New high-end MTB brand: Instinctiv

1/1/2020 9:31am Edited Date/Time 1/1/2020 9:32am
Any info on geometry? As a Dutchie I am interested in this. Although the headube area is not that good looking , looks like a mondraker
undomestic
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1/1/2020 12:54pm
Any info on geometry? As a Dutchie I am interested in this. Although the headube area is not that good looking , looks like a mondraker
We will publish more information about geometry and kinematics later for the different models and sizes.
undomestic
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1/1/2020 12:55pm
Also will the frame only option be available without shock as I am not a fox fan
Sure, that would be no problem. Although the Fox DPX2 will be a specially tuned shock for our bikes.
Primoz
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1/1/2020 11:40pm
Primoz wrote:
That just means people searching for the brand will find it on Google with no problems. Which is a very good thing.
No it doesn't mean just that. It means a whole lot of other things as well.

Sincerely

Someone who actually knows about SEO.
My employer is slowly transitioning from a two word name towards IM (beginning letters of the two words). There isn't any SEO that will make a small automotive supplier from Slovenia achieve a decent amount of search hits.
mamath7
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1/2/2020 1:37pm
Absolutely love everything about this except your company name "Undomestic". As someone who rides a Pinion and wants to see gearboxes become the norm within the...
Absolutely love everything about this except your company name "Undomestic".

As someone who rides a Pinion and wants to see gearboxes become the norm within the Industry, I mean this in the most constructive way possible. Undomestic is not a good name for a bike brand.

I think your intention for choosing this name is lost in translation.
undomestic wrote:
I'm interested to hear more. We believe that it is all about contrasts. The contrast of advanced technology and riding in nature. The contrast of our...
I'm interested to hear more. We believe that it is all about contrasts. The contrast of advanced technology and riding in nature. The contrast of our design language that is inspired by big cats, and high-tech like carbon or a gearbox. The name fits in this line of contrasts, it hints to wild, to undomestic big cats.
Whereas undomestic is a real word; it is used so infrequently in common English speech that it just sounds weird. It doesn't dance of the tongue...
Whereas undomestic is a real word; it is used so infrequently in common English speech that it just sounds weird.

It doesn't dance of the tongue and sounds incongruous, contrived and clunky.

If someone told me "my companies brand name is "Undomestic", what do you think I'm selling?", it certainly wouldn't be mountain bikes that would spring to mind.

Just my two cents about the brand name.

The bike looks and sounds amazing!
Sounds like French brand trying too much to sounds cool. Nice frame tho.
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undomestic
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1/3/2020 4:17am
mamath7 wrote:
Sounds like French brand trying too much to sounds cool. Nice frame tho.
Thank you all for your feedback. We will keep you updated and we are thinking about finding a new brand name. We keep you posted.
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madstace
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1/3/2020 5:34pm
undomestic wrote:
Hi all, maybe nice to share with you the coming of a new high-end mountain bike brand: Instinctiv. With my team of riders (who are also...

Hi all, maybe nice to share with you the coming of a new high-end mountain bike brand: Instinctiv.

With my team of riders (who are also engineers and designers) we have been working for the past two years to develop a line of enduro / all-mountain machines. Innovation takes place in our HQ in the Netherlands, testing is done at our test center in Croatia and in the mountains of Slovenia.

So what is the new Kodiak like? We can share that the bikes will obviously have great refined design, modern geometry and a patented suspension platform. The platform is based on Horst, with improved kinematics for a gearbox. The machines will come with a Pinion C-line drive train, combined with grip-shifting, trigger shifting and later with our patented electronic shifting. This offers great traction at all times, fast shifting, 115% anti squat in all gears at sag and centered weight distribution.

The bikes are made with 8% recycled automotive carbon. And equipped with the best suspension components from Fox, hubs and wheels from Industry Nine.

check the website for news

You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just the Cinq solution, which I'm not a big fan of. Bike looks really interesting otherwise, can't wait to get more info.
Big Bird
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1/3/2020 8:12pm
madstace wrote:
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just...
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just the Cinq solution, which I'm not a big fan of. Bike looks really interesting otherwise, can't wait to get more info.
If they're smart guys, and I suspect they are, then they've worked into their frame design a cavity that can house either their proprietary electronic system or a mechanical system that uses a conventional trigger shifter. Not that I'm a smart guy like them or anything.
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Big Bird
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1/3/2020 9:00pm
Just a theory of course. And good idea iff so.
Primoz
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1/4/2020 6:14am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2020 6:20am
I've thought about the trigger option, with sram and shimano moving to 12spd drivetrains and the popularity of 12spd pinion gearboxes it seems like a match made in heaven. But the pinion gearbox uses two cables to pull the shifting mechanism in both ways. With an adapter box and a trigger shifter you'd need a return spring for one direction in the adapter.

Given the relatively high shifting forces (pinion supposedly shifts the gearboxes using strong motors on the end of line production check while running the gearbox at basically full power - supposedly the harder you pedal, the harder it is to shift, but it's not impossible given enough shifting force with no damage done to the gearbox) you'd either need a very strong return spring or back off the power on the pedals to almost zero. In the first case you'd have to move the shifting mechanism AND the spring in one direction. That could prove to be quite a high effort in practise.

I sadly haven't tried a pinion gearbox yet so can't comment on the shifting effort or the forces needed to shift gears, but it looks like an electronic system might be the easiest solution. It could even be made dumb, two buttons, a controller and a stepper motor on a worm drive power the equivalent of the grip shift to shift the gears. If the motor isn't strong enough, the stepper will have a few step losses, otherwise you just do the number of steps on the stepper needed to make a shift and that's it. Level two would be a feedback system displaying the gear the gearbox is in. But current Sram/Shimano systems are essentialy blind as well.
undomestic
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1/4/2020 9:39am
undomestic wrote:
Hi all, maybe nice to share with you the coming of a new high-end mountain bike brand: Instinctiv. With my team of riders (who are also...

Hi all, maybe nice to share with you the coming of a new high-end mountain bike brand: Instinctiv.

With my team of riders (who are also engineers and designers) we have been working for the past two years to develop a line of enduro / all-mountain machines. Innovation takes place in our HQ in the Netherlands, testing is done at our test center in Croatia and in the mountains of Slovenia.

So what is the new Kodiak like? We can share that the bikes will obviously have great refined design, modern geometry and a patented suspension platform. The platform is based on Horst, with improved kinematics for a gearbox. The machines will come with a Pinion C-line drive train, combined with grip-shifting, trigger shifting and later with our patented electronic shifting. This offers great traction at all times, fast shifting, 115% anti squat in all gears at sag and centered weight distribution.

The bikes are made with 8% recycled automotive carbon. And equipped with the best suspension components from Fox, hubs and wheels from Industry Nine.

check the website for news

madstace wrote:
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just...
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just the Cinq solution, which I'm not a big fan of. Bike looks really interesting otherwise, can't wait to get more info.
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below, mechanical shifting is complicated, because of the high forces. A shifting experience that is very close to SRAM is something we did not achieve yet. We are testing the Cinq solution as well, and have some idea's for improvements. What exactly you do not like from the Cinq solution? I'm curious if your experience is the same as ours. And what do you prefer better, the DS2 grip shifter from Pinon or the Shift:R from Cinq?
undomestic
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1/4/2020 9:43am
madstace wrote:
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just...
You have to tell us more about the trigger shifting! Is this Pinion finally getting the picture or something you're doing separately? Hoping it's not just the Cinq solution, which I'm not a big fan of. Bike looks really interesting otherwise, can't wait to get more info.
Big Bird wrote:
If they're smart guys, and I suspect they are, then they've worked into their frame design a cavity that can house either their proprietary electronic system...
If they're smart guys, and I suspect they are, then they've worked into their frame design a cavity that can house either their proprietary electronic system or a mechanical system that uses a conventional trigger shifter. Not that I'm a smart guy like them or anything.
Cavity is there indeed, mainly for our electronic system.
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Primoz
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1/4/2020 2:19pm
undomestic wrote:
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below...
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below, mechanical shifting is complicated, because of the high forces. A shifting experience that is very close to SRAM is something we did not achieve yet. We are testing the Cinq solution as well, and have some idea's for improvements. What exactly you do not like from the Cinq solution? I'm curious if your experience is the same as ours. And what do you prefer better, the DS2 grip shifter from Pinon or the Shift:R from Cinq?
Having a quick look at what Cinq is, i'd say the issue is with the two lever aspect of it. 1x drivetrains have put the dropper lever under the bar on the left side, we have forgotten what a shifter lever there looks like.

Maybe a similar solution could be achieved with two levers on the right side?
madstace
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1/4/2020 6:45pm
undomestic wrote:
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below...
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below, mechanical shifting is complicated, because of the high forces. A shifting experience that is very close to SRAM is something we did not achieve yet. We are testing the Cinq solution as well, and have some idea's for improvements. What exactly you do not like from the Cinq solution? I'm curious if your experience is the same as ours. And what do you prefer better, the DS2 grip shifter from Pinon or the Shift:R from Cinq?
Full disclosure - I haven't had any time on the Pinion yet, so all my concerns are potentially unfounded. Having said that, I've ridden long enough to know what I like and works for me.

As Primoz said, main issue with the Cinq system is the fact it competes for the space for a dropper lever. It's one of the tangible benefits 1x gave us, and IMO made droppers properly ubiquitous, so seems like a backward step. Also seems a bit overpriced for what it is.

The new DS2 shifter looks like a very nice upgrade over the original shifter, but I'm still not a fan of having my bar grip compromised to perform a shift, also seems like it undoes some of the advantage of being able to shift without pedalling (such as coming into a steep technical section transitioning to a climb).

I also noticed the cable port in front of the gearbox looked a little more cavenous Tongue I'm not a fan of having to charge things on my MTB, but seems like it might be the only way around the gripshift.
1/5/2020 8:55am
I ride Pinion and it's excellent. When I first changed to Pinion I was easily able to make the transition to gripshift.

Realistically it took me about a month to properly nail the technique for gripshifting a gearbox, but now I 100% prefer it to trigger shifting a derailleur.

When I ride derailleur now, they feel so weird and awkward that I wonder how I ever used them.

Pinion gripshift + Pinion gearbox = awesome.

The cinq system looks awful and is a step in the wrong direction.

I'd be very interested to see e-shifting properly introduced to the Pinon in the form of a Di2 style shifter though.
undomestic
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1/7/2020 6:29am
undomestic wrote:
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below...
Electronic trigger shifting is something we develop ourselves, and we involve Pinion, so they know what we are doing. As Primoz explained in the comments below, mechanical shifting is complicated, because of the high forces. A shifting experience that is very close to SRAM is something we did not achieve yet. We are testing the Cinq solution as well, and have some idea's for improvements. What exactly you do not like from the Cinq solution? I'm curious if your experience is the same as ours. And what do you prefer better, the DS2 grip shifter from Pinon or the Shift:R from Cinq?
madstace wrote:
Full disclosure - I haven't had any time on the Pinion yet, so all my concerns are potentially unfounded. Having said that, I've ridden long enough...
Full disclosure - I haven't had any time on the Pinion yet, so all my concerns are potentially unfounded. Having said that, I've ridden long enough to know what I like and works for me.

As Primoz said, main issue with the Cinq system is the fact it competes for the space for a dropper lever. It's one of the tangible benefits 1x gave us, and IMO made droppers properly ubiquitous, so seems like a backward step. Also seems a bit overpriced for what it is.

The new DS2 shifter looks like a very nice upgrade over the original shifter, but I'm still not a fan of having my bar grip compromised to perform a shift, also seems like it undoes some of the advantage of being able to shift without pedalling (such as coming into a steep technical section transitioning to a climb).

I also noticed the cable port in front of the gearbox looked a little more cavenous Tongue I'm not a fan of having to charge things on my MTB, but seems like it might be the only way around the gripshift.
We will try to come with three good options: DS2 grip shifter, which we believe is actually very good and direct. But as excavator is saying above, you need some time to adjust to this way of shifting. In our testing in the field it appeared actually a very fast and direct way of shifting the gearbox. Second option will be a mechanical trigger system for those that like triggers and do not want to charge anything. And third will be electronic shifting, which will come a bit later, as we need enough time for extreme field testing.
1
1/9/2020 1:08pm
Primoz wrote:
I've thought about the trigger option, with sram and shimano moving to 12spd drivetrains and the popularity of 12spd pinion gearboxes it seems like a match...
I've thought about the trigger option, with sram and shimano moving to 12spd drivetrains and the popularity of 12spd pinion gearboxes it seems like a match made in heaven. But the pinion gearbox uses two cables to pull the shifting mechanism in both ways. With an adapter box and a trigger shifter you'd need a return spring for one direction in the adapter.

Given the relatively high shifting forces (pinion supposedly shifts the gearboxes using strong motors on the end of line production check while running the gearbox at basically full power - supposedly the harder you pedal, the harder it is to shift, but it's not impossible given enough shifting force with no damage done to the gearbox) you'd either need a very strong return spring or back off the power on the pedals to almost zero. In the first case you'd have to move the shifting mechanism AND the spring in one direction. That could prove to be quite a high effort in practise.

I sadly haven't tried a pinion gearbox yet so can't comment on the shifting effort or the forces needed to shift gears, but it looks like an electronic system might be the easiest solution. It could even be made dumb, two buttons, a controller and a stepper motor on a worm drive power the equivalent of the grip shift to shift the gears. If the motor isn't strong enough, the stepper will have a few step losses, otherwise you just do the number of steps on the stepper needed to make a shift and that's it. Level two would be a feedback system displaying the gear the gearbox is in. But current Sram/Shimano systems are essentialy blind as well.
As you say "the pinion gearbox uses two cables to pull the shifting mechanism in both ways."
Would it really be so hard to develop a shifter with two pull levers, one above the other? Same as we're using now, just a pair of the lower ones...
Maybe it's harder than I imagine (not even pretending to be an armchair engineer) but I want it.
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Primoz
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1/10/2020 6:48am
That would be one way, but you'd probably need quite a bit of force then as well or a relatively long finger throw to achieve the shift (depending on the forces). In either case it's the ergonomics that do you in. You can have one lever like that (as you do now), but you have to put another one somewhere as well. Below it? Will you reach it? Etc. The issue is how to offset the second lever in such a way for the thumb to be still accessible taking into account that you have a handlebar somewhere around there as well. And to make a sensible shifting mechanism, not have a huge potato of a tumor hanging off your handlebar, have space around the grip, etc.

But yeah, that would be an option.

You also have to remember that the release triggers in current shifters don't require much force to operate so they can be hidden behind the big lever.
undomestic
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3/27/2020 4:09am
It's been a while, so we thought we’d give you a small update of what we’re currently working on:
- first size-L frames come in end of April
- preparing extensive frame testing
- suspension tuning with Fox
- finalizing the color and graphics schemes
- CAD development on M and XL frames
- finalizing development on new shifting options
- building the website and webshop
- organizing logistics and production

And a bit of a shocker. Not even launched yet and already a new name? Yes, we were re-thinking our brand name and expect to launch with a name that fits the bike and our brand even better. We’ll keep you posted.
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Primoz
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3/27/2020 4:45am
Has the current situation affected you in any way?
undomestic
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3/27/2020 5:03am
Primoz wrote:
Has the current situation affected you in any way?
No, not yet. We will see if it will have any effect, for now things are still going as planned.
Sesame Seed
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3/27/2020 7:46am
Attention Mods -

Next WorldWide Health Pandemic and/or Financial Crisis, consider putting the pinch on Forum content containing soliciting and advertising.

3
3/27/2020 8:56am
A savvy internet sleuth might point out that you have a new Fox fork model in your bike rendering, giving us the clearest look yet at what that looks like. Luckily I'm not that savvy and haven't taken note.
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madstace
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3/27/2020 8:01pm
Cheers for the update undomestic! With all the madness in the world at the moment, it's nice to know there's still cool things to look forward to. Interested in seeing what the name might change to as well!
3/28/2020 2:46am
Nice one guys! Really can't wait to see this bike in action.
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Big Bird
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3/28/2020 4:43pm
Attention Mods -

Next WorldWide Health Pandemic and/or Financial Crisis, consider putting the pinch on Forum content containing soliciting and advertising.

I have no idea how many Mods Vital has and I certainly don't speak for all of them if others do exist. But I am one. And I strongly disagree with you Sirah. This thread started long before this whole virus thing started and you didn't seem to mind it then. Now we're all stuck here clicking away looking for content and small companies and startups are dying. I'm intrigued to see this tech early and try to guess how it works and others are too. This start up is stoked to have some pre release exposure which is not very common. I say it's a win win situation.
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Sesame Seed
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3/29/2020 5:37am
Big Bird wrote:
I have no idea how many Mods Vital has and I certainly don't speak for all of them if others do exist. But I am one...
I have no idea how many Mods Vital has and I certainly don't speak for all of them if others do exist. But I am one. And I strongly disagree with you Sirah. This thread started long before this whole virus thing started and you didn't seem to mind it then. Now we're all stuck here clicking away looking for content and small companies and startups are dying. I'm intrigued to see this tech early and try to guess how it works and others are too. This start up is stoked to have some pre release exposure which is not very common. I say it's a win win situation.
Dave Weagle famously did this on RideMonkey.com after his IronHorse frames were raced, ridden and owned but for tuning-archives. This thread, most-recently one other across multiple sites now I think more, create an image on forums during a period of no access to a buying public, sustaining spam forum content - the entire site becomes wholesale warehouse space

Find it real hard to be optimistic and be supportive of a few unknown breakaways from whatever other internet forums are maybe also being populated. I understand the whole "go get 'em" bump. In respect to current state of global affairs, I could really give a shit about the update to this concept making quota.

Some of us have family we cannot visit in Hospital, some of us have family who may be dying. Some of us may have family who've succumb. So, I'm sorry if there's a bit of disgust at this open, unpaid advertising on the open internet.

It's different when VitalMTB's featuring, not this other way around.
1
10
madstace
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3/29/2020 7:09am
Dave Weagle famously did this on RideMonkey.com after his IronHorse frames were raced, ridden and owned but for tuning-archives. This thread, most-recently one other across multiple...
Dave Weagle famously did this on RideMonkey.com after his IronHorse frames were raced, ridden and owned but for tuning-archives. This thread, most-recently one other across multiple sites now I think more, create an image on forums during a period of no access to a buying public, sustaining spam forum content - the entire site becomes wholesale warehouse space

Find it real hard to be optimistic and be supportive of a few unknown breakaways from whatever other internet forums are maybe also being populated. I understand the whole "go get 'em" bump. In respect to current state of global affairs, I could really give a shit about the update to this concept making quota.

Some of us have family we cannot visit in Hospital, some of us have family who may be dying. Some of us may have family who've succumb. So, I'm sorry if there's a bit of disgust at this open, unpaid advertising on the open internet.

It's different when VitalMTB's featuring, not this other way around.
Look mate, you're not really making a cohesive argument here, or even making it clear exactly what your problem is. As Big Bird said, you seemed to have no issue with the inception of this thread, prior to the world going to shit anyway. On that point, I'd like to zero in on a point you made.

It sounds like you might have people in your life acutely affected by the pandemic. If that's the case, you have my sincere sympathies. Just generally being affected by the ways the world is changing is stressful enough, let alone being affected by the virus itself. Perhaps if that's the case, maybe log off unimportant (in the grand scheme of things) forums like these, keep close to your loved ones and hopefully we'll all see each other back here with a fresh perspective when the terribleness subsides.

I'm happy to stick around however as I think it's good to give startups a bit of a leg up at anytime, and certainly can't see any profiteering or taking advantage of the current situation occurring here.
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Primoz
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3/29/2020 8:29am
What did Dave Weagle do on Ridemonkey??? And like mentioned, what is the point you're trying to make.
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