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This is a very old TQ motor though, the HPR 120S is at the very least 6 years old: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/tq-hpr-120s-2020-review/
If TQ are to drop anything new in the +100Nm/1000W range, I'd expect it to be much smaller/lighter.
Prehistoric in ebike years... It would be interesting if they comes out with something new..
I generally want to know if brands have any plans to improve long-term support on their products - especially anything electronic and electric motors. Are any of them planning on building a platform with a motor that can be repaired or upgraded/replaced over time? And are they going to be locked to an app that can disappear in a few years, or do they have EOL plans that let you keep using them as long as you want once its been discontinued? Avinox seems to be doing the drop-in upgrade part of that, but long term mechanical and app support is unknown
The same thing goes for suspension and the rest of the bike - does it look like anyone is planning on developing products that get rolling updates over several years, that existing users can easily get and install? Or sharing more parts across multiple products to reduce inventory, instead of dozens of slightly different, but unique sku's? Along with releasing parts and documentation at the same time as something is launched?
Find the weirdest product and ask why???
I think there was a Vital forum topic a while back about what people wanted to see out of E-Bike development.
What you've described was a really popular concern for many, myself included. But to beat a dead horse...
Right now e-bikes are like computers, which are essentially expensive garbage after a few years of use. Maybe even worse than computers as you can at least repurpose or repair computers.
The cynical part of my mind thinks the planned obsolescence inherent to e-goods is what "the industry" has come up with to keep money flowing now that pedal bikes are to the point where they are A) Pretty durable all things considered. B ) Not that different year on year. & C) Pretty dialed
E-biking solves those issues for the industry by being. A) vulnerable to "bricking". B ) extremely different from year to year C) Getting a lot better.
I'm just a sample of 1, but it'd have to be a pretty insane deal for me to consider buying a used e-bike; AND I believe I'm not alone in this stance. This affects the product/economic life-cycle in profoundly different ways to pedal bikes. Anecdotally, there are lots of people who have no problem buying a new pedal bike because they know it'll be worth ~50% of what they paid for it in a year or two. That amortization is worth it for lots and lots of people. My perception is in the e-bike world there is a significant chance your brand new e-bike will be worth nada/zilch in a year or two.
IMO I believe new e-bike sales would INCREASE with real mechanical support in the form of service guides and spare parts availability for consumers because it'd provide a channel for the new-ebike-purchasing type to unload their rig to scrappy enthusiast types (myself included) who are fine fixing stuff if they can save a few $K.
I'd buy a used e-bike if I knew I could fix a broken motor for an acceptable cost. Right now e bike motors need warranty or replacement if the equivalent of a set of BB bearings gets worn out. This isn't that big of a problem (for the user) if it's under warranty, but it's a big problem if it's not.
Spot on
Costs more than a YZ250, but a YZ250 I can take it in the woods or on the track and thrash it to within an inch of its life. Maybe even blow it up. But if that happens Sunday I can have the parts on the way to my front door that Monday and rebuild it myself or take it to any number of shops. And those parts should be available for five years. Long enough for a reasonable amortization of the original cost.
Until e-bikes have similar I’m not interested.
Specialized has been able to this point to keep ebikes up to 10 years old going with new parts, and within usually pretty quick turnaround, so it is possible, but they're in charge of their own parts catalog for that stuff and not many others are. Hoping this becomes the standard.
The latest Tesla power wall is about 11 kwh of usable electricity.
That's about a gallon and a half of propaine run thru a cheap generator, with current ~20% efficiency.
The theoretical peak ICE => electricity generation efficiency is over 60%, with perhaps the practical limit being around 40%. It's not a matter of 40%, 50%, or 60% power density gains that batteries need. It's an entirely different paradigm.
I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that there's a full-power TQ bike coming this year...
@jeff.brines In terms of a higher level industry question, I'd love to know if (off the record), US and European bike brands view themselves as under threat by Chinese brands like Amflow and that other company whose name slips me showing off proto frames, suspension, and brakes. The vertical integration threat seems real in this thread but I wonder if the brands see it yet.
Teewing?
Stablead is the one I was thinking of.
Yet another DJI / Avinox / Amflow update (and correction) live from Sea Otter.
When I asked about the relationship between DJI, Avinox, and Amflow, I was told they are entirely separate from one another. DJI incubated the motor program and then spun it off, branding it as Avinox. Amflow started as a proof of concept and was also spun off completely from both Avinox and DJI. They were firm in their independence from one and other.
When I pointed out to the Avinox employee that we were standing in a shared tent (Amflow and Avinox were sharing Sea Otter space with no delineation between the two brands from a display perspective), the answer was something to the effect of, 'they are a big customer of ours, so we are sharing here.' - take that for what you will.
I recorded the whole thing. I'm not sure what we'll do with the content just yet, but in the vein of wanting to stay honest and correct whatever I may be getting wrong, even when there's a lot of ambiguity on the interviewee's side, I thought it best to post this ASAP. I'll share my own take at a later date.
I think they are saying they are completely separate so they don't appear to have a conflict being a motor supplier and a bike brand. I suspect the ties are much closer than they want out in the public.
I'm guessing with the uncertainty around DJI and imports to the US, I imagine they are trying to make them as legally "separate" as they can, while still having the benefits of shared technology and of course profits....
Very definition of a Chinese wall...
Not to continue beating a dead horse, but conceptually there's a massive difference in parts availability and even what constitute repairs when you're comparing that YZ to a modern ebike.
Even at the LBS, there is no repair happening to your ebike. In the context of Bosch and Shimano at least a repair means throwing away the faulty / broken part of the system and installing a new part either under warranty or at full pop. With the rare exception of loose wires / connectors there's no diagnosis or fault-finding beyond find the broken part / replace with new part. Even if that level of availability was opened up to consumers the best you would hope for is; blew up my bottom bracket bearing on the weekend, ordered a complete drive unit from Bosch on Monday, binned the old drive unit.
In short, e-bikes are headed down an unpleasant pathway.
You think if internal combustion motors were a new invention now they would be built to be disposable?
Why are electronics so disposable, but things like IC motors are not? I have to imagine the material and engineering cost is far lower on electronic motors compared to IC motors right?
I still don't know where I stand on e-bikes fully. On the surface the value proposition seems obvious, but once you start really thinking about them compared to normal bikes it starts to get tricky. They are just so much more complicated than a normal bike, kinda ruins the lighthearted fun of riding a bike in the woods.
At a shop level, there's just a lack of capability in repairs for electric motors. You'd have to start hiring and training at an entirely new level that does not exist currently and will constantly keep shifting over the new few years. Other than a few weeks long courses, the only real training out there for shop staff is time and the older guy in the bike shop they work with and that guy doesn't exist yet for ebikes.
IC engines have had that support structure for 100 years now. Most bike shops are only just now in the last 10 years getting to the point where they pay enough that they might have a few non-transient staff that are lifers, but they still don't and won't have the clean facilities to open up, repair and re-seal to factory spec against dust and water, an electric motor that's going to get rammed through dust and dirt every day.
I work on electronics as my day job. Having to set up a clean workstation, ESD mat, microscope, soldering station, etc in a bike shop seems like a nightmare. Plus having to hire someone who is qualified as an electronics technician. I don't see it happening. It would be nice if the manufacturers stepped up and were reconditioning these motors instead of throwing them away, but there is no profit in that, so it will continue to happen.
In the US E-bike regulation is basically voluntary on behalf of the companies, right? IE the Class 1, 2, 3 thing is just a “gentleman’s agreement” and not something that is actually mandatory for companies to follow?
https://www.r-m.de/en-us/press/press-releases/riese-mueller-us/
Riese and Mueller pulling out of the US market: "Key factors include the persistently challenging and increasingly volatile market conditions in the United States."
I think the future is third party shops both flipping bricked e bikes and offering electronic repair. Much like Ruckus does in the world of composite repair.
What about when said avinox motor is also class 3?
Some states regulated it, others haven't. I don't know who was first, but whoever came up with the class 1-3 thing, a bunch of other jurisdictions jumped on board including British Columbia for a while. I would guess California was probably one of the first in North America, they always are, right?
I'm not American and don't really follow the law down there (for my own sanity, among other things), but anyway here's what appears to be California's regulations on ebike classes.
British Columbia used to follow that (in Metric), but has since come out with its own classification of ebikes and light ebikes. You will still see the old class 1-3 thing in places that appear to be regulatory but aren't necessarily of regulatory weight versus landowner weight, including on public land. BC was the first mover in this regard in Canada and I would not be surprised if other Provinces and Territories followed suit.
I would agree with the "not mandatory to follow" portion of your comment because regulations like these rely on enforcement, and we don't see it anywhere in North America to my knowledge, either on the import/sale side or the trail side.
Can one of our lovely Californian commenters and contributors go into a bike store selling Avinox or Specialized, or hell, any store selling EMTBs, and see if any of them conform with section 312.5(c): "On and after January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type."? I'm genuinely interested if that makes it on.
There's clearly a problem with unserviceable assemblies being wasted by individual component failures, but it's not so different in the automotive industry. Many of the equivalent automotive parts are almost as throwaway, they might just be slightly more modular because their larger size and weight allow them to be, but overly complicated single unit assemblies are common. Some modern internal combustion engines have the oil pump integrated into the timing cover, for example. If an EV's battery pack has an internal fault they'll often replace the entire pack, although that's probably less common.
Car mechanics don't offer electronics repair services, and most auto electricians probably aren't into surface mount repair either.
avinox released a (short) service manual for their motor. afaik that’s a first.
Pricing pressures mean most if not all automotive components are designed to be made as cheap as possible, which coincides with as unrepairable as possible.
Mercedes recently came out with what is essentially "we will start using screws to assemble headlights again as its stupid to throw away 1500 usd of front light over a 10 usd fault". But that's what's happening now as most if not all headlight assemblies are essentially permanently bonded during assembly.
Also, IC motors (engines) not being throwaway like ebike drive units are, they actually are. If you have a normie car and blow the engine, you're finding a used replacement 9 times out of 10. Most shops don't open engines and don't have the equipment and knowledge to do it. It takes a special person, a special engine or a special situation (BMW rod bearings) to make it worth opening and servicing the insides of an internal combustion engine. And even then it makes a helluva more sense to do preventive maintenance than repairing things. If you need to repair things the whole thing is usually too far gone from wear anyway.
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