influencers on Geometry & Suspension

w4s
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Verdi, NV US
2/12/2024 5:53pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2024 6:02pm
Simcik wrote:

And from my understanding, he essentially created I-Drive which GT used for decades. 

Maxipedia wrote:

Isn't i-Drive a Jim Busby creation?

Yes it was, I don't believe Alex/BCD ever worked for a mainstream brand and was mostly just making bikes for himself and trying out a bunch...

Yes it was, I don't believe Alex/BCD ever worked for a mainstream brand and was mostly just making bikes for himself and trying out a bunch of concepts

 

I can't really think of too many people that haven't already been mentioned. DW was a big one for me - the original DW bikes were really the first frames that could blend good bump performance and grip but still feel lively/pedal well. He really brought a much better understanding of kinematics that wasn't present in the mainstream before that.

 

Slightly related (and controversial?) is Charlie Curnutt and Foes - the stable platform damping idea was another thing that helped make bikes more versatile in a lot of ways. I'm not sure how many people realise that the Patent and concept of those early Curnutt and 5th element shocks survived in the Fox Rp23/CTD and RC4 boost valve dampers up until around 2015! In a way that contributed to the idea of long travel bikes being ridden all day (which we take for granted now) before frame design really caught up and we didn't have to rely on excessive damping to make something pedal half decent! 

I had an Iron Horse 6 point with adjustable travel Lyrik and Fox airshock that literally had zero damping.  that bike was so much fun!

How about Romic and their desert racing inspired twin tube shocks using a  bearing to keep the shock locked out until enough force was exerted to open valve flow,  I thought 5th element kinda piggy backed off their idea?

1
2/12/2024 11:20pm
Yes it was, I don't believe Alex/BCD ever worked for a mainstream brand and was mostly just making bikes for himself and trying out a bunch...

Yes it was, I don't believe Alex/BCD ever worked for a mainstream brand and was mostly just making bikes for himself and trying out a bunch of concepts

 

I can't really think of too many people that haven't already been mentioned. DW was a big one for me - the original DW bikes were really the first frames that could blend good bump performance and grip but still feel lively/pedal well. He really brought a much better understanding of kinematics that wasn't present in the mainstream before that.

 

Slightly related (and controversial?) is Charlie Curnutt and Foes - the stable platform damping idea was another thing that helped make bikes more versatile in a lot of ways. I'm not sure how many people realise that the Patent and concept of those early Curnutt and 5th element shocks survived in the Fox Rp23/CTD and RC4 boost valve dampers up until around 2015! In a way that contributed to the idea of long travel bikes being ridden all day (which we take for granted now) before frame design really caught up and we didn't have to rely on excessive damping to make something pedal half decent! 

I don't want to roam offtopic here, but regarding your paragraph with DW: I have never owned or ridden a bike with DW suspension (although I am sure they are excellent), but those are my feelings regarding VPP. Except the various Santa Cruz bikes I have ridden, I also had/have two Intenses with VPP that I absolutely love. One of them is the M9, which probably still is my favourite all time DH bike, but I also have a Tracer VP with 26” wheels. I wasn't sold enough on enduro to have my own bike, so I rode a borrowed one that stuck with me for a while. When my buddy wanted it back, I bought the Tracer as an emergency, because it was the only decent bike in my size that was around. I put better suspension on it, excellent wheels, good tires, 1x transmission and had with it what probably is my best year riding. I loved how plush it was, but at the same time so nimble, poppy and light. I sold it to a friend, when I had to raise  money for my first 29” new enduro bike, but then bought it back when I had the occasion. I keep it as bike that I borrow to friends, if they need one. That bike brought joy to many people.

Anyway, great talk here, thank you.
Mx

1
chasejj
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Location
Alamo, CA US
2/13/2024 10:49am
Gary Fisher was doing 29er back in 1989, (I have been able to grab a Sphinx, the first "mass produced" 29er mtb). He also pioneered press...

Gary Fisher was doing 29er back in 1989, (I have been able to grab a Sphinx, the first "mass produced" 29er mtb). He also pioneered press fit BB (bearings secured by clips), oversize headset and  wider BB, he was also pretty early on titanium and alu frame and even made a composite cromo rear triangle/alu front triangle, I think he also also pretty early on the first full suspension with the lawhill system just after Cannondale..

Maxipedia wrote:
I don't know of a 29er in the 80's (I am wondering who made the tires), but I have one of those Fisher frames with a...

I don't know of a 29er in the 80's (I am wondering who made the tires), but I have one of those Fisher frames with a proprietary press-fit  BB and the 1.1/4” head tube. It is interesting how Klein made something similar on the Attitude and the Adroit around the same time and both Fisher and Klein ended up under Trek, who sucked the soul out of both. I have one of the last ”real” Kleins, made around the time Trek took over, a 1996 Attitude in ”Team” colorway. I have no clue what the name of the Fisher is, I got it with pretty bad white paint on it and had it painted gun smoke grey.

Mx

I think stock tires were made by Fisher but remember at the time mtb tires were something between 29x1.75 or 29X1.5 and they were pretty commonly...

I think stock tires were made by Fisher but remember at the time mtb tires were something between 29x1.75 or 29X1.5 and they were pretty commonly used by CX or touring bikes, 26 were actually more of an anomaly. The struggle for 29 mtb tires came way later when they were a need of very wide and aggressive tires.
The sphinx was designed for mixed suface.
Sphinx 1992-750x501

One thing about Fisher is he was really a guy who took other people's ideas and marketed them effectively. That was always his gig (knowing people back then who were active in the Marin scene). Innovators were Charlie Cunningham, Tom Ritchey, Steve Potts, Jim Turner, Keith Bontrager, and a host of others. He did push those ideas to much sales success though. Once rear suspension came along the field of influencers widened considerably..

1
2/13/2024 3:21pm
chasejj wrote:
One thing about Fisher is he was really a guy who took other people's ideas and marketed them effectively. That was always his gig (knowing people...

One thing about Fisher is he was really a guy who took other people's ideas and marketed them effectively. That was always his gig (knowing people back then who were active in the Marin scene). Innovators were Charlie Cunningham, Tom Ritchey, Steve Potts, Jim Turner, Keith Bontrager, and a host of others. He did push those ideas to much sales success though. Once rear suspension came along the field of influencers widened considerably..

How did he take somebody else's idea with 29-ers? He literally is the guy who pushed this thing, went all in with his brand before it was cool and had to see it all slip away and then catch on later, when his name became only an afterthought as a ”signature line” on Trek. Give the man some credit and some flowers for this, he deserves it! I also mentioned his impact on geometry in the late 90's in my initial post on this thread, that is all him too. 130 to 80 mm stems is something that you can definitely feel, and the longer top tubes and shorter chainstays too.

Mx

chasejj
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Joined
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Location
Alamo, CA US
2/14/2024 10:38am

No way did Fisher invent the idea of 29ers. Marin co guys were using fattened 700C(29ers) for a while prior to that campaign.They were on 26" for strength purposes on many bikes as they developed. But anyone with a brain knew 700C rolled better. Brakes and chassis had to catch up.

2/14/2024 11:51am

I am not talking about who invented it, but about who PUSHED it and bet his all on this card. It was Fisher. 

Mx

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louiesquared
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12/7/2022
Location
Bentonville, AR US
2/14/2024 1:10pm

Wasn't Mondraker the first brand to embrace the move to Lower, Longer and Slacker?

1
2/14/2024 1:27pm
Maxipedia wrote:

I am not talking about who invented it, but about who PUSHED it and bet his all on this card. It was Fisher. 

Mx

Yup, its one thing to cook up an idea and another thing to make it a viable, production ready complete bike. Fisher did huge amounts of work on that front, which meant big changes in tooling and components for the whole bike - frame manufacture, forks, wheel and tyres all needed to change to make it happen. Since they were the guys to really stick their neck out for 29ers, they're the ones I mostly associate with it. 

re: mondraker and long/low/slack - it's hard to pinpoint that one, I for sure remember the orignal ironhorse sundays being significantly lower than others, especially in the BB and head tube area. A lot of people were following around 2008-2009 with bikes like the DW Turner DHR prototypes (that guy popping up again!) starting to resemble the things we have now. Mondraker were the guys to take it wayyyyy further than the rest, and in some ways inspired a lot of trends, but also showed there was kind of a limit to them as well. 

 

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