Accessibility Widget: On | Off

All Things Suspension Tech

Create New Tag

3/12/2020 7:21 PM

My first mountain bike was fully rigid. Those Farmer Johns did mad work to tame the terrain. Then I ordered a GT Avalanche with a bad assed double, super, triple clamp Pro Flex! Then I was told that because my new bike was an XL, the super fork wouldn't fit. Something about steer tube lengths or some shit. What ever. So I was stuck with some new on the market Judy contraption. Cool, I guess. I'll take what I can get.That Judy came with a plastic bodied damper which, like all of the rest, died within the first week due to the elasticity of the plastic body. So I got the warranty replacement that was a set of aluminum bodied cartridges which I proceeded to install in our living room apartment at culinary school. Thus beginning my suspension tuning career. After years of Rock Shox. I moved on to Manitou, where I found that if one removed the last and biggest shim from a Dorado, because they were too harsh, and put it on the stack of one of their single crowns, reduced to 80mm, it worked great for street and dirt jumping. The dream. to this day, I've never paid anyone to work on my suspension. I got one free Push Job on an old Fox of mine, but I've never paid for work. Given that the last fork rebuild that I've done was on a second hand 26", 32mm Boxxer WC more than a decade ago, i cannot in any way call myself a professional or in any way knowledgeable about modern suspension.

But given the high prices and hassle of shipping one's suspension components off for work, or waiting even longer for the LBS to do the same, more and more riders are doing more and more of their own suspension maintenance.

How about we have this space to discuss and probably argue about how to properly maintain our suspension systems? Lowers and air can service techniques? The best fluids? Whatever! I've been out of the game for long enough that I've never had to replace a foam ring, but hopefully this will provide a safe place to discuss all of their intricacies.

Game On!!?

|

3/12/2020 8:05 PM

To start things off I had this thought while taking out the trash... Has any one ever put a negative spring, either coil or air, on a coil spring shock? Would that just make it too plush? There must be such a thing given how harsh World Cuppers make their suspensions to go fast.

|

3/12/2020 9:48 PM

Coil neg springs are a great idea for coil suspension to counter IFP pressure. it’s been done quite a lot already, rockshox use It in the vivid and super deluxe, Cane creek used it in some CCDBair shocks but not sure about DBcoils. Now EXT use it in the Geometron-spec storia V3. Since a coil is so low friction at the top of the stroke, they need something to stop the ifp pressure creating a top out bump at full extension.

CcDb gets by due to the very small shaft but I think anything with a 1/2” dia or bigger shaft would really benefit from it

|

3/13/2020 12:10 AM

To eliminate the coil rattle when the factory plastic coil sleeves denigrate, I use 35mm heat shrink to replace it. Did this the my Boxxer and Marzocchi forks.

|

3/13/2020 6:51 AM

Charger 2 and up are significantly easier to bleed than the originals. I nailed it first try which is not usually the case lol, Im thinking just about anyone could pull off a rebuild of newer charger dampers.

|

3/13/2020 7:38 AM

Big Bird wrote:

To start things off I had this thought while taking out the trash... Has any one ever put a negative spring, either coil or ...more

Every higher end Rockshox rear shock for the past 5 or 6 years, both air and coil. They call it 'countermeasure.'
Photo


|

3/13/2020 3:00 PM

In a video Vorsprung put up on their awesome channel some time ago Steve looked reluctant about these sprigs in the super deluxe. From what I remembered it looked really soft. He Also said it wasn't going to cause problems either. I'm not sure a negative spring is really necessary given the suppleness of coil shocks' initial stroke. The top out issue seems more of a concern and I experienced it recently when I switch my blown shock with my spare one. A proper bumper could be' more appropriate to me. Could maybe incorporing some kind of oil circuit like a super slow speed rebound damper help?

|

3/13/2020 4:38 PM

The countermeasure does nothing imo.

The megneg is the real deal, but it took a lot of back to back runs, strap wrenches, rubber bands, volume spacers, cock....i mean shock pumps..... but it did work well.

My 2020 bike I kept it stupidly heavy and simple, DHX2 with Cane Creek progressive spring, F36 up front with the underated fitgrip damper and a vorsprung smashpot installed. It's quiet, virtually maintenance free and plush AF.

|

3/14/2020 12:45 PM

The counter measure spring serve essentially the same purpose in both Super Deluxe and Super Deluxe Coil. They aim at reducing (opposing) shock force at topout you need to overcome before the shock moves (preload) caused by the IFP.

In the Super Deluxe air, it's action is 2 fold, it mechanically provide negative force via the spring itself and also reduce negative chamber volume increasing it's compression ratio (again more negative force).

You could remove the counter measure spring to enlarge the negative chamber and it would indeed reduce suspension rate but would also increase preload significantly, a balancing act RS had to do designing the shock.

|

datumcycles.com - MTB setup tools that gives you actionable data on bike geometry and suspension

3/15/2020 8:23 PM

brash wrote:

The countermeasure does nothing imo.

The megneg is the real deal, but it took a lot of back to back runs, strap wrenches, ...more

Just from a calculation the countermeasure spring does provide more force than the air volume it displaces, it's not very much either way though and the MegNeg is the best configuration hands down

One day I will test them both on the dyno and know for sure

|

3/24/2020 4:30 AM

brash wrote:

The countermeasure does nothing imo.

The megneg is the real deal, but it took a lot of back to back runs, strap wrenches, ...more

Second the Megneg comment. It is a PITA to tune but once you get it right it feels amazing, especially on a bike the the Bronson V3 that blows through travel. The midstroke and beyond is super supportive but the wheel still moves out of the way nicely in the rough. I ended up with 4 bands in the negative chamber and no tokens in the positive with 20% higher pressure in the shock.

I have the Cascade Components LT link on the way to me along with a CCDB IL Coil though. The megneg was just the gateway drug to wanting even more out of the suspension. Hopefully the link and coil give me what I'm looking for.

|

4/5/2020 6:59 PM

I'm kind of starting a new topic here, but does anyone know of/what would you think of a fork that is both coil and air sprung? I'm aware that the Marzocchi bomber Z1 coil has a small air cartridge to aid bottom out resistance, and there are probably other coil forks that do too. But I have this picture in my head of a fork that uses the best of both worlds- the sensitivity of coil and the mid-end stroke support and pop of air. Here's my vision: an adjustable psi air spring in the left fork leg running super low pressure, as not to mess with the off-the-top of the coil, and very low chamber volume, as to provide a quick ramp-up. Potentially there could be some tech like is found in the MRP ramp control, so the progression wouldn't be too sharp. In the right fork leg there would be a coil around the damper shaft, similar to how coil shocks are set up. Hypothetically, the air spring would hold off for the most part at the beginning of the stroke, allowing the coil to control small bump, but come into play where people feel they lack support and pop with traditional coils. Basically what I'm asking is do you guys think this would work, or if you know of an already existing fork that utilizes coil and air pretty much equally. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

|

4/5/2020 9:34 PM

You basically described the push acs3 without saying it.

That been said. Had both acs3 and smashpot and the vorsprung solution with hydraulic bottom out is much better

|