Tire weight deviation

hambocairns
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Trinity Beach, QLD AU
11/15/2023 4:55pm

Haha perhaps, but the longest climb I do in one go is around 320m. I just wondered if they meant something like 1,000m of climbing in one go.

1
Explodo
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Arvada, CO US
11/15/2023 5:56pm
Yes and no - I find that lighter tyres need to be pumped up more to factor in the lighter casing, which means you deflect off...

Yes and no - I find that lighter tyres need to be pumped up more to factor in the lighter casing, which means you deflect off features far more than a heavier, lower pressure casing, which can conform to said features and make it easier to maintain momentum (the key to technical climbing imo).

I went from WTB Vigilante/Trail Boss Tough tyres to XC (for a charity ride) and honestly I noticed the lack of conformity and grip more than the weight savings. But they sure do roll well on fire roads!

Explodo wrote:
I can't speak to XC-type tires since those don't work for me, but the difference between a heavy DHR2 and a light DHR2 is noticeable when...

I can't speak to XC-type tires since those don't work for me, but the difference between a heavy DHR2 and a light DHR2 is noticeable when you're reaching the exhaustion point of your "I've been climbing non-stop as long as I can" run.

Out of curiosity, how much climbing are you talking about?

Just like a 7 liter engine doesn't much care if it's a small or big hill, but a 2 liter engine does, I think we need to consider that I'm old.  I didn't specify a climbing amount, because it doesn't much matter...it's relative.  Rough terrain continually slows the wheel down and you have to re-accelerate it while climbing.  A wheel with more mass around the outside edge is harder to accelerate.  Even if the whole wheel combination weighs the same, but one wheel has 70% of the mass at the hub and one has 70% of the mass out at the tire, the latter will be harder to get up a hill.  That's just basic physics.

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hambocairns
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Trinity Beach, QLD AU
11/15/2023 6:17pm
Explodo wrote:
I can't speak to XC-type tires since those don't work for me, but the difference between a heavy DHR2 and a light DHR2 is noticeable when...

I can't speak to XC-type tires since those don't work for me, but the difference between a heavy DHR2 and a light DHR2 is noticeable when you're reaching the exhaustion point of your "I've been climbing non-stop as long as I can" run.

Out of curiosity, how much climbing are you talking about?

Explodo wrote:
Just like a 7 liter engine doesn't much care if it's a small or big hill, but a 2 liter engine does, I think we need...

Just like a 7 liter engine doesn't much care if it's a small or big hill, but a 2 liter engine does, I think we need to consider that I'm old.  I didn't specify a climbing amount, because it doesn't much matter...it's relative.  Rough terrain continually slows the wheel down and you have to re-accelerate it while climbing.  A wheel with more mass around the outside edge is harder to accelerate.  Even if the whole wheel combination weighs the same, but one wheel has 70% of the mass at the hub and one has 70% of the mass out at the tire, the latter will be harder to get up a hill.  That's just basic physics.

Assuming you mean a non-aspirated 2.0l engine, even that can handle a short climb before succumbing to a lack of power - you said "noticeable when you're reaching the exhaustion point of your "I've been climbing non-stop as long as I can" run. I just wondered how long/far said climb is in your opinion.

Explodo
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Arvada, CO US
11/15/2023 7:35pm

Out of curiosity, how much climbing are you talking about?

Explodo wrote:
Just like a 7 liter engine doesn't much care if it's a small or big hill, but a 2 liter engine does, I think we need...

Just like a 7 liter engine doesn't much care if it's a small or big hill, but a 2 liter engine does, I think we need to consider that I'm old.  I didn't specify a climbing amount, because it doesn't much matter...it's relative.  Rough terrain continually slows the wheel down and you have to re-accelerate it while climbing.  A wheel with more mass around the outside edge is harder to accelerate.  Even if the whole wheel combination weighs the same, but one wheel has 70% of the mass at the hub and one has 70% of the mass out at the tire, the latter will be harder to get up a hill.  That's just basic physics.

Assuming you mean a non-aspirated 2.0l engine, even that can handle a short climb before succumbing to a lack of power - you said "noticeable when...

Assuming you mean a non-aspirated 2.0l engine, even that can handle a short climb before succumbing to a lack of power - you said "noticeable when you're reaching the exhaustion point of your "I've been climbing non-stop as long as I can" run. I just wondered how long/far said climb is in your opinion.

I don't honestly know how much elevation there is overall, but my ride-from-home ride is ~20 miles and I take one ~1min break during the whole ride.  The rest of the time I push as hard as I can.  It's ~300m max-to-min elevation, but there are a lot of ups and downs in there.  I spend most of the ride(by time) climbing...as is normal.

naptime
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Bozeman, MT US
11/17/2023 6:14am
Explodo wrote:
I don't honestly know how much elevation there is overall, but my ride-from-home ride is ~20 miles and I take one ~1min break during the whole...

I don't honestly know how much elevation there is overall, but my ride-from-home ride is ~20 miles and I take one ~1min break during the whole ride.  The rest of the time I push as hard as I can.  It's ~300m max-to-min elevation, but there are a lot of ups and downs in there.  I spend most of the ride(by time) climbing...as is normal.

User name checks out

BlueSpruce
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Pleasant View, TN US
11/17/2023 8:50am

This is kinda my area of expertise. With automotive tires +/-4% is achievable. The issue you run into with MTB tires is the web (topped cord) thickness is so low. You'll inevitably have material from the calender start up or some other event where the gauge deviates .05 mm or more. Which doesn't seem like a lot until you start producing topping material specced close to .50 mm or so. Then you're looking at large percentage changes. Similar concept with extruded material. It's challenging to precisely manufacturer rubber products and that gets harder the more you scale down. My guess is the lighter XC tires show larger % variations than the DH tires.

4
11/18/2023 7:43am Edited Date/Time 11/18/2023 11:06pm

@BlueSpruce Thanks for the insight, can you clarify what is “material from the calendar start up”? 
 

Vittoria did a promo video a year or so ago where they show some of the manufacturing processes, looked like the die-cut rubber casing and tread strips had a lot of variation. 

BlueSpruce
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Pleasant View, TN US
11/18/2023 9:01am

The calendering process is where the textile plys (carcass) are made. They take a roll of textile fabric and coat it with rubber, typically in a 4 roll mill. Calender performance is very dependent on stable operating conditions. Line speed changes, start/stop, etc lead to gauge fluctuations. It's a non recoupable material so manufacturers try not scrap unless they have to. I don't know what kind of tolerances bicycle tire manufacturers use. 

 

Extruded tread and sidewall can be recouped if they're out of tolerance. The issue there isn't width so much as balancing width, gauge and weight all of which are affected by the compound variances. So even if everything had it's width in spec that doesn't mean the gauge and weight are.

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