Should There Be a 29er DH Class and 27.5 DH Class at World Cups?

MPH24
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6/7/2017 3:36pm
dingus wrote:
I think it would depend what mistake you make. If it's going off line maybe the 29er would manage better, but if you stalled, on paper...
I think it would depend what mistake you make. If it's going off line maybe the 29er would manage better, but if you stalled, on paper, the 29er would take more effort to get going again.
Sure, but you're very unlikely to do well if you stall on any wheel size.
nickb01
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6/7/2017 5:05pm
So, so far the actual racing data shows not much obvious superiority (when 3/5 sections were ridden fastest on 27.5) and from what I have seen from the daily track videos aren't as enjoyable to watch as a spectator - a personal opinion but looks like this is shared by others.

Bars and suspension are minute personal and technical differences, wheelsize is a less subtle handling difference and is where almost all sports and standardized. I believe it should be capped at 27.5 just to remove all the BS and like Loic would say, keep it fun to watch. DH shouldn't devolve into racing fireroads super duper fast again...
Gnarnia420
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6/7/2017 5:26pm
JayDawger wrote:
I just watched Minaars run and then Rats run from 2014 on 26". Must say the 26" are much better to watch from a viewer perspective...
I just watched Minaars run and then Rats run from 2014 on 26". Must say the 26" are much better to watch from a viewer perspective. The 29er is just not as lively or loose. Sure they are faster but quite boring to watch. #bringback26
Those two riders have *always* had extremely different styles. Rat will look more lose on 29" wheels than Greggy on 24". Just sayin...
JayDawger wrote:




Watch Greg in 2013 and compare it to Ft. Bill 2017. The big wheels make it look so boring. #loicisright
The little wheels make it look like Minar is a skinny gorilla on a BMX bike.
But still #tweener4lyfe, keep it rowdy.
JLutzy
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6/7/2017 6:01pm
If I'm not Mistaken I'm sure in the live feed the times were saying Connor Fearon was fastest of the day through the pinball section not Gwin.
kidwoo
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6/7/2017 8:38pm
JLutzy wrote:
If I'm not Mistaken I'm sure in the live feed the times were saying Connor Fearon was fastest of the day through the pinball section not...
If I'm not Mistaken I'm sure in the live feed the times were saying Connor Fearon was fastest of the day through the pinball section not Gwin.
He sure looked the awesome-est.
AdamO
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6/7/2017 11:52pm
I'm doing stats also and still wondering how redbull count the time of conor fearon at pinball section. It was sth like 10 seconds...
Pslide
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6/8/2017 3:24am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2017 3:40am
I think the UCI should mandate 27.5 only. Why? Because, despite the above analysis, teams are saying it is measurable quicker. They are also saying it is only good for "big" people. That means big people now have an advantage over smaller people. Many sports regulate tire size. Yes, DH should be the formula 1 of Mtb, but not at the expense of fairness.

To put it another way, it's like teams saying that we have a new technology that will make you go 2 seconds quicker, but if you are under 5'4" it doesn't work, sorry.
LTrumpore
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6/8/2017 4:34am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2017 4:48am
Pslide wrote:
I think the UCI should mandate 27.5 only. Why? Because, despite the above analysis, teams are saying it is measurable quicker. They are also saying it...
I think the UCI should mandate 27.5 only. Why? Because, despite the above analysis, teams are saying it is measurable quicker. They are also saying it is only good for "big" people. That means big people now have an advantage over smaller people. Many sports regulate tire size. Yes, DH should be the formula 1 of Mtb, but not at the expense of fairness.

To put it another way, it's like teams saying that we have a new technology that will make you go 2 seconds quicker, but if you are under 5'4" it doesn't work, sorry.
Casey Brown (5'3) and Katie Winton (5'2) have opted for 29ers the past 2 years. This whole 29er-is-unfair-to-short-people is, at this point, just internet myth. It clearly doesn't seem to apply with long travel enduro/all-mtn bikes, and no one under 5'8 has used one in WC DH yet. At this point teams are still making 29 work by modifying swingarms to existing front triangles, more proof of concept or full fledged protos at this point, and yet somehow it's already been settled that short riders are definitely going to be SOL?

Aside from a very small number of racers, journalists, and engineers no one has even ridden one at this point.
bizutch
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6/8/2017 5:36am
I always think back to something Nicolas Vouillous (sp?) said back in the day about losing a race, I think at Nevegal.
They asked him what he thought of a big open section, maybe fire road? He said "On that section, I could feel bigger riders passing me, but I tried not to think about it."

I want to say it was the race that Rockwell won Worlds where the advantage was to a bigger rider in the windy conditions with power whose weight could help them punch through the wind.

Sometimes, just your body type alone can give you an advantage on a course. Guys like GM, Peaty and Nathan Rennie changed that perception over the years though. Huge guys with tons of power and incredibly technical skills in the tight, twisty and twitchy raw sections.

Everyone says Sam Hill's corner speed was unreal at his peak. I still want to see if they throw enough corners, chicanes and speed killers into a course if the 29ers don't become cumbersome. It looked like the 29er was a BURDEN to Myriam Nicole to KEEP the wheels turning.
jeff.brines
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6/8/2017 7:07am
Funny how much of this keeps coming back to the tracks, not the wheels... Those are two separate arguments IMO.
JayDawger
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6/8/2017 8:37am
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The riders that are running the 29er are doing so on smooth not so steep tracks. I bet Graves would do better on a 650b.
jeff.brines
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6/8/2017 8:49am
JayDawger wrote:
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The...
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The riders that are running the 29er are doing so on smooth not so steep tracks. I bet Graves would do better on a 650b.
Except for this dude who is leading...also named Greg. Wink

Plenty of 29" bikes near/at the top. Its a mixed bag on all tracks.

sspomer
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6/8/2017 8:50am
JayDawger wrote:
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The...
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The riders that are running the 29er are doing so on smooth not so steep tracks. I bet Graves would do better on a 650b.
not true about yeti


doesn't keene run 29er full time too?
jeff.brines
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6/8/2017 8:59am
JayDawger wrote:
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The...
clearly there is no advantage of 29er in the EWS circuit... 90% of the top 10 are on 650b. Yeti guys are riding the 650b. The riders that are running the 29er are doing so on smooth not so steep tracks. I bet Graves would do better on a 650b.
sspomer wrote:
not true about yeti


doesn't keene run 29er full time too?
Yeah, Keene does full time, Cody is more into the 5.5c (though he isn't near the top yet), Graves does too right?

Plenty of top dudes do, and plenty of top dudes might if they had the option. Dailly, Maes, Melamed, Wallner etc.

What is interesting is the guys that do have the option but opt for their sponsor's 27.5" variant. Hill, Rude, etc
JayDawger
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6/8/2017 9:04am
Keene's best result was on 650b at Whistler with a 3rd. Graves hasn't found his stride on his 29er. I think in EWS there is a lot more acceleration/de-acceleration where the smaller wheels perform better but that's just my theory. Lot of factors in play.
jeff.brines
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6/8/2017 9:14am
JayDawger wrote:
Keene's best result was on 650b at Whistler with a 3rd. Graves hasn't found his stride on his 29er. I think in EWS there is a...
Keene's best result was on 650b at Whistler with a 3rd. Graves hasn't found his stride on his 29er. I think in EWS there is a lot more acceleration/de-acceleration where the smaller wheels perform better but that's just my theory. Lot of factors in play.
I always thought the fact XC guys go 29" not 27.5" was surprising for similar reasons. Climbing is really just constantly accelerating. I always figured a 27.5" bike would climb faster, at least on the steeper tracks, than 29"...clearly I'm wrong however.
MPH24
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6/8/2017 9:28am
The EWS is a good example. People on both types and whatever suits their style/preference. Spec and Yeti are good examples - SB6 and SB5.5 and Enduro and Stumpy (Keene v Graves).

Are more options a good thing? I find that whatever bike I am more comfortable on the better time have on the bike (both speed and fun). Loic (and those in that camp) say the 29er isn't as fun. Has anyone asked Greg which is more fun? He may say 29.

I say let people ride what they want. They results will shake out accordingly...
JayDawger
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6/8/2017 9:55am
MPH24 wrote:
The EWS is a good example. People on both types and whatever suits their style/preference. Spec and Yeti are good examples - SB6 and SB5.5 and...
The EWS is a good example. People on both types and whatever suits their style/preference. Spec and Yeti are good examples - SB6 and SB5.5 and Enduro and Stumpy (Keene v Graves).

Are more options a good thing? I find that whatever bike I am more comfortable on the better time have on the bike (both speed and fun). Loic (and those in that camp) say the 29er isn't as fun. Has anyone asked Greg which is more fun? He may say 29.

I say let people ride what they want. They results will shake out accordingly...
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI banned skinsuits because of image to the sport, they should ban the 29er as well. If/when all teams go 29er, viewership will drop as well.
jeff.brines
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6/8/2017 10:01am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2017 10:03am
JayDawger wrote:
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI...
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI banned skinsuits because of image to the sport, they should ban the 29er as well. If/when all teams go 29er, viewership will drop as well.
I'd argue its making people pay closer attention to the sport than ever before. Nobody is going to turn off the race because there is this thought in the back of certain viewers minds riders aren't getting as rowdy as before.

And again, if that is in fact the case, that is more a track problem to me, not a bike problem. More to my point, I bet a lot of these riders look far more ragged on outdated suspension too...maybe we bring that back?

A slightly larger wheel, under a dude like Greg, is no different than Danny riding a 27.5" wheel as far as proportions go - we're all reading into this way too much.

Good news (for proponents like me) is unless a bunch of teams rally behind "the internet", I don't see 29" going away.


LTrumpore
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6/8/2017 10:31am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2017 10:33am
MPH24 wrote:
The EWS is a good example. People on both types and whatever suits their style/preference. Spec and Yeti are good examples - SB6 and SB5.5 and...
The EWS is a good example. People on both types and whatever suits their style/preference. Spec and Yeti are good examples - SB6 and SB5.5 and Enduro and Stumpy (Keene v Graves).

Are more options a good thing? I find that whatever bike I am more comfortable on the better time have on the bike (both speed and fun). Loic (and those in that camp) say the 29er isn't as fun. Has anyone asked Greg which is more fun? He may say 29.

I say let people ride what they want. They results will shake out accordingly...
JayDawger wrote:
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI...
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI banned skinsuits because of image to the sport, they should ban the 29er as well. If/when all teams go 29er, viewership will drop as well.
GM's bike also has different geo than previous? That might make it more comfortable but the fact that 29ers look horrible on track. If the UCI banned skinsuits because of image to the sport, they should ban the 29er as well. If/when all teams go 29er, viewership will drop as well.

I quite seriously doubt that.

Greg's 2015 winning run: http://www.mtb-downhill.net/greg-minnaars-winning-run-fort-william-wc-2…

2016 winning run (scroll down): https://dirtmountainbike.com/videos/season-world-cup-downhill-winning-r…

2017 winning run: https://youtu.be/Pt3B1ahTFBs

I suppose the eyes will see what they want to see, but I'd be way more critical of camera placement than a measly few cm of rim diameter.
taldfind
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6/8/2017 10:54am
I love this thread, gives me so much to think about and process. Many good points on both sides.

That being said, one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the impact 29er DH bikes could have on DH bikes available to the public. I've seen multiple comments stating that 29ers fit taller riders better. I can't say whether or not it is true, but if it is, we could be starting the end of DH.

How? Well, DH bikes make a very small contribution to the income of most bike companies. So I imagine that most companies will not follow in Trek's footsteps and offer both a 650b and a 29er DH frame. And if 29ers prove to be consistently faster or in greater demand by their racers, then most companies will have to ditch 650b for budget reasons. And if 29ers really are only good for tall riders, then we will see a large portion of the population (and especially the female portion) unable to really get along with DH bikes. And if they can never really feel comfortable on a DH bike, they won't buy one, let alone race one. And all forms of racing need new racers to join the ranks every year, or that race form will die.

Now is this doomsday prophecy going to happen? I don't know, their are way to many "ifs" that have no definitive answer yet. But I hope that the industry is being mindful of this, because while there is potential here to make DH bikes even more awesome, there is also potential for the industry to shoot itself in the foot. Faster is better, absolutely, but only if tech that makes the bike faster is available to all sized people (at least in theory.)

So to answer the question that opened this thread, perhaps a 650b and 29er class could be a good option, in that it would keep DH open to riders or all heights, but could also result in fewer companies making DH bikes. And less competition for DH rider's money could result in higher prices.
dingus
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6/8/2017 11:07am
Danny Hart said he was getting faster times on the 29er over the 650b and he's on the smaller end of the spectrum.
6/8/2017 4:04pm
Are you guys gonna or have you made a video like the one you made from Lourdes?

That was great
jeff.brines
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6/9/2017 7:12am
taldfind wrote:
I love this thread, gives me so much to think about and process. Many good points on both sides. That being said, one thing I haven't...
I love this thread, gives me so much to think about and process. Many good points on both sides.

That being said, one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the impact 29er DH bikes could have on DH bikes available to the public. I've seen multiple comments stating that 29ers fit taller riders better. I can't say whether or not it is true, but if it is, we could be starting the end of DH.

How? Well, DH bikes make a very small contribution to the income of most bike companies. So I imagine that most companies will not follow in Trek's footsteps and offer both a 650b and a 29er DH frame. And if 29ers prove to be consistently faster or in greater demand by their racers, then most companies will have to ditch 650b for budget reasons. And if 29ers really are only good for tall riders, then we will see a large portion of the population (and especially the female portion) unable to really get along with DH bikes. And if they can never really feel comfortable on a DH bike, they won't buy one, let alone race one. And all forms of racing need new racers to join the ranks every year, or that race form will die.

Now is this doomsday prophecy going to happen? I don't know, their are way to many "ifs" that have no definitive answer yet. But I hope that the industry is being mindful of this, because while there is potential here to make DH bikes even more awesome, there is also potential for the industry to shoot itself in the foot. Faster is better, absolutely, but only if tech that makes the bike faster is available to all sized people (at least in theory.)

So to answer the question that opened this thread, perhaps a 650b and 29er class could be a good option, in that it would keep DH open to riders or all heights, but could also result in fewer companies making DH bikes. And less competition for DH rider's money could result in higher prices.
FWIW, this has been touched on.

I think the thing that has long been coming is less and less companies investing in DH, this is independent of the whole 27.5 or 29" thing.

DH isn't going away. So long as there is a demand (and there is), SOME companies will find it worthwhile to keep producing DH bikes, be it for slim profit or for image/marketing alone. Will there be 100 options for you to chose from 10 years from now? Probably not.

My prediction is there will be a handful of big brands (akin to moto) producing DH bikes. I also predict more in-house branded parts on these bikes. We won't see technology progressing at the breakneck speed we've seen, with big changes every 4-5 years, the same way we see big changes in motos every 4-5 years. This allows these companies to eek the most out of the molds before trying something (slightly) new. This will be the case in DH as well as other types of riding.

Pricing will also have fallen.

So yeah, DH isn't "in trouble" but the days of having a crap ton of options is probably going to be hard for the market to support. Pricing and manufacturing capabilities will force out the little guys.... not wheels.
matmattmatthew
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6/9/2017 8:54am
To the guys saying they don't like 29ers because they aren't "rowdy" and make the racers look to composed/smooth/whatever. Do you have the same feelings about Telemtry and custom tuned suspension? I would argue that advancements in suspension have made far more impact on making the bikes and racers look less "rowdy".

I honestly think some of the hate towards 29ers comes from guys thinking it means they will lose "bro points" or something. When 29ers came out it was predominantly spandex clad XC racers on hardtails riding them and it seems like each year there was a 29er that creeped closer to the the opposite end of the mountain biking spectrum (DH). There was the Niner WFO, Santa Cruz tall boy, Enduro 29, Evil the following and most recently the Santa Cruz Hightower, Yeti SB5.5 and Evil Wreconking. Each bike came with high praise and most Bro's were able to sleep at night because they would tell themselves "At least we still have DH to ourselves." Now that the 29er revolution has finally moved to the darkside, some guys feel like some of the "soul" of DH is gone.


The two different camps on the 29er debate kind of remind me of Palmer vs Vouilloz. Palmer wanted to win but also wanted to look cool while doing it. He cared about image just as much as winning. Nico would have raced a potato down the mountain if he thought it was faster. He cared about image as well, but winning by any means necessary was his ultimate goal. And at the end of the day, the sport is what it is today because of both of them.


::steps down from soapbox::
jeff.brines
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6/9/2017 9:05am
^^^...slow clap from me
JayDawger
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6/9/2017 9:47am
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
matmattmatthew
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6/9/2017 9:59am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2017 10:07am
JayDawger wrote:
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
It wasn't completely about image. It was about making sponsors happy. Mountain biking is one of the few sports where you can dress and ride the same equipment as your favorite pros. When guys go and ride with their friends at the bike park they don't wear skinsuits, so clothing sponsors wanted Johnny DH to see his favorite racer wearing their latest line of pants and jerseys. It doesn't help any clothing sponsors if the top guys are wearing one off skin suits that 99% of casual DH riders would never wear. Same thing applies to the visor rule.

Image is also subjective. I personally love seeing the guys on 29ers skip over rocks and completely soak up small bumps. It's racing, if I need to get my fix of "rowdy" riding I'll just watch a Ratboy or Phil Atwill edit.
LTrumpore
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6/9/2017 10:17am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2017 10:25am
JayDawger wrote:
If UCI bans skinsuits for image, shouldn't they do it for 29ers as well?
Keep in mind that development of dedicated DH apparel rather than repurposed moto gear was just taking form 8-10 years ago. Riders/teams' apparel sponsors do not make or sell skin suits, they want their riders wearing what they sell and be able to build an image around certain riders (see Troy Lee and Fairclough as a prime example). Skin suits had/have tremendous potential to limit what is already a rather shallow pool of financial resources. Personally, I think the coordination of frame manufacturers, kits, helmets, and riders has been really great to see the past few years. The new kits and frame paint jobs that pop up at each round are a real highlight that's not likely to have happened otherwise. At the end of the day I want to see riders getting paid, and the push for a ban was as much out of concern for opportunity costs as it was 'image.' (though I believe the official line from the UCI is that it was a safety issues?).

Frame manufacturers can make and will sell 29 inch DH bikes. Any industry leverage applied in this case is likely to be in favor of 29ers, not against them. Regardless of a brands personal feelings, any initiative by the UCI to limit current or further development is going to raise concerns about their ability/right to freely innovate (i.e. design, market, differentiate, and sell product). Conversely, the push to ban skin suits was in part to protect/encourage these same opportunities and I would argue in terms of current MTB apparel we are all better off for it.

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