DJI's E-MTB Play: Avinox, Amflow and the Future Business of eebs

drjrich
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8/17/2021
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Carlsbad, CA US
1 day ago

CORRECTION:
I have decided to go with a BOSCH bike rather than an Avinox bike. Long story short... It still boiled down to packaging, as I found the right geo, bike, weight, and battery (for me) at a competitive price. NOT hating on Avinox, by the way. 

2
TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
20 hours ago
Primoz wrote:
Regarding the tuning and unlocking and all, France has it covered: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/france-bans-illegal-emtb-tuning/Don't know what it's like elsewhere, but over here in Slovenia people whizzing past...

Regarding the tuning and unlocking and all, France has it covered: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/france-bans-illegal-emtb-tuning/

Don't know what it's like elsewhere, but over here in Slovenia people whizzing past on electric scooters at mach chicken are a fairly common sight and are an accident waiting to happen. An unlocked ebike is not much better, maybe the control is a bit better than what you can do on a scooter... 

For those who didn't read the link, "If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now punishable by up to one-year imprisonment (two year for retailers) and up to a €30,000 fine."

For individuals: "anyone modifying their ebike to exceed the maximum authorized speed – currently 25 km/h for electric bicycles and 45 km/h for speed pedelecs – could now have their bike impounded, face one year in prison and fines of up to €30,000."

For "companies or professionals who manufacture, import, export, sell, rent or install devices that permit illegal tuning to increase an ebike’s maximum speed... :the penalties are even higher, with up to two years imprisonment and a fine of up to €30,000."

Dang. That law has some teeth on it.

3
19 hours ago Edited Date/Time 19 hours ago
TEAMROBOT wrote:
For those who didn't read the link, "If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now...

For those who didn't read the link, "If an individual or retailer are caught modifying an ebike to derestrict its maximum speed, the offence is now punishable by up to one-year imprisonment (two year for retailers) and up to a €30,000 fine."

For individuals: "anyone modifying their ebike to exceed the maximum authorized speed – currently 25 km/h for electric bicycles and 45 km/h for speed pedelecs – could now have their bike impounded, face one year in prison and fines of up to €30,000."

For "companies or professionals who manufacture, import, export, sell, rent or install devices that permit illegal tuning to increase an ebike’s maximum speed... :the penalties are even higher, with up to two years imprisonment and a fine of up to €30,000."

Dang. That law has some teeth on it.

may get some hate but I think that law is fair enough.
We dont need to be going mach 10 uphills - and i think Bosch is on the right track in increasing performance where its actually needed - on actual off climb trails, such as steep access hills/paths/roads at a sensible pace  - Do they need to be add Gradient sensors to allow motors such as the Avinox  to then increase the overall wattage available?(yes I know this contradicts what I first said)  I can see this controlling the flat speeds, additionally how do you get around it for say those who want to pedal over lets say 32kmph for jumps... (which i dont think is required on properly built jump lines)

However, I do think the introduction of DJI/amflow/avinox and its performance was required, this created a wave in the EMTB world and as such Specialized has already reduced Retail pricing by up to 25% - hopefully trek etc follow suit. As a side note, One would expect Bosch to lower its OEM cost to Bike brands to compete.

Only raising some questions and opinions open for debate.

 

1
Blake_Motley
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Location
Chula Vista, CA US
18 hours ago
may get some hate but I think that law is fair enough.We dont need to be going mach 10 uphills - and i think Bosch is...

may get some hate but I think that law is fair enough.
We dont need to be going mach 10 uphills - and i think Bosch is on the right track in increasing performance where its actually needed - on actual off climb trails, such as steep access hills/paths/roads at a sensible pace  - Do they need to be add Gradient sensors to allow motors such as the Avinox  to then increase the overall wattage available?(yes I know this contradicts what I first said)  I can see this controlling the flat speeds, additionally how do you get around it for say those who want to pedal over lets say 32kmph for jumps... (which i dont think is required on properly built jump lines)

However, I do think the introduction of DJI/amflow/avinox and its performance was required, this created a wave in the EMTB world and as such Specialized has already reduced Retail pricing by up to 25% - hopefully trek etc follow suit. As a side note, One would expect Bosch to lower its OEM cost to Bike brands to compete.

Only raising some questions and opinions open for debate.

 

The Avinox already has a gradient sensor with an optional loop out feature that kills power when the bike is somewhere around 45°. It also factors gradient into its torque delivery already. I imagine a software update could introduce what you’re describing. 

1
5 hours ago
Any0ng wrote:
Im not sugesting anything like that. But maybe (probably) I dont't understand the "trail access problematics" of northern america as well as you do. In fact no...

Im not sugesting anything like that. But maybe (probably) I dont't understand the "trail access problematics" of northern america as well as you do. 

In fact no insurance and need of licence is already the "legal" situation for "tuned/unlocked" ebikes here in germany. You are only viewed equal to "normal bikes" if you comply to the 250w nomimal power + max 25km/h. If you have a bike that does not comply, you have some sort of "e-pedelec" (ebikes equal to "small" 45 km/h scooters) without the nessesary features (light, license plate, horn (yea, really!)). So yea no insurance an you need a licence for that.

In europe, germany in particular, you have either sanctioned trails (rare) where as long as your ebike meets the regulations you are viewed equal as any non ebike.

But much more often you are illegal or at least halfly-illegal anyways, so any kind of regulation does not do/help anything.

IMHO max 25 km/h is all the regulation thats needed. Avinox meets these criteria as much as any other motor of the last 2-4 years. That they are the first ones to find the loophole of "nominal power" is simply not true.

I missed that you were European.  I don't have a clue on access issues on your side of the pond and didn't mean to be commenting on those.  I also should have prefaced my response by saying it wasn't meant to be personal or inflammatory.  I tend to see red on this issue.  For my mental health, I should probably unfollow this thread.  But I also want to stay to learn more about other people's opinions for trail-advocacy reasons.  

I do think a huge factor in how people view this issue is their normal riding.  If you're mainly climbing up fire roads, or even designated climbing trails, and then descending steep trails where you hardly use the motor, you're more likely to be ambivalent about the Avinox e-motos.

The biggest problem is on rolling, multi-directional trails.  Those trails were planned and built and are managed based on assumptions about user speed.  When e-motos with really high power and 800% assist blow those assumptions out of the water, it's a problem.  Full-powered ebikes were bad enough.  To make a legal-nerd joke almost no one will get, "Are we all downhillers now?"

As e-motos become more and more prevalent, I think you're going to see at least a couple of things on "non-downhill trails."  First, your ability to make up your own route is going to decrease as more trails are designated as directional, likely alternating by the day.  This will happen first as it just requires signage.  On anything other than a pure stacked-loop system, it's going to confusing and annoying.  Compliance will be mixed.  

Second, trail designers/builders will lean heavily into choke points, chicanes, and other similar tricks to force lower trail speeds.  But on rolling trails on flatter terrain, you have to work really hard to prevent people from responding to these tricks by braiding the trail.  If you're not building with an excavator with a thumb and there are not relatively large rocks nearby, avoiding braiding at these features is very difficult.  There will be constant battles between trail organizations and users on this front.  Large piles of downed limbs will pop up and disappear like mushrooms.

 

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