E-bike talk: not tech rumor derailment

ebruner
Posts
358
Joined
3/29/2018
Location
Tustin, CA US
1 day ago Edited Date/Time 1 day ago
AndehM wrote:
They're dodging the issues regarding impacts to access that having stupid levels of power create.  Besides the fact that they make it easy to exceed the...

They're dodging the issues regarding impacts to access that having stupid levels of power create.  Besides the fact that they make it easy to exceed the speed limit using only a VPN, that absurd level of power makes it easy for riders to hit the 20mph limit in locations that other trail users are not expecting to encounter bikes going 20mph uphill.  Saying that all that extra power makes it easier for beginners to control their bikes and improves skills is also a flat out lie - even without that extra power beginner riders were overwhelmed by run-on and controlling the bike in corners or over technical terrain.  They don't have years of muscle memory that enable them to ratchet cranks, track stand, or even modulate brakes.  Letting them get up to the speed limit faster is just going to create more accidents.

TimBud wrote:
Then why is it fine for a 16/17 year old to buy a muscle car without years of driving experience?No one hates Ford/GM for making more...

Then why is it fine for a 16/17 year old to buy a muscle car without years of driving experience?

No one hates Ford/GM for making more powerful cars.

DJI/Avinox are not like Lewis who have photocopied and the improved something. They have designed, engineered and built something from scratch and done it way batter than everyone else. Giving them all a kick in their blasé arse in the process… Bosch and Spesh have hitched their skirts up a bit but they can do better.

The new 700w Avinox battery is incredible (not just another repackaged Panasonic. Complete cell and wiring redesign with only 6% less burn time than the 800. Fuckin fair play to them.

For years we’ve been voting in leaders who stifle and throttle advancement (in the name of equality and environmental whatevers) so the Chinese took on the task on our behalf. They’ve smashed it. And you hate them for it. The irony is hilarious.

I appreciate your perspective as a motorcycle and car nut from age 13 on.  I just want to point out that one of the key difference between vehicles being overpowered and bikes being overpowered... is that when you get a speeding ticket, disorderly conduct ticket (display of power) or wreck your car, they don't close off access to the roads to everyone. They just take away your license, impound your vehicle and/or throw you in jail.  There is no mechanic for that in the trail space and thus what happens is that the easy answer is to just remove the problem entirely by removing access to emtbs.  Extend that to the problem being that you can barely tell the difference between emtbs and mtbs, and the answer is removing mountain bikes.  

The key about this sport is that it basically doesn't exist without trails.  Trails require access to lands and deals with land managers and jurisdictions.  We all know bureaucratic organizations are anything if not lazy, so it would be crazy to assume they won't take the path of least resistance and easiest/cheapest enforcement.  That is the concern here.   The adult in me wants to believe that more and more power doesn't matter because just because it's there, doesn't mean you have to use it.  However, the 45 year old man-child in me that will still hoon the ever loving crap out of a motorcycle or car... knows otherwise.  

I will say that hiking or trail running either alone, or with your family in shared mtb spaces gives you a lot of perspective.  It is at times, very not fun to be sharing space with the average mountain biker... less fun to be sharing space with the average ebiker.  

11
TimBud
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541
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GB
1 day ago

No, but they implement other restrictions with speed cameras, average speed cameras, chicanes, speed bumps  and other traffic “calming” measures.


The biggest issues is and always will be a lack of education/mentoring… and also our protection/enforcement agencies being stripped back by centralised government, so they can’t do anything anyway. Anything that does happen as a result is normally a kneejerk decision that rarely has a positive longterm impact.

 

There are 2 new generations getting into riding now. Those of us that rode in the 90s and 00s  were the prime gen that grew up and established it all. The current gen are entitled kids that got given medals just for turning up and they have zero boundaries and still get away with doing what they want and if you say anything to them (no matter how constructive) you’re racist/peado/genderist and simply ignored. 
And then there’s the other generation that missed out on it all when they were younger, they’re the ones spending the most money (and massively propping up the industry fyi) but with complete ignorance of all the learing and effort that has gone on to build and establish the sport previously.

 

7
grinch
Posts
256
Joined
10/15/2013
Location
CA
1 day ago
AndehM wrote:
They're dodging the issues regarding impacts to access that having stupid levels of power create.  Besides the fact that they make it easy to exceed the...

They're dodging the issues regarding impacts to access that having stupid levels of power create.  Besides the fact that they make it easy to exceed the speed limit using only a VPN, that absurd level of power makes it easy for riders to hit the 20mph limit in locations that other trail users are not expecting to encounter bikes going 20mph uphill.  Saying that all that extra power makes it easier for beginners to control their bikes and improves skills is also a flat out lie - even without that extra power beginner riders were overwhelmed by run-on and controlling the bike in corners or over technical terrain.  They don't have years of muscle memory that enable them to ratchet cranks, track stand, or even modulate brakes.  Letting them get up to the speed limit faster is just going to create more accidents.

TimBud wrote:
Then why is it fine for a 16/17 year old to buy a muscle car without years of driving experience?No one hates Ford/GM for making more...

Then why is it fine for a 16/17 year old to buy a muscle car without years of driving experience?

No one hates Ford/GM for making more powerful cars.

DJI/Avinox are not like Lewis who have photocopied and the improved something. They have designed, engineered and built something from scratch and done it way batter than everyone else. Giving them all a kick in their blasé arse in the process… Bosch and Spesh have hitched their skirts up a bit but they can do better.

The new 700w Avinox battery is incredible (not just another repackaged Panasonic. Complete cell and wiring redesign with only 6% less burn time than the 800. Fuckin fair play to them.

For years we’ve been voting in leaders who stifle and throttle advancement (in the name of equality and environmental whatevers) so the Chinese took on the task on our behalf. They’ve smashed it. And you hate them for it. The irony is hilarious.

ebruner wrote:
I appreciate your perspective as a motorcycle and car nut from age 13 on.  I just want to point out that one of the key difference...

I appreciate your perspective as a motorcycle and car nut from age 13 on.  I just want to point out that one of the key difference between vehicles being overpowered and bikes being overpowered... is that when you get a speeding ticket, disorderly conduct ticket (display of power) or wreck your car, they don't close off access to the roads to everyone. They just take away your license, impound your vehicle and/or throw you in jail.  There is no mechanic for that in the trail space and thus what happens is that the easy answer is to just remove the problem entirely by removing access to emtbs.  Extend that to the problem being that you can barely tell the difference between emtbs and mtbs, and the answer is removing mountain bikes.  

The key about this sport is that it basically doesn't exist without trails.  Trails require access to lands and deals with land managers and jurisdictions.  We all know bureaucratic organizations are anything if not lazy, so it would be crazy to assume they won't take the path of least resistance and easiest/cheapest enforcement.  That is the concern here.   The adult in me wants to believe that more and more power doesn't matter because just because it's there, doesn't mean you have to use it.  However, the 45 year old man-child in me that will still hoon the ever loving crap out of a motorcycle or car... knows otherwise.  

I will say that hiking or trail running either alone, or with your family in shared mtb spaces gives you a lot of perspective.  It is at times, very not fun to be sharing space with the average mountain biker... less fun to be sharing space with the average ebiker.  

With 1500w youre lucky to "rinse' it for 30minutes. With your moto or sports car you "rinse" it for hrs then fill up and continue. 

 I think most people will be using lower power modes to get a little longer ride

bikelurker
Posts
180
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
Bilbao, Vizcaya ES
11 hours ago
iceman2058 wrote:
Faced with criticism regarding the power output of its latest motor system, Avinox has recently put out the following statement (which is essentially the same messages...

Faced with criticism regarding the power output of its latest motor system, Avinox has recently put out the following statement (which is essentially the same messages they provided in our forum hotseat on e-bike power a few months ago):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In mountain biking, power is often misunderstood. For some, higher motor output raises concerns about safety, trail impact, or component wear. For Avinox, power is not about excess, but about possibility. Power can help more people ride farther, climb steeper, and tackle terrain that might otherwise be out of reach.

Our approach to power is rooted in a simple principle: technology should expand access to mountain biking while preserving safety, reliability, and rider control.

Power Is About Capability, Not Speed
When people hear that an eMTB motor delivers high power, they often express concerns about danger, assuming higher power also means higher speed. In reality, these are two very different things. Speed is what ultimately determines safety risk. Power is the force that helps riders accelerate, especially at low speeds and in demanding situations such as steep climbs, technical ascents, and navigation around obstacles.

Avinox systems comply fully with all applicable speed regulations, and we strongly support the implementation and enforcement of speed limits. That means our high power output is not designed to make riders go faster than allowed. It is designed to make difficult terrain more manageable. Whether it is clearing a rocky ledge, climbing a steep incline, or helping a less experienced rider maintain momentum, more power can make mountain biking both easier and safer.

Safety Is a Function of Control
Any bicycle can gain significant speed on a descent, whether it is powered or not. This is not unique to eMTBs. The safety challenge in mountain biking is managing speed, maintaining traction, and giving riders the confidence to overcome high-resistance obstacles in complex terrain.

Avinox focuses on delivering power precisely when it is needed. Our intelligent assistance algorithms provide smooth, predictable support that helps riders maintain control in various situations. In many cases, more available power improves safety by reducing the likelihood of stalling, losing balance, or being forced to dismount in difficult terrain.

Flexible Power for Real-World Riding
Different riders face different challenges. A steep technical climb requires a different level of support than a flowing cross-country trail. A loaded cargo bike climbing a hill has different needs than a lightweight commuter.

Avinox addresses this with customizable riding modes and user-adjustable settings, allowing riders to tailor assistance - including maximum output - to match the terrain and their personal preferences. This flexibility provides support when it matters most while maintaining efficiency and control.

Democratizing Mountain Biking
Mountain biking should be accessible to more people, regardless of fitness level, body type, age, or physical limitations. High-powered systems help make that vision a reality. With greater assistance, riders can:

  • Conquer steeper climbs
  • Ride longer distances
  • Explore more challenging trails
  • Recover more easily from technical mistakes
  • Build confidence faster

For heavier riders, riders with disabilities, and those hauling cargo, higher power can be considered essential, rather than a luxury. A rigid, one-size-fits-all power limit risks excluding riders who benefit most from additional assistance.

Designed to Protect the Bike
Power only matters if the system remains reliable. Avinox carefully balances performance with durability, avoiding the trap of increasing output solely to claim bigger numbers. Advanced sensors and software continuously monitor riding conditions and adjust torque delivery to protect key components.

For example, the system automatically reduces power during gear shifts, minimizing drivetrain stress and extending the life of chains, cassettes, and derailleurs. Smooth, precisely controlled power delivery also reduces wear on tires, brakes, and wheelsets.

System-Level Optimization
A high-performance motor cannot be developed in isolation. Avinox takes a complete system approach, optimizing the entire bicycle platform to handle elevated power output, including:

  • Tires
  • Brakes
  • Wheels
  • Frame design
  • Battery architecture
  • Charging systems
  • Software controls

This integrated engineering ensures that riders benefit from maximum capability without compromising safety or reliability.

Higher Power Does Not Threaten the Industry
Some argue that offering more powerful motors could invite regulatory scrutiny or harm the industry. We believe that view oversimplifies a much more nuanced issue. Avinox supports responsible regulation and strict compliance with all applicable laws. At the same time, we believe innovation should not be constrained by arbitrary power limits that lack a clearly explained basis.

The industry benefits when manufacturers focus on solving real rider challenges and respecting the diverse needs of users. Progress should be guided by safety, performance, and accessibility, not by assumptions that more power is inherently problematic.

Beyond Power: The Full Avinox Advantage
Power is only one part of what makes Avinox different. Our commitment to innovation is reflected in every aspect of the system, including:

  • Compact and lightweight motor design
  • Outstanding power-to-weight ratio
  • Seamless hardware and software integration
  • Intelligent assistance algorithms
  • Lightweight, high-capacity batteries
  • Fast charging capabilities
  • Sophisticated system controls

Together, these technologies create a riding experience that feels intuitive, natural, and remarkably capable.

The Future of eMTB Performance
At Avinox, maximum power is not about pushing limits for the sake of headlines. It is about empowering more riders to experience mountain biking in ways that are safer, more enjoyable, and more inclusive. By combining high power with intelligent control, system-level engineering, and rider-focused innovation, Avinox is redefining what an eBike motor can do. Because when technology is thoughtfully designed, more power means more opportunity.

Democratizing mountain biking is the most Avinox I ever read this week

10 hours ago

There's a section of road to an overlook that's about the steepest asphalt around. 2nd lowest gear with a 32 front ring steep. 

 

On my buddies last-gen Amflow I kicked it into boost and hit the 20mph cutoff. Utterly insane power.

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