Couple things to point out. To me the first notable thing was the general reduction of alloy builds post-covid (or was it more so an increase in carbon builds?) and how that is sliiightly swinging backwards as the industry settles down from its post-covid collapse. There are still some notable models or even entire brands no longer offering alloy. But it's nice to see a slight comeback, even if the only Santa Cruz model doing it is... An ebike.
And in another way, unfortunately tied to the alloy vs carbon scenario, how do you feel about the 'tiers' of builds kinda sorta locking you into certain systems or brands in various ways?
I was already fairly annoyed that low end wireless options gobbled up the mid range market and slowly killed off your tasteful cable GX and SLX type builds. (Things may be even weirder now with no SLX, cabled XT, and only wireless XTR now?)
But now you have harsh delineation with frames having no cable ports so they are 'wireless only'.
But the more salient question I wanted to ask was less 'wired vs wireless' and more so... Are you happy with the stock builds provided by brands? How would you improve the stock builds? (Do you think they would be plausible for brands and they're just out to lunch... Or are they pigeon holed into the current builds?)
And of course, this doesn't even need to be a 'we want high end alloy' thread or 'we want high end carbon with cabled mechs' thread... If we really want to get niche, and less plausible, we can even make an argument for sensibly priced carbon builds with your Deore or Eagle 70 (or even Cues?) with base suspension like Psylos or Z2s. Yes, most riders won't want this build outright. Buuut if the basic build out is solid enough, what it actually becomes is a viable upgrade platform (slightly more practical than a frame up build).
(Surely this won't occur in the era of 'lowered SKUs'... Though Trek's new Fuel platform sure as shit won't convince me brands are leaning towards that direction lol... Nor will the Stumpy + EVO platform, though I suppose the most popular models in the industry can fool around like that.)
My "problem " with stock builds is:
1. They mix the tiers of components to look good on the shop floor. High end deraileur, crappy shifter/ chan etc. So the build is inconsostent, with prioity on parts that can be seen, but does not make the performance better
2. Each level get "all" components lifted a step. So if you want better suspension, you need to buy top spec wheels, groupsets and "bling" that increases the prices a lot for each step.
I want good geo, good suspension& brakes, ok wheels and drivetrain that works.
Pretty much regardless of model and trim, if you're buying a car, you can choose interior and exterior colours and trim, wheels, engine, and extras. Why don't more bike companies do that (especially the big ones), or is it just a scale thing? Or "that sounds hard and we don't want to because we're greedy bastards" thing (especially the big ones)?
I don't ever want electronic bits on my bike and I'm about 90% sure I'll always been an aluminum frame guy, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in hi spec things (Telum shock, custom wheels, NSB cranks and bits, etc). That said, I do like piecing my bike together and not sure I'll ever buy a complete again. Might be a little more enticing if there were more options to pick and choose what I wanted.
Absolutely LOVE what Propain does. May as well be a custom bike builder. For nearly the same price as any equivalent stock build (or less)... And it's fun! I wonder how difficult their production pipeline is to build up these bikes and how plausible it is for other brands.
I love that I could get an Ohlins builds (as a discounted upgrade right now no less) and just keep whatever like eagle 70 or DB8s or what not, if I want to start cheap and upgrade down the line or just choose a brake line nobody specs eventually like Hope or maybe Hayes etc.
As opposed to being stuck buying some of the most expensive brakes and drivetrains in the market for an Ohlins build when I may no even prefer those models or 'systems' in the case of wireless drivetrains.
Propain and Commencal are doing specs the right way. Orbea also, when you Even can get custom paint.
You can choose a standard build, or make it to be your preferred specs.
It is much more demanding than just offer stock build, but there would be a LOT more options for customers, and each brand.
I will buy a new bike next year, but its hard to find stock builds that matches my wishes for a ok price point, because i dont want to buy top spec Electronic dropper/drivetrain to have decent suspension and brakes
Wish I had the budget for an Orbea right now. I love that Rallon and actually one of my complaints is the limited base build, but I understand it's not quite a bike designed for 'budget buyers' no matter what. A carbon only frame with modular options and what not.
It does bring up the concept of the 'rolling chassis' some brands were offering... Which may be a slightly better value than full frame up builds. I think they gave you wheels, suspension, and a cockpit... Maybe a seat assembly? And then brakes and drivetrain were up to the buyer to handle.
I simply can't expect Orbea to offer a Deore/eagle 70 drivetrain build with DB8s/MT520s or420s and base Deluxe/Psylo/Bomber/etc. I imagine it would BARELY lower the price while massively lowering the performance, considering the frame only price and the E10 price.
The Rallon is actually a great case in point for... How values are structured. The frame only is 4300 and the base E10 build is 5700. So you get all those parts for 1400? The base build comes with a factory 38; aftermarket that is 1250 alone right? lol
But ya bummer for someone like me who doesn't like shiny forks. The only thing you can do from E10 is upgrade, can't downgrade or do something like a rolling chassis from the frame only. Would be sales and secondhand chasing and i'd probly STILL end up paying more than the E10 build lol
'make budget carbon builds and high end alloy builds great again?'
I think I recall looking at Commencal frames and they gave you options on which shock to buy it with. THAT was cool. Very sensible.
Give me marzocchi, deore, rf Chester and a decent wheelset.
Proper tires for bikes intended use.
Give me a solid platform to get started and I can get what’s perfect for me after I have time on it. I don’t care about weight much.
With sram’s purchase will Ochains start getting oem specced?
This is 100% why I bought the bike I bought Nov 1st last year.
They had a frame that was what I wanted regarding travel and was 95% to my theoretical ideal geometry (purely based off thinking, not riding a pile of bikes of different geometries), Ultimate level suspension, good brakes (for the time...brakes have changed now), GX mechanical drivetrain, and DT Swiss M1900 wheels, touchpoints are all good, good length dropper.
Wheel upgrade will happen eventually whenever I damage this heavy aluminum wheel, brake upgrade will happen eventually when I'm feeling like these don't contaiin my riding any longer, and drivetrain will eventually wear out and get upgraded part by part. Really good frame and really good suspension is what I wanted from my purchase and it's what I got. When I saw that stuff all on sale I knew I had to jump at the bike even though the timing was not ideal.
If bike brands want to sell their bikes, those are the places to look.
The bike I didn't buy was a Commencal Tempo. It also had good suspension and decent spec everywhere else. I didn't get it because of the headset cable routing. They lost me to a different company with that.
I'm bummed YT went under right when they released one of the best stock builds on the market, tip to tip.
Capras with TRP DHRs and Kryptos out the box? Jeffsys with Hayes A4s? The Izzo with Ohlins and full SLX load out?
Part of me regrets getting the limited edition Jeffsy instead of that alloy Capra but... I don't need (or want) that much bike. The Jeffsy has been quite good, especially for the price... (Once I warrantied the failing G2s)
Another notable impressive build, at least at the current price, is that Specialized Status 170. Also TRPs, Deore12, Fox 38/coil... Not sure how the Roval wheels are but for the price shit you just saved enough to buy a better wheelset anyway.
I hate most current builds on a lot. They just seem all over the place. Wanted the better shock you have to have xtr or x01axs. Crap like that. Last couple bike I have bout bottom level builds upgraded the things I want to upgrade and sell the other part as take off. Saved quite a bit of money doing that and have better build than if I had gone with what they wanted.
That's the thing I think that's what they want us to do if we're in the "niche" (maybe not so niche...) predicament of wanting more basic tier drivetrains with decent suspension and ideally decent brakes. A very gravity-oriented approach. And conversely I could see XC riders saying they want the BEST drivetrain possible but don't want a massive mark up for suspension and brakes, money they'd rather save to get carbon hoops likely since brands tend to not spec carbon hoops until you're spending a laughable amount of money like ~10k or whatever
But they know that we are going to do exactly that. Buy from a 'BASE' model, and then upgrade and just eat some sh!t with the take off sales. But chances are if you chase sales or secondhand and sell your take offs, you're still making out like a bandit compared to being forced into nearly 10k builds to get the brakes or suspension or whatever you wanted...
I guess at the end of the day... If you talk to a rider who is looking for a carbon build with decent suspension, on average statistically they're absolutely gonna say 'yeah i wanna pay out for AXS/di2 as well'. Almost as if it's a computer and there would be a bottleneck if every part of the bike isn't high end or at least at the 'same level'
I'm just wondering if practically ANY bike is gonna spec deore XT anymore? There were quite a few brands speccing SLX... So for those bikes are they gonna swap to XT and upcharge a bit? Orrr are they gonna downgrade to deore12 and keep the saaame price? I think I know what they prefer lol
SRAM OEM price point "bundling" is very obvious. My biggest complaint there is the brakes just because I really don't want SRAM brakes.
Other than that though is it a bit of component "snobbery" (there's probably a better word). E.g how bad is Eagle90? Vs GX?
I really prefer Shimano shifting and RockShox suspension which is fairly hard to achieve but I still think I'll end up compromising just because the OEM discounts are so substantial that custom builds seem very excessive.
In a perfect world there'd be more options but I understand why things are specced the way they are.... And whilst I'm fussy I'm not sufficiently fussy to offset the apparent "savings" at least until I've tried it.
Well thank the lord we have been delivered from SX and even NX. I'm not sure either how eagle 70 or 90 holds up but I'm assuming it's simply better than what existed previously and if it's a slightly better version of NX or parity with GX than I'm ok with that. I'm also more optimistic about the new mineral oil SRAM stuff so that's at least some consolation.
Like getting away from the NX Santa Cruz meta with liiike G2s or whatever is a HUGE upgrade imo... But it does suck that there's so much OEM bundling, WITHOUT a significant price decrease. Right? Like I'd be a bit more on board if there were DIRT cheap eagle 70-DB8-Psylo-baseDeluxe models floating around... But that tends not to be the case.
It seems like even with bundling at the very least eagle 70 is a decent price chunk in and of itself... So we're more so seeing Deore or Cues tied with either that suspension or even worse, of course, an Xfusion to Recon fork type build... And then either MT420s or 2 pistons. I understand who that build is for but I still feel like there is often quite a wide price gap between those 2 builds. And then you get put into a scenario where finding a much better build discounted from last year just blows that sorta eagle70/DB8 build out of the water.
Since it leans more 'mid range pricing' but our mid range should be more so an SLX type build. I think we dip right back into the barbell argument Brines brought up because people either want a dirt cheap Deore build or they want a top of the line AXS build (statistically)... So ironically the 'core' of the industry often gets hung out to dry, with limited mid range options and being pigeon holed into paying too much with either a pricey mid range build or a cheap build that is upgraded over time (to nearly the same spec level and nearly the same price, all said and done).
I bought my Slayer A50 in 2020 JUST before Covid came along and blew everything up. After taxes, it was just over $5k cdn and came with RS Ultimate suspension (SD coil and Lyric) XT/SLX groupset with RaceFace cranks. The only real weakness were wheels, but otherwise it was a pretty insane value. I think the following year the price went up $800 and suspension dropped down to RS Select level. I think I've upgraded pretty much component since (and moved on to an entirely different bike), but it was such a good value at the time and such a smart spec. More of that, please.
Could be remembering wrong, but price per part... Rocky Mountain had the most egregious price-gouging during covid I saw. As well as held on to it the longest post-covid, when everything started shitting the bed. To the extent it's not at all surprising they ran into issues just afterwards.
And while they have tapered down they're still getting beat out by most brands... At least it's competitive I guess. The hardtails are ok, not too offensive despite being beat out by brands like Norco and Marin. The base instinct is ok, 3400 for Psylo isn't great but the rest of the build is decent so solid there. 4k for the Altitude with kinda 'base' parts is a little wonky. Don't even get me started on WTB rims... And 4500 for the bomber Z2 carbon Element is pretty meh but again it makes me think of like... Someone who is ok with the drivetrain brakes and shock and just changes the fork if they wish. Maybe. Dunno.
I wish I had some hard evidence of the prices they were shooting for during covid. Like every brand was doing it... But RM is the only one I remember and just though 'wtf are they on about'
My biggest pet peeves with build kits are underpowered brakes (ESPECIALLY on ebikes), too short dropper posts (ESPECIALLY when they come with a OneUp or similarly low stack/adjustable one), and shocks on mid-tier+ bikes without LSC adjusters. None of these are showing signs of improving on most brands, with the exception of maybe the brakes.
1) brakes - literally every time I've upgraded brakes to something more powerful, my riding has gotten better from increased control and confidence.
2) short droppers - I'm 5'8" and literally in the middle of almost every size medium. I can run 170mm gen1 AXS droppers (notoriously high stack height / long insert length) on my insertion depth limited bikes and on my bike with a nice straight seat tube I can run a 200mm. Yet they come with 150mm droppers. A 180mm OneUp (or equivalent) should be on every medium. Larges should have at least a 200.
3) no LSC on shocks - Especially on Super Deluxes which are very difficult to convert. At least Float X can add LSC for $35 of parts, but most people don't know that. How many riders (who have the option) run their shocks with LSC in dead middle? I'll cede that sure for an NX level buyer they probably won't care, but for just about any level higher build, the user will appreciate LSC adjust on their shock.
agreed. going out of your way to spec OneUp and still only running 150mm on a medium is a crime. if they wanna spec things wrong at least save some money and pass it on to the consumer, and then they can not be sad about ripping it out and selling it straight away. TranzX/Xfusion/etc.
I work on my own bikes. I'm also poor, so I should see some value in stock bikes, but at the same time I'm poor, so I don't see the point in getting lots of parts that I dont want attached to a frame... So my approach is to keep bikes "alive" and upgrade what needs to be upgraded. This year for example is a new frameset for my trail setup (frame, fork and 29" front wheel build, as I come from a 27,5 aggro hardtail)
The only time It makes sense to me to get a full bike (new or most probably, second hand) is when dipping my toes into a new category... Just to start with something, and build around it.
...But my ways are becoming a problem now that I'm more and more interested in an ebike...
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