Three-Quarter Lids: Gimmick or Cool?

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Open Face Helmets
Stiksandstones 10/3/2019 2:45pm
10/3/2019 2:45pm
Tim Clayton wrote:
I think the open face versus full face debate is more complex than full face is (all other things being equal like the helmets being compared...
I think the open face versus full face debate is more complex than full face is (all other things being equal like the helmets being compared are both MIPS or not etc) always safer. Two issues here I’ve been thinking through lately.
1 - There’s an argument (made by a medical friend of mine in ICU) that you can reconstruct a face but not a brain. He sees some (not all of course) head trauma victims wearing a full face with untouched faces but brain injuries, and some wearing a half lid with smashed up faces but untouched brain. In simple terms the face is a natural and effective crumple zone, take that away by wearing a full face and you transmit more force to the brain. (I know it’s more complex than this, but brighter people than me think the argument has merit and, as a Dad of a 12 year old shredder, it makes me think about what helmet he rides and when). So maybe a 3/4 lid keeps the ‘crumple zone’ and gives extra protection to the side and back of the skull. Or maybe we need to be talking about how well chin bars ‘crumple’ on our better DH helmets.
2 - a mate of mine recently injured his neck badly going OTB and face planting hard. He was wearing a half lid. Two independent neuro surgeons first asked, on seeing his X-ray, what helmet he was wearing - full or half. Both said if he was wearing a full face he would be dead as the chinbar would have further extended his neck. The take home message from them both was that if you want to wear a full face then also wear a neck brace (I know, that’s another debate).
So for now I buy my son the best half lid I can (and this is where the 3/4 lid might come in if they start making more options), and will get him a neck brace to wear when he runs a full face.
That is why many helmet brands find a delicate balance on chin bar strength/rigidity, no one wants it to be as strong as a steel i-beam haha, but you don't want it to snap right off. Many of us do a lot of development and testing with different materials and how it integrates into the helmet to find what we think is a perfect balance-There is a chinbar test, but, some go about it in different ways.

Anyway, my wife decided to race US Open 2 weeks ago up at Snow Summit, She hasn't raced DH since she got 8th place at world champs in MSA 2010 (at 38yrs old with our kid in tow!), she just got her new pivot built for Whistler and was loving it so decided to race.

First run of practice on that sketchy track, she went face first (with her D3 MIPS) into a rock pile, broke her goggles, smashed her eye/cheek, but had NO concussions symptoms, whatsoever. I thank the helmet of course haha, but, maybe this facial impact tale you spin here makes sense? to some extent.
2
richierich66 10/16/2019 3:26am
10/16/2019 3:26am
As a face plant survivor with the aid of 3 plastic surgeries to make my mouth appear "normal-ish" after ripping my bottom lip from my jaw, I have never rode with anything but full face helmet since! Just takes once! This was back in the late '80s and I immediatelyI switched to a Bell Moto3 - then a prototype Troy Lee Shoei and so on...now use a Giro full face that weighs less than half faces of not all that long ago with better fit and ventilation. Upgrades to protective gear are 1st on my list - WAY before bike upgrades, even.
Would it feel delightful to have the wind blowing through what's left of my hair while flying down a mountain? Sure. But with age and experience come wisdom. It's my choice to minimize my risk of another disfiguring incident or TBI or worse. IMHO:1/2 lid = raw dog; 3/4 = condom with no tip; With my full face I feel like I'm 10 feet tall and made of steel!
richierich66 10/16/2019 3:36am
10/16/2019 3:36am
richierich66 wrote:
As a face plant survivor with the aid of 3 plastic surgeries to make my mouth appear "normal-ish" after ripping my bottom lip from my jaw...
As a face plant survivor with the aid of 3 plastic surgeries to make my mouth appear "normal-ish" after ripping my bottom lip from my jaw, I have never rode with anything but full face helmet since! Just takes once! This was back in the late '80s and I immediatelyI switched to a Bell Moto3 - then a prototype Troy Lee Shoei and so on...now use a Giro full face that weighs less than half faces of not all that long ago with better fit and ventilation. Upgrades to protective gear are 1st on my list - WAY before bike upgrades, even.
Would it feel delightful to have the wind blowing through what's left of my hair while flying down a mountain? Sure. But with age and experience come wisdom. It's my choice to minimize my risk of another disfiguring incident or TBI or worse. IMHO:1/2 lid = raw dog; 3/4 = condom with no tip; With my full face I feel like I'm 10 feet tall and made of steel!
And of course with my newst neck brace ... a gift from the little lady! :-)
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ninjichor 10/16/2019 6:37am
10/16/2019 6:37am Edited Date/Time 10/16/2019 6:41am
You trust lightweight FF helmets to offer similar protection? Crash reports on the chinbar made me lose confidence in the TLD Stage and Fox Proframe specifically. The Proframe broke at the seam on the side and got pushed in to injure the rider's face (crashed on a pump track). The Stages were just good for a single chin hit and fully fractured. Haven't seen other helmet reports, but seen one case of the Bell Super (3?) surviving a splat-style faceplant in video format. That helmet wasn't reused though.

Maybe I'm expecting too much, for a chin guard to take be stronger? The Super looks kind of flexy in test videos, like the force would transfer through like a good punch anyways.
Curtis Gillen 10/18/2019 8:51am
10/18/2019 8:51am
I wouldn't mind manufactures offering more lower protection on half shells, but I don't necessarily want my ears covered to do it. Do your ears have to be protected to qualify as 3/4 shell?
Gator
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Gator 11/6/2019 7:48am
11/6/2019 7:48am
Everyone has a different idea of protection offered and protection needed and where it crosses the line with regards to comfort/price/weight/air flow/ and believe it — looks.

IMO the more protection the better.

I own several Lids as most do however the more experienced I become the more I find myself in places or at speeds that would require more protection should the inevitable crash happen.

My go to lid is my Bell Super DH. The face guard is removable however I seldom do it.
richierich66 11/6/2019 8:03am
11/6/2019 8:03am
Not really a 3/4 helmet, per se, but I did get a TLD A2 with MIPS last week. It kind of splits the difference between a regular helmet and a 3/4 IMO. I intend to use it for chill, rolly rides. I've used it on one ride so far and I have to say I felt a little naked / nervous without my full face .
I should note that I also got a TLD 3 full face this week as an early bday present from the lil' lady 🙂
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ninjichor 11/6/2019 8:08am
11/6/2019 8:08am
Gator, does your Bell SuperDH "creak"? As in, sounds like the liner is rubbing against the foam noises?
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Gator 11/6/2019 8:28am
11/6/2019 8:28am
ninjichor wrote:
Gator, does your Bell SuperDH "creak"? As in, sounds like the liner is rubbing against the foam noises?
It does not however my brother bought the same helmet and he says his does. We tested with and without the chin bar and adjusted to his comfort level and couldn’t eliminate the squeak. I blame it on his wonky shaped head however once mine is on and the adjustment is made it isn’t noisy. That would drive me nuts.
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TPL Racing 11/6/2019 11:53am
11/6/2019 11:53am Edited Date/Time 11/6/2019 12:00pm
I see the 3/4 lids as natural progression and a step towards the mass adoption of lightweight breathable full face helmets . Speeds are going up, riders are challenging rougher terrain so it makes perfect sense to protect your face. Am I ready to be an early adopter? Nope. When I see a full face helmet on a trail ride I either think the person is a kook or the person has previously had a traumatic head injury. In my mind it’s up to the media and helmet manufacturers to use their athletes/voice to promote full face trail helmets. MX racers wore open face helmets up until the pros switched to full face. Promote full face trail helmets as cool and like the sheep we are we’ll follow.


Gator
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Gator 11/6/2019 12:02pm
11/6/2019 12:02pm
TPL Racing wrote:
I see the 3/4 lids as natural progression and a step towards the mass adoption of lightweight breathable full face helmets . Speeds are going up...
I see the 3/4 lids as natural progression and a step towards the mass adoption of lightweight breathable full face helmets . Speeds are going up, riders are challenging rougher terrain so it makes perfect sense to protect your face. Am I ready to be an early adopter? Nope. When I see a full face helmet on a trail ride I either think the person is a kook or the person has previously had a traumatic head injury. In my mind it’s up to the media and helmet manufacturers to use their athletes/voice to promote full face trail helmets. MX racers wore open face helmets up until the pros switched to full face. Promote full face trail helmets as cool and like the sheep we are we’ll follow.


Heheheh. A kook yeah. Until you land on your chin or get out of shape and take a branch to the nose or mouth.

It depends on the riders idea of safety.

I’m a kook.

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bturman
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bturman 11/7/2019 11:37am
11/7/2019 11:37am
TPL Racing wrote:
I see the 3/4 lids as natural progression and a step towards the mass adoption of lightweight breathable full face helmets . Speeds are going up...
I see the 3/4 lids as natural progression and a step towards the mass adoption of lightweight breathable full face helmets . Speeds are going up, riders are challenging rougher terrain so it makes perfect sense to protect your face. Am I ready to be an early adopter? Nope. When I see a full face helmet on a trail ride I either think the person is a kook or the person has previously had a traumatic head injury. In my mind it’s up to the media and helmet manufacturers to use their athletes/voice to promote full face trail helmets. MX racers wore open face helmets up until the pros switched to full face. Promote full face trail helmets as cool and like the sheep we are we’ll follow.


After a recent crash resulting in facial injuries and scarring, I for one am ready to rock a full-face helmet on the vast majority of my rides. Consider the media onboard. Wink
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Stiksandstones 11/10/2019 10:16am
11/10/2019 10:16am
ninjichor wrote:
You trust lightweight FF helmets to offer similar protection? Crash reports on the chinbar made me lose confidence in the TLD Stage and Fox Proframe specifically...
You trust lightweight FF helmets to offer similar protection? Crash reports on the chinbar made me lose confidence in the TLD Stage and Fox Proframe specifically. The Proframe broke at the seam on the side and got pushed in to injure the rider's face (crashed on a pump track). The Stages were just good for a single chin hit and fully fractured. Haven't seen other helmet reports, but seen one case of the Bell Super (3?) surviving a splat-style faceplant in video format. That helmet wasn't reused though.

Maybe I'm expecting too much, for a chin guard to take be stronger? The Super looks kind of flexy in test videos, like the force would transfer through like a good punch anyways.
Where are these documented cases of either? To infer a 'pump track' wouldn't have significant impact is a bit foolish, i've been in lab testing numerous helmets, and those 2 you mentioned sustain pretty significant forces, and even more than the detachable styles.

There is also something to be said, for having a chinbar TOO rigid/strong.
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Verbl Kint 11/11/2019 10:38pm
11/11/2019 10:38pm
Stiksandstones wrote:
Where are these documented cases of either? To infer a 'pump track' wouldn't have significant impact is a bit foolish, i've been in lab testing numerous...
Where are these documented cases of either? To infer a 'pump track' wouldn't have significant impact is a bit foolish, i've been in lab testing numerous helmets, and those 2 you mentioned sustain pretty significant forces, and even more than the detachable styles.

There is also something to be said, for having a chinbar TOO rigid/strong.
Interesting. Do FF helmets need to have crumple zones, or should the impact force be dissipated/distributed throughout the whole structure of the helmet?

ninjichor
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ninjichor 11/12/2019 1:54am
11/12/2019 1:54am


The TLD Stage was marketed on review sites and stores claiming "EPP-lined chinbar for multiple impacts". Seems to be too brittle to do that. My chinbar fractured when I fell into weeds on the side of the trail (moderately downsloped and the weeds are the slick-as-ice kind). I got up with no injury other than light abrasion in the mustache area, and everyone was like woah your helmet busted, and logically assumed that my crash was gnarly in order for that to happen (first time they've seen a busted chinbar), and told me to watch my head for signs of concussion. I posted it elsewhere and people were like, you must've hit your head hard, it's common sense that helmets are only designed for a single hit. It did its job; buy a new one.

================

Here's one for Proframe, showing another weak spot:



9=

Nothing but thin plastic there. Imagine a plastic edge digging into your face with the force of a heavy punch... the rider suffered injuries from that. People had the audacity to say it could've been worse, going without a chinbar, which was true, but ignored the topic of how the design is questionable.

================

Chinbar example that's not too rigid, not too brittle (1 minute in):

https://youtu.be/XWH13HUz4mg

================

I went in with faith in the brand and reviews, ignorant to the fact that these early lightweight FF designs are heavily compromised. Just another expensive weight weenie purchase I regret making. Now I'm prioritizing the basics: a helmet that mitigates the sudden/sharp deceleration of an impact, first and foremost.

P.S. to the TLD and Fox fans who want to defend the brands by roasting me, stiksandstone is a longtime TLD employee and asked. Also, when I posted this somewhere else, people low-key chimed in that they had the same helmet and that it failed in exactly the same way, not wanting to face similar wrath from the pitch-fork wielding fandom.
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TPL Racing 11/12/2019 6:25am
11/12/2019 6:25am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2019 6:28am
I’ve never understood why motorcrossers and mountain bike folks think that a full face helmet should be able to sustain multiple hits over a season or seasons and still perform. Once a helmet has made any kind of contact with the ground it’s time to replace it. In motorcycle Roadracing we are required to bring our helmet and leathers to tech inspection after each crash. Our helmets are inspected and if there’s been any external damage or contact the helmet must be replaced and we enter a concussion protocol. You’re probably saying to yourself that makes sense, motorcycle racers are often going 320kph. In reality I’ve had most of my 10+ concussions on mountain bikes even though I’ve crashed racing motorcycles literally a 50 plus times.

The bottom line is once a helmet has been crashed you can’t really tell how much the EPS foam in the contact area has been compromised. If you hit your head in the exact same spot the helmet will not perform as well as it did on the first hit. Yes helmets are expensive to replace but the complications from multiple concussions can be absolutely debilitating as you age. Stop wasting your money on shit that won’t make you go faster and spend it on your head.





ninjichor
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ninjichor 11/14/2019 10:25am
11/14/2019 10:25am
TPL Racing, well, at least your post serves as motivation to not get concussed. Anyone able to translate its meaning? Is it in response to my post, pointing out the weakness/compromise in the stage and proframe?

Reminds me that I've had people argue that the busted chinbar on my TLD Stage makes it less effective than their non-FF helmet. They claim that I can't tell if that impact affected the rest of the helmet.

If anyone's interested, I bought a 6D ATB, as I couldn't find a more protective helmet optimized for bikes. Just have to get over its bulkiness and looks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkGZXAplj5U

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