Go with SRAM or stay with Shimano?

FLFlatLander 9/19/2021 5:46pm
9/19/2021 5:46pm
Primoz wrote:
Do they have 90 % of the worldwide 12spd market? Because that's what we're talking about, 12spd drivetrains (mostly) from both...
Sure, but, when it comes to failures, I have broken (as I said) three GX in one season each for very questionable reasons. NX fall apart at the trail most weeks for someone. Now, who knows - over all, with out a doubt, more broken Shimano at the trails, but, as said, more Shimano at the trails too.

Only Shimano bit on my bike is XTR brakes.
Primoz
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Primoz 9/19/2021 10:31pm
9/19/2021 10:31pm
noideamtber wrote:
over last 18 months sram has dominated the pre built bikes with 12 speeds, they offer more factory discount and the selling point of "eagle -...
over last 18 months sram has dominated the pre built bikes with 12 speeds, they offer more factory discount and the selling point of "eagle - all levels are interchangable" is helpful. there is no way shimano is 90% in the 12 speed world.

I just wish Sram would bring out an 11 speed 52 cassestte, i love the shimano 11spd one(other than reliability)
Why would you want an 11 speed cassette when you have a 12spd one? The benefit of the Deore one is mainly in the pricepoint and HG compatibility, otherwise the 12spd trumps it in gear steps. Having an 11spd 10/11-52 cassette would just make it worse gear-jumps-wise and would still require the same 12spd derailleurs, it wouldn't work on Sram's 11spd derailleurs.

What Sram needs to do, in my opinion, is make a wholly new main part of the cassette if they're sticking to the 52T thing. And get rid of that god awful jump between the 42T and 52T.
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Ambushell
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Ambushell 9/19/2021 10:57pm
9/19/2021 10:57pm
My experience as a mechanic, and owner of both Sram and Shimano pushes me towards Shimano. The drivetrain performs better (HG+) and there isnt the massive difference in shift quality between say, NX and X01. A Deore drivetrain shifts basically just as well as XTR. The only issue I've encountered over more than a year and a half of usage in my XT drivetrain is the der clutch becoming sticky. Only needs about a 20 minute rebuild and it will be good as new. The NX drivetrain it replaced was falling apart after 6 months. In my experience the Sram 12 speed drivetrains are very sensitive to B-limit adjustment and the screw 'loosens' or moves around, needs to be adjusted every other ride or absolutely caked in loctite. Not to mention you need a separate tool to adjust it. On Shimano the adjustment line is stamped onto the der cage and I haven't needed to touch it since I installed it.

As for crash/damage durability, I think both Sram and Shimano are pretty equal. Not much you can do to prevent a der being smashed at 20+ mph from a rock or stick other than making it all out of titanium or some other exotic metal.

TL:DR as a mechanic that works on these drivetrains day in and day out, I suggest you go with Shimano. If you're breaking ders constantly then you might need to pick better lines Wink
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FLFlatLander 9/20/2021 7:33am
9/20/2021 7:33am
Ambushell wrote:
My experience as a mechanic, and owner of both Sram and Shimano pushes me towards Shimano. The drivetrain performs better (HG+) and there isnt the massive...
My experience as a mechanic, and owner of both Sram and Shimano pushes me towards Shimano. The drivetrain performs better (HG+) and there isnt the massive difference in shift quality between say, NX and X01. A Deore drivetrain shifts basically just as well as XTR. The only issue I've encountered over more than a year and a half of usage in my XT drivetrain is the der clutch becoming sticky. Only needs about a 20 minute rebuild and it will be good as new. The NX drivetrain it replaced was falling apart after 6 months. In my experience the Sram 12 speed drivetrains are very sensitive to B-limit adjustment and the screw 'loosens' or moves around, needs to be adjusted every other ride or absolutely caked in loctite. Not to mention you need a separate tool to adjust it. On Shimano the adjustment line is stamped onto the der cage and I haven't needed to touch it since I installed it.

As for crash/damage durability, I think both Sram and Shimano are pretty equal. Not much you can do to prevent a der being smashed at 20+ mph from a rock or stick other than making it all out of titanium or some other exotic metal.

TL:DR as a mechanic that works on these drivetrains day in and day out, I suggest you go with Shimano. If you're breaking ders constantly then you might need to pick better lines Wink
I have had my B screw move on its own (on AXS)...ghosts....
Edthorne
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Edthorne 10/15/2021 8:45am
10/15/2021 8:45am
Hey all,

I'm wondering if anyone here has first hand experience with the TRP derailleur and Shimano 12 speed cassettes? As of now the TR12 is only rated to a 50t, but I'd like to know if anyone's successfully run the 51t Shimano cassettes, or if there's an actual issue with this.

My reasoning is that I love the shifting from HG+, but am dead tired of Shimano's derailleurs. I also like the idea of a 3rd viable option for a 12 speed drivetrain.
FLFlatLander 10/15/2021 11:51am
10/15/2021 11:51am
Ed -

Not your answer - BUT. WIth 12, and I have been on 12 for many years. Shimano SRAM (and my) Campagnolo the shifting is really good cross platforms. The only thing I have sorta run into is the chainline seems off a tad from one or the other. The tolerances are so tight that .001mm is within reasonable functional spec. I have ridden ShimaNO wheels on my XX1 AXS bike with no ill effects at all.
Edthorne
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Edthorne 10/15/2021 12:01pm
10/15/2021 12:01pm
FLFlatLander wrote:
Ed - Not your answer - BUT. WIth 12, and I have been on 12 for many years. Shimano SRAM (and my) Campagnolo the shifting is...
Ed -

Not your answer - BUT. WIth 12, and I have been on 12 for many years. Shimano SRAM (and my) Campagnolo the shifting is really good cross platforms. The only thing I have sorta run into is the chainline seems off a tad from one or the other. The tolerances are so tight that .001mm is within reasonable functional spec. I have ridden ShimaNO wheels on my XX1 AXS bike with no ill effects at all.
Oh I'm not too worried about the cog spacing, they're close enough that they should work well enough together. Certainly better than my clapped out Shimano derailleurs do now. TRP's athletes all seem to be running SRAM cassettes without issue, and SRAM/Shimano seem to work together as well. I'm more worried about running into issues if I just pump out the b-tension a bit to accomodate an extra tooth on the cassette.
Primoz
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Primoz 10/15/2021 12:11pm
10/15/2021 12:11pm
An additional tooth is 2 % difference in radius of the cog. It's a 2 mm difference in the radius, 4 in the diameter. You'll be fine in that regard, the cage will likely move in relation to the cog more during compression of suspension than the difference between the 50T and the 51T is.

FLFlatLander what are you aiming at with the 0,001 mm and functional spec?
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Edthorne
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Edthorne 10/15/2021 12:27pm
10/15/2021 12:27pm
Primoz wrote:
An additional tooth is 2 % difference in radius of the cog. It's a 2 mm difference in the radius, 4 in the diameter. You'll be...
An additional tooth is 2 % difference in radius of the cog. It's a 2 mm difference in the radius, 4 in the diameter. You'll be fine in that regard, the cage will likely move in relation to the cog more during compression of suspension than the difference between the 50T and the 51T is.

FLFlatLander what are you aiming at with the 0,001 mm and functional spec?
Sweet, thanks for the numbers!
FLFlatLander 10/15/2021 12:29pm
10/15/2021 12:29pm
Side to side - the radius of each cog is larger or smaller than every other cog....or it would be a single speed......the spacing I speak of is face to face within the horizontal plane of the gears. That is where shifting is affected more than going from a 4x some odd tooth to a 50 or 52.
Primoz
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Primoz 10/15/2021 12:30pm
10/15/2021 12:30pm
Yeah, the cassettes most likely do not have a 0,001 mm tolerance on the cog spacing... Take a zero away. Or two. That's the range to aim for.
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FLFlatLander 10/15/2021 12:40pm
10/15/2021 12:40pm
Primoz wrote:
Yeah, the cassettes most likely do not have a 0,001 mm tolerance on the cog spacing... Take a zero away. Or two. That's the range to...
Yeah, the cassettes most likely do not have a 0,001 mm tolerance on the cog spacing... Take a zero away. Or two. That's the range to aim for.
Take away one 0 ;-)

Oddly, on Super Record 12 I can "hear" thick lube rubbing on the cogsets. Thus I use only light oil. I have not looked at the XX1 so close, but, it is ALWAYS louder than my road bikes. The chains are almost exact same width (1/2 CTC pins)




boozed
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boozed 10/19/2021 4:08am
10/19/2021 4:08am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2021 4:53am
Primoz wrote:
Why would you want an 11 speed cassette when you have a 12spd one? The benefit of the Deore one is mainly in the pricepoint and...
Why would you want an 11 speed cassette when you have a 12spd one? The benefit of the Deore one is mainly in the pricepoint and HG compatibility, otherwise the 12spd trumps it in gear steps. Having an 11spd 10/11-52 cassette would just make it worse gear-jumps-wise and would still require the same 12spd derailleurs, it wouldn't work on Sram's 11spd derailleurs.

What Sram needs to do, in my opinion, is make a wholly new main part of the cassette if they're sticking to the 52T thing. And get rid of that god awful jump between the 42T and 52T.
Do you think that silly 42-50/52 jump is a philosophical decision (e.g. "the big sprocket is for emergencies only") or simply laziness (i.e. "we already had the individual sprockets designed for 10-42")?
Primoz
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Primoz 10/19/2021 4:34am
10/19/2021 4:34am
Since I'm not a Sram employee and never was, I can never be certain. But it's quite clear that with very minimal tooling changes in regards to the whole product (changing only one of 12 rings and nothing in the production process) they achieved 1 more tooth than Shimano. Plus one and the timing (and the unnatural jump between the two gears) make it quite clear it's "laziness".

It's actually very smart and cost effective (ao much for laziness then) and most people probably don't mind it, it's probably mostly armchair engineers in the Internet who are really salty about it.
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FLFlatLander 10/19/2021 4:38am
10/19/2021 4:38am
Primoz wrote:
Since I'm not a Sram employee and never was, I can never be certain. But it's quite clear that with very minimal tooling changes in regards...
Since I'm not a Sram employee and never was, I can never be certain. But it's quite clear that with very minimal tooling changes in regards to the whole product (changing only one of 12 rings and nothing in the production process) they achieved 1 more tooth than Shimano. Plus one and the timing (and the unnatural jump between the two gears) make it quite clear it's "laziness".

It's actually very smart and cost effective (ao much for laziness then) and most people probably don't mind it, it's probably mostly armchair engineers in the Internet who are really salty about it.
Yesterday I was with a woman who was honestly using her 50 (might have been a 52) on some technical steep uphills...bike size XS on 27's - thank god she had it or she would have been walking. While I can not recall ever needing my 50, that does not mean that someone who uses it is lazy.
Primoz
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Primoz 10/19/2021 4:46am
10/19/2021 4:46am
Go back and read the posts again. Thoroughly.
FLFlatLander 10/19/2021 4:56am
10/19/2021 4:56am
Primoz wrote:
Go back and read the posts again. Thoroughly.
Huh? That requires time. This is the internet, we must jump to immediate conclusions and make our opines based on fragments of reality. Works great for about 50% of the folks in the US! :-)

Now, off to work (where we get to lay people off to get under 100 staff members). Fun day.
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Primoz
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Primoz 10/19/2021 4:58am
10/19/2021 4:58am
Does that mean you now see what kind of laziness was discussed?
metadave
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metadave 10/21/2021 1:16pm
10/21/2021 1:16pm
Fyi, after some desperation when parts weren't available this summer, local riders who just wanted to be able to ride just asked me to get their bikes going with whatever.

This is when I found out that Shimano 11, 12 and eagle are all to a certain degree, completely interchangeable. The only issue I had was an SX derailleur with a GS SLX 11 speed which I somewhat blame on how poorly the sx shifter worked. My friends been on an XT 11 derailleur with his GX Eagle drivetrain for a month with zero issues. He says it shifts smoother than the GX did. I do find the 11 speed Shimano a smidge clunky compared to the hyperglide+ but otherwise is dead on every shift. The B-tension was a smidge high but not bad.
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brash
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brash 10/21/2021 1:35pm
10/21/2021 1:35pm
yep, been playing around with AXS mech on 12 speed shimano ecosystem, works almost flawlessly. Not as good as a full SRAM setup, but still very good.
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