the "they should be able to run the best tech possible, period" argument, then the UCI needs to do away with the equal wheelsize rule. You know why that rule exists? because it's a real advantage. you get a lot of the cornering benefits of the smaller wheel, & the rollover benefits of the bigger one. & if we're going to go through this dance again, let's go to the best combo: 29" front, 27.5" rear.
But on the flipside what does that mean for a bike company like Santa Cruz that chose to go out on a limb and innovate? There might be a few companies that say "we are going to take the risk and invest the money to make 29er DH bikes because we think we can have better sales by being one of the only 29er DH bike manufacturers." Last I checked, the bike industry is Capitalist, if there are companies that think they can make money by offering a certain product they will do so and let the Free Market decide.

For a lot of mountain biking parts and products, DH is the testing ground for new ideas which often trickle down to other facets of mountain biking including entry level bikes. Stifling innovation at the top will only hurt the entire industry.
5/1/2017 11:38am Edited Date/Time 5/1/2017 11:52am
groghunter wrote:
I think, overall, this is going to be to the detriment of the sport. As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot...
I think, overall, this is going to be to the detriment of the sport. As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot of brands have to justify DH development as "Halo" product: they lose money on making the bikes. Problem being, a bunch of brands just recently retooled to make 27.5" bikes, & are going to see even less sales. A brand like Rocky Mountain, who just recently got back into DH racing, has to ask themselves whether they want to invest in 29" Maiden molds, or fold from WC DH & just sell the current version as park bikes. Having to retool for a new wheelsize just made this math a lot harder to justify, even more so when they can just invest more in their Enduro team, which rides bikes they actually sell a bunch of. Look at Devinci. If less brands have teams, less riders will get to support, & the field will shrink.

Economically, this is terrible news for the DH segment of the industry, & it's going to cause harm that may take a very long time to recover from.

& if we're going to go down the "they should be able to run the best tech possible, period" argument, then the UCI needs to do away with the equal wheelsize rule. You know why that rule exists? because it's a real advantage. you get a lot of the cornering benefits of the smaller wheel, & the rollover benefits of the bigger one. & if we're going to go through this dance again, let's go to the best combo: 29" front, 27.5" rear.
Well said I agree.

After spending years and big resources making their current bikes and getting the geometry dialled and ending up with beautiful finished products,the likes of canyon Rocky Mountain yt and more will be taking angle grinders to forks and replacing carbon rears with tubular welded alloy.

Roll out the Frankenstein bikes! Pit bits at next round will look like something from mad max!

groghunter
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5/1/2017 11:56am
But on the flipside what does that mean for a bike company like Santa Cruz that chose to go out on a limb and innovate? There...
But on the flipside what does that mean for a bike company like Santa Cruz that chose to go out on a limb and innovate? There might be a few companies that say "we are going to take the risk and invest the money to make 29er DH bikes because we think we can have better sales by being one of the only 29er DH bike manufacturers." Last I checked, the bike industry is Capitalist, if there are companies that think they can make money by offering a certain product they will do so and let the Free Market decide.

For a lot of mountain biking parts and products, DH is the testing ground for new ideas which often trickle down to other facets of mountain biking including entry level bikes. Stifling innovation at the top will only hurt the entire industry.
More innovation springs from more players in the market, not less. By allowing a change that disadvantages smaller teams, the UCI is allowing a change that will likely hurt the market diversity of DH, not increase it.

Good job making a perfect argument for why "Free Markets" don't work. Sometimes the hand that increases competition has to be visible, Ms. Rand.
5/1/2017 12:17pm
adamdigby wrote:
Where are people getting this 9 month to production rule from? I've read through the rule book and it say in Article 1.3.007 that products must...
Where are people getting this 9 month to production rule from? I've read through the rule book and it say in Article 1.3.007 that products must be in production (meaning for sale to public, even it is only a single unit for sale) no later than 12 months after it's first day in competition. Shame about the race today, but to be fair Fayolle was riding to at least a podium finish with that run anyways, he was flying! Greg once again proved that he is the GOAT with the way he rode so comfortably down that hill while putting 11 seconds on the other guys caught in the rain.
From this interview w/ Rob Roskopp from Dirt (FF to 13:32):



adamdigby
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5/1/2017 3:27pm
adamdigby wrote:
Where are people getting this 9 month to production rule from? I've read through the rule book and it say in Article 1.3.007 that products must...
Where are people getting this 9 month to production rule from? I've read through the rule book and it say in Article 1.3.007 that products must be in production (meaning for sale to public, even it is only a single unit for sale) no later than 12 months after it's first day in competition. Shame about the race today, but to be fair Fayolle was riding to at least a podium finish with that run anyways, he was flying! Greg once again proved that he is the GOAT with the way he rode so comfortably down that hill while putting 11 seconds on the other guys caught in the rain.
From this interview w/ Rob Roskopp from Dirt (FF to 13:32):



I decided to look the rule up myself after watching this video and that's when I found regulation 1.3.007 saying 12 months. I was surprised to see there is actually rule about the equipment like that and I wonder where the UCI draws the line. I'm pretty sure guys were racing on Pro-Core more than 12 months before it was for sale and stuff like Gwin's extra long chainstay from the end of last year that I don't expect to go into production any time soon.
Headshot
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5/2/2017 3:51am
So far Eric Carters opinion has not been backed up by the real world experience of the first race of the season. All things being equal, would the Syndicate have won the race and if so, was it because their bikes were faster or their riders more skilled. Looking at the stats, GM was the fastest of the last 10 - quicker than Shaw or Vergier. But Vergier was beaten by Loic. Did GM do well because he is an experienced consistent rider or because he had bigger wheels?

I remember GM going on about how many other factors there were in a DH race when he was still riding a 26er V10 and the syndicate were winning races on those tiny wheels when most of the field were on 27.5. Now he's suddenly a 29er advocate after riding a High Tower at an EWS event that he didn't do especially well in.

There is no doubt in my mind that the hype has been a marketing bonanza for SC. What else matters to them than selling more, expensive bikes than their competitors?
Verbl Kint
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5/2/2017 8:44am
Headshot wrote:
So far Eric Carters opinion has not been backed up by the real world experience of the first race of the season. All things being equal...
So far Eric Carters opinion has not been backed up by the real world experience of the first race of the season. All things being equal, would the Syndicate have won the race and if so, was it because their bikes were faster or their riders more skilled. Looking at the stats, GM was the fastest of the last 10 - quicker than Shaw or Vergier. But Vergier was beaten by Loic. Did GM do well because he is an experienced consistent rider or because he had bigger wheels?

I remember GM going on about how many other factors there were in a DH race when he was still riding a 26er V10 and the syndicate were winning races on those tiny wheels when most of the field were on 27.5. Now he's suddenly a 29er advocate after riding a High Tower at an EWS event that he didn't do especially well in.

There is no doubt in my mind that the hype has been a marketing bonanza for SC. What else matters to them than selling more, expensive bikes than their competitors?
If and when they do win many DH races this year and, subsequently, be the first to market mass-produced 29er DH bikes, then that will surely be $ka-ching$ for them.

But what if the UCI were to announce a rule that DH bikes would only be 650b (or even 26") only in 2018 onwards? I wonder how that would affect sales.
profro
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5/3/2017 6:18am
Standardize the wheels size.

If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your wheels.



Dear Bike Industry,

I'm getting tired of this.

Sincerely,

26" Curmudgeon
matmattmatthew
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5/3/2017 9:12am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 9:13am
profro wrote:
Standardize the wheels size. If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your wheels. Dear Bike Industry, I'm...
Standardize the wheels size.

If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your wheels.



Dear Bike Industry,

I'm getting tired of this.

Sincerely,

26" Curmudgeon
You could also write that as "If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your suspension travel."


I bet there were a lot of rigid curmudgeons at one point, and a rim brake curmudgeons, and bar end curmudgeons, and long stem curmudgeons.
profro
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5/3/2017 10:31am
IMO, its not quite the same. Disc brakes, suspension travel, etc moved around a lot in the MTB's infancy and has stabilized to the point where its mature. Someone with a 10" fork isn't faster than someone with a 8" fork. Hell, didn't Minaar clean house on a 7" Showa? I understand and appreciate a new sport finding its self and settling on technology, but this wheelsize thing is so off-putting at this point. We used an equal wheelsize in UCI racing pretty much since its inception. Is everyone saying that the racing on 26" wheels wasn't exciting and competitive? And didn't Myles Rockwell win WCs on a 26" bike? He's pretty tall. So it can be done taller guys.

This "29" wheels are faster" rhetoric will become mute when everyone is on them and then we will be back to more normalized. competitve racing. Just standardize the wheelsize and get on with it. BMX is 20", Cruiser is 24", Road is 700c, why is mtb 24",26", 650b, 29"?
jeff.brines
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5/3/2017 10:34am
You could also write that as "If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your suspension travel." I...
You could also write that as "If you want to go faster, then lay off the brakes and increase your skill, not your suspension travel."


I bet there were a lot of rigid curmudgeons at one point, and a rim brake curmudgeons, and bar end curmudgeons, and long stem curmudgeons.
Touche, I remember reading in the forums way back when "I don't need full suspension, this is what arms and knees are for" etc.
jeff.brines
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5/3/2017 10:41am Edited Date/Time 5/3/2017 11:10am
profro wrote:
IMO, its not quite the same. Disc brakes, suspension travel, etc moved around a lot in the MTB's infancy and has stabilized to the point where...
IMO, its not quite the same. Disc brakes, suspension travel, etc moved around a lot in the MTB's infancy and has stabilized to the point where its mature. Someone with a 10" fork isn't faster than someone with a 8" fork. Hell, didn't Minaar clean house on a 7" Showa? I understand and appreciate a new sport finding its self and settling on technology, but this wheelsize thing is so off-putting at this point. We used an equal wheelsize in UCI racing pretty much since its inception. Is everyone saying that the racing on 26" wheels wasn't exciting and competitive? And didn't Myles Rockwell win WCs on a 26" bike? He's pretty tall. So it can be done taller guys.

This "29" wheels are faster" rhetoric will become mute when everyone is on them and then we will be back to more normalized. competitve racing. Just standardize the wheelsize and get on with it. BMX is 20", Cruiser is 24", Road is 700c, why is mtb 24",26", 650b, 29"?
...I think you kind of nailed it in the first part of your post. I don't foresee 48" wheels being all that fast the same way a 12" wheel wouldn't work very well (but I would be all for Warner riding down Fort Bill on a 12" wheeled bike though...makes me laugh just thinking about it)

Just like suspension travel and settings, I think the wheel thing is going to come down to taste more than anyone cares to admit. Again, as I keep noting (but nobody listens to), EWS racers often have the option of either and some prefer the smaller wheel. That says a lot to me.

So I say let it proliferate. If its too big, people will go back, just like they did with suspension forks and rear end travel.

Its expensive to bring a new wheel out, and there isn't enough money in DH for a company to pioneer some all-new wheel standard just to win some WCs (new tire molds, new rims, etc). 29" has been around for a decade +. Adopting it for DH isn't as revolutionary as we all are pretending.

The fear we are somehow going to over segmentize the market may already be true, but bringing a larger hoop to DH bikes is a drop in the bucket all things considered. We should be more concerned about ebikes ruining trail access than Minnaar going fractions of a second faster at the top level of the sport because his wheels are 1.7" bigger than the other guys...



matmattmatthew
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5/3/2017 6:36pm
Couldn't agree more. The only thing that gives me any heartburn in the cycling industry anymore is E-bikes. As long as a bike is still human powered I don't care how big the wheels are, the tire width or any of the other trivial things we like to talk about on the internet.
5/3/2017 11:10pm
Why not split the diff and make 650 (597mm) wheels a new standard?
5/4/2017 1:18pm


Ben Walker (of Scott Bikes) has a 29" Gambler, so maybe we'll see some under the team at Ft. Bill?

Here's what he posted up on ridemonkey regarding the bike:

"I have one and it's real fast. My butt touches my rear tire sometimes and it's terrifying depending on the situation. Even though it's faster and has more grip I usually always ride the 27.5 bike. It's more fun for what I do. If I had flatter tracks then maybe I would ride it more often. It's not much of an advantage in Champery where your skills and ball size have a greater effect than wheelsize. I had to reduce the travel to 187mm in the rear to keep my seat where I want it.
I think drifting flat corners is easier on the 29DH bike. It takes a little more commitment when throwing the bike into corners but after you get used to the different timing it's not really an issue. "
jeff.brines
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5/4/2017 1:25pm
^^^ Good stuff!
5/4/2017 1:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/4/2017 1:57pm
profro wrote:
IMO, its not quite the same. Disc brakes, suspension travel, etc moved around a lot in the MTB's infancy and has stabilized to the point where...
IMO, its not quite the same. Disc brakes, suspension travel, etc moved around a lot in the MTB's infancy and has stabilized to the point where its mature. Someone with a 10" fork isn't faster than someone with a 8" fork. Hell, didn't Minaar clean house on a 7" Showa? I understand and appreciate a new sport finding its self and settling on technology, but this wheelsize thing is so off-putting at this point. We used an equal wheelsize in UCI racing pretty much since its inception. Is everyone saying that the racing on 26" wheels wasn't exciting and competitive? And didn't Myles Rockwell win WCs on a 26" bike? He's pretty tall. So it can be done taller guys.

This "29" wheels are faster" rhetoric will become mute when everyone is on them and then we will be back to more normalized. competitve racing. Just standardize the wheelsize and get on with it. BMX is 20", Cruiser is 24", Road is 700c, why is mtb 24",26", 650b, 29"?
In a Dirt interview w/ Martin Whiteley, Whiteley pretty much said the UCI doesn't want to standardize MTB and have a commissaire standing at the finish line with a tape measure checking every bike. This was in regard to when Gary Fisher first proposed 29 for XC. “Leave that to road. Let MTB be a melting pot and sort of an area for development of product.”


MPH24
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5/4/2017 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 5/4/2017 4:01pm
^^ Surprised the UCI isn't all about the commissionaire at the finish to grease an extra 20K in fees for hosting a WC
Pedal4life
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5/6/2017 8:55am
Finally a DH bike that was built for me, at 6'4" 210lds. a bike w/200mm + travel I'd probably want 1325-1330mm wheelbase liked that Minaar had 215mm of travel on his bike and the extra wide Enve bar is super cool too but the beautiful wagon wheels that's what really got me that bike was made for me!

If Santa Cruz had this rig last year we may have seen a very different Steve Peat as well.

So hi-hopes to see many more big wheeled super-sleds in the DH field quickly I for one have been waiting for this.
Verbl Kint
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6/5/2017 2:25am
The first ever win at a UCI DH WC race for a 29er has finally happened. Let's see how it goes in Leogang.
sspomer
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6/5/2017 8:03am
if separate 27.5 and 29er classes would keep all the complaining in check, i'm down. plus we'd get potentially twice as much racing : ) 250 vs 450.
AdamO
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6/5/2017 8:06am
Schladming was Sam Hill track back in the days and now we can tell Legoland is definitely Gwin track.
profro
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6/5/2017 9:14am
The whoa is me I've never had a bike that fit me like is getting old. For Petes sake, Minaar has won 19 world cups on a non-29er bike. Horrible argument.
LTrumpore
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6/6/2017 5:27am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2017 6:04am
profro wrote:
The whoa is me I've never had a bike that fit me like is getting old. For Petes sake, Minaar has won 19 world cups on...
The whoa is me I've never had a bike that fit me like is getting old. For Petes sake, Minaar has won 19 world cups on a non-29er bike. Horrible argument.
And just 1 on a 29er, on a track he's now won on 3 years running, and with almost identical time differentials within the top 5 on both 275 and 29.

Perhaps this is all much ado about nothing? The only real takeaway from the weekend seems to be confirmation that Greg Minnaar is the king of Ft. William.





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