At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of...
At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of bikes and P&A for roughly the cost of just shipping those goods. The storage costs were piling up and at current sell rates, they were amounting to 10+ years of inventory on hand. It was getting to the point that destroying the goods was a more financially feasible option than continuing to store them and wait for them to slowly sell for the few years those parts would still be relevant. I wonder if this "gifting" of bikes was partially born from them having so many that they didnt know what to do with them.
I heard similar rumblings as well. Maybe these being e-bikes complicated the fuck it/crush it way out? Like the disposal costs for the e-waste made in unfeasible.
I heard similar rumblings as well. Maybe these being e-bikes complicated the fuck it/crush it way out? Like the disposal costs for the e-waste made in...
I heard similar rumblings as well. Maybe these being e-bikes complicated the fuck it/crush it way out? Like the disposal costs for the e-waste made in unfeasible.
also would make some sense considering shipping costs for the batteries.
So in the past we're talked more about smaller to mid sized companies shutting down, the biggest being Kona and the CRC brands and rumors of a few others, but a lot of the small and midsize companies that had lower inventory and were quicker to move on getting that Inventory out, while maybe not all out of the water yet, seem to have stablized stock wise from what I've seen and are being careful moving forward. But now will we see the bigger guys, who had capital and sat on stuff longer thinking it would move, but have now spent that capital on storage, interest and new product going to be the ones we see start hitting the deck harder?
So in the past we're talked more about smaller to mid sized companies shutting down, the biggest being Kona and the CRC brands and rumors of...
So in the past we're talked more about smaller to mid sized companies shutting down, the biggest being Kona and the CRC brands and rumors of a few others, but a lot of the small and midsize companies that had lower inventory and were quicker to move on getting that Inventory out, while maybe not all out of the water yet, seem to have stablized stock wise from what I've seen and are being careful moving forward. But now will we see the bigger guys, who had capital and sat on stuff longer thinking it would move, but have now spent that capital on storage, interest and new product going to be the ones we see start hitting the deck harder?
Interesting point, especially because in that Moeller podcast he said Trek and Giant owe Shimano a ton of $$$. It's wild out here.
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as well as Husqvarna and GasGas e-bikes, the latter 2 maybe being part of the powersports / Pierrer group.
Reddit (not an authoritative source of course) mentions this which lines up with my assumption: KTM motorcycles and KTM bicycles are not the same. A different bike manufacturer bought the rights to the name KTM for bicycles. However the brands Husqvarna, GasGas and Felt do belong to KTM the motorcycle company. KTM bicycles is its own company that just uses the name KTM.
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as...
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as well as Husqvarna and GasGas e-bikes, the latter 2 maybe being part of the powersports / Pierrer group.
Reddit (not an authoritative source of course) mentions this which lines up with my assumption: KTM motorcycles and KTM bicycles are not the same. A different bike manufacturer bought the rights to the name KTM for bicycles. However the brands Husqvarna, GasGas and Felt do belong to KTM the motorcycle company. KTM bicycles is its own company that just uses the name KTM.
Ken it's wild that KTM thought it was better to own the brand Felt rather than start making bikes under their own name, which they licensed to somebody else.
The German article above specifically mentions that approximately half were Husqvarna branded e-bikes beginning in 2023, so it might still track.
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as...
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as well as Husqvarna and GasGas e-bikes, the latter 2 maybe being part of the powersports / Pierrer group.
Reddit (not an authoritative source of course) mentions this which lines up with my assumption: KTM motorcycles and KTM bicycles are not the same. A different bike manufacturer bought the rights to the name KTM for bicycles. However the brands Husqvarna, GasGas and Felt do belong to KTM the motorcycle company. KTM bicycles is its own company that just uses the name KTM.
KTM Bicycles seems to be pushing this fact they are a separate company pretty hard on their website right now to try and separate the two. Looking into it a bit deeper, Husqvarna moto/ebikes and KTM moto seem to be under the "Peirer Mobility AG" umbrella having the issues, who gave away the Husky e-bikes to their employee's and KTM Bicycles is separate as "KTM Fahrrad GmbH"
Lots of thoughts to share RE: Pierer Mobility AG (KTM), but I'm a bit pinched on time. I'll try and post something bigger later. If I got serious and had a podcast this would certainly be a whole episode.
Few things...
Where to get information: If you want to follow along from the "horse's mouth" always start with Pierer Mobility's IR page - https://www.pierermobility.com/en/newsroom - most everything outside of this is an opinion on this, a CGPT reread of this or some other basterdization of the real press release.
What this means: Its too early and I don't know European Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Proceedings (which is what this is) but in effect this looks like a way they can renegotiate with their creditors, write stuff off, lay off people and refocus. I'll try and spend some time understanding the differenes between chpt 11 and what this is, but from what I know its a bit faster method of getting the company "realigned toward a sustainable/durable future" than Chapter 11 proceedings here in the US.
Not that it matters, but this is unfortunately the result of everything we've been talking about in this thread plus the addition of crazy amounts of leverage and "all the hype of e-bikes". When you take these ingredients, add in a healthy dose of softening consumer sentiment - this is what you get.
E-Bikes: As I think I posted earlier (or maybe it was vitalmx) they farmed out the licensing of the KTM line of e-bikes a long time ago. The e-bikes they do "sell" includes GasGas and Husqvarna, and they suck. I do wonder if we could all try and get our hands on one of those bikes for pennies on the dollar. I'd happily pay $1K for one! Who wants to go on a scavenger hunt?!
I posted this awhile back and it still holds water. https://jeffbrines.com/2024/10/25/cfo-asleep-at-the-wheel-the-failings-… I've learned a little more from then to now, and would make some adjustments, but ultimately they need to make some huge changes. I know this is super cringe but I did send the CEO a connection request on the dumpster fire known as LinkedIn and offered my help. I'd be cheap and would kill to be a part of helping make KTM Great Again. LOL.
In 1991, the company was split into four new entities: KTM Sportmotorcycle GmbH (motorcycles division), KTM Fahrrad GmbH (bicycles division), KTM Kühler GmbH (radiators division) and KTM Werkzeugbau GmbH (tooling division).
ffs, too hard to look it up on wikipedia?KTM after 1991In 1991, the company was split into four new entities: KTM Sportmotorcycle GmbH (motorcycles...
ffs, too hard to look it up on wikipedia?
KTM after 1991
In 1991, the company was split into four new entities: KTM Sportmotorcycle GmbH (motorcycles division), KTM Fahrrad GmbH (bicycles division), KTM Kühler GmbH (radiators division) and KTM Werkzeugbau GmbH (tooling division).
nobody licensed anything to nobody
Good point! However it’s also completely immaterial considering the context of what we are discussing. The big point here is KTM bicycles and e bikes have no connection to Pierer Mobility.
We are going to make lots of these kinds of mistakes in this thread. It’s a fun discussion with lots of painting with broad strokes and running a little loose. I don’t have time to triple check every source I use.
That said I’m always happy to have more eyeballs jump in to steer toward truth and am happy to say “whoops I was wrong” (which I am here!)
At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of...
At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of bikes and P&A for roughly the cost of just shipping those goods. The storage costs were piling up and at current sell rates, they were amounting to 10+ years of inventory on hand. It was getting to the point that destroying the goods was a more financially feasible option than continuing to store them and wait for them to slowly sell for the few years those parts would still be relevant. I wonder if this "gifting" of bikes was partially born from them having so many that they didnt know what to do with them.
They could offer free flooring and incredibly low costs to dealers all over the world for these bikes and get them out of their storage places.
I'm sure if the average motorcycle dealer could get free inventory, and a cost of $1.5K for an e-bike payable once it was sold, they would have a million takers.
Once some were sold, they could offer a larger discount to have the dealer pay up front for a container.
Also, are the utilizing Alibaba, e-bay, Amazon to liquidate? X-mas is coming up!
At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of...
At sea otter, the owner of a big german distribution company said there was chatter about some of the bigger brands shopping around container loads of bikes and P&A for roughly the cost of just shipping those goods. The storage costs were piling up and at current sell rates, they were amounting to 10+ years of inventory on hand. It was getting to the point that destroying the goods was a more financially feasible option than continuing to store them and wait for them to slowly sell for the few years those parts would still be relevant. I wonder if this "gifting" of bikes was partially born from them having so many that they didnt know what to do with them.
They could offer free flooring and incredibly low costs to dealers all over the world for these bikes and get them out of their storage places.I'm...
They could offer free flooring and incredibly low costs to dealers all over the world for these bikes and get them out of their storage places.
I'm sure if the average motorcycle dealer could get free inventory, and a cost of $1.5K for an e-bike payable once it was sold, they would have a million takers.
Once some were sold, they could offer a larger discount to have the dealer pay up front for a container.
Also, are the utilizing Alibaba, e-bay, Amazon to liquidate? X-mas is coming up!
I dunno. Motorcycle dealers are having a hard enough time selling motorcycles right now.
Good point! However it’s also completely immaterial considering the context of what we are discussing. The big point here is KTM bicycles and e bikes have...
Good point! However it’s also completely immaterial considering the context of what we are discussing. The big point here is KTM bicycles and e bikes have no connection to Pierer Mobility.
We are going to make lots of these kinds of mistakes in this thread. It’s a fun discussion with lots of painting with broad strokes and running a little loose. I don’t have time to triple check every source I use.
That said I’m always happy to have more eyeballs jump in to steer toward truth and am happy to say “whoops I was wrong” (which I am here!)
Cheers
Don’t beat yourself up. If KTM had a penny for every time someone made this mistake they wouldn’t be in so much trouble.
"To ensure a sustainable and successful future, we are implementing a strategic reorientation to align with evolving customer preferences"
"Instead of selling well designed affordable bikes for intermediates and beginners were going to fleece you all with overpriced over-marketed bikes instead"
Enjoy you 10K Santa Cruz you can't put Shimano on.
"Instead of selling well designed affordable bikes for intermediates and beginners were going to fleece you all with overpriced over-marketed bikes instead"Enjoy you 10K Santa Cruz...
"Instead of selling well designed affordable bikes for intermediates and beginners were going to fleece you all with overpriced over-marketed bikes instead"
Enjoy you 10K Santa Cruz you can't put Shimano on.
GT restructuring isn't a surprise to me. The only value they brought to the market was name only IMO. Another round of Horst link bikes in a sea of Horst link bikes, geo that was too neutral/old for market preferences, spec packages that didn't align with others (even from C dale!) in B&M retail, and a BMX line that was pretty much run of the mill at best. The company used to be an innovator in product and in spectacle. I'll forgive the loss of spectacle cuz that costs serious coin, but the pure plainness of what they've pushed out for the last number of years is what contributed maximally to their present state.
My GT story; In the years 2000-2001, I was working as a team technician and road manager for Schwinn Toyota RAV4 Racing, GT also was owned by Questor at the time. Our challenging experience began in August 2001 during a World Cup race in Arai, Japan. My company credit card was suddenly declined, and we started hearing rumors from the United States that Schwinn/GT was going bankrupt.
Despite having our hotel pre-paid, we—myself and team members Elke, Leigh D, and Deldycke—found ourselves in a precarious situation. The office was giving us vague reassurances about potential loans and future payments, but the reality was much grimmer, credit cards were toast and paychecks had stopped. We headed to Mammoth for the National (with I think Tahoe world cup following?) I distinctly remember one industry executive from GT arriving at a Mammoth race in a new high-end European car, telling us everything would be fine—but it wasn't.
For the remainder of the racing season (August and September), both team staff and athletes continued to represent the brand without pay. We completed our final races at the Vail World Championships 2001, which coincidentally occurred during the 9/11 tragedy. Before I headed up to Vail, I loaded up the race semi truck/trailer at the Schwinn boulder office with all spare equipment, frames, and parts. In the parking lot on Sunday after the races I divided these assets among team members, hoping we could recover some of our lost wages and expenses.
That winter, I attended a bicycle swap meet in San Diego with my wife Leigh, selling some of our equipment. A component sponsor's manager even tried to stop us, claiming we couldn't sell the items—but we did anyway. The financial impact was significant: I was owed around $20,000, and Leigh was owed nearly $100,000 in wages and bonuses from her end-of-season titles and wins. Prominent riders like Peaty, Lopes, and Alison Dunlap similarly never received their promised bonuses, all of the Schwinn and GT BMX racers and freestylers and dirt jumpers as well.
We were given legal options: accept a flat fee of around $500-$1,000 or wait for a potential bankruptcy settlement. Leigh and I chose to wait, and about 14 months later, when Pacific Cycle purchased the brand, we received some compensation—I recall I got $6,000 or so and Leigh received 15-20k?
Around Jan/Feb of 2022, the 'new' GT approached me to reform the team and asked me to manage it. Initially reluctant, I eventually agreed. Those three years were challenging. At every dealer visit and race event I encountered overwhelming anger from customers and dealers. The brand's reputation had been severely damaged.
Many believed GT's decline began with the tragic death of its founder, Rich Long, in the mid-90s. While the word "iconic" is often overused, GT truly was an iconic Southern California—perhaps even American—brand, especially considering its incredible BMX legacy.
GT has struggled since the late 90s, particularly after Long's death and the subsequent leadership changes. Despite everything, I hope the spirit of GT bikes lives on in some capacity. Wishing the best to all GT peeps during these sudden developments.
more pierer/ktm news
https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/pierer-mobility-shares…
I heard similar rumblings as well. Maybe these being e-bikes complicated the fuck it/crush it way out? Like the disposal costs for the e-waste made in unfeasible.
also would make some sense considering shipping costs for the batteries.
So in the past we're talked more about smaller to mid sized companies shutting down, the biggest being Kona and the CRC brands and rumors of a few others, but a lot of the small and midsize companies that had lower inventory and were quicker to move on getting that Inventory out, while maybe not all out of the water yet, seem to have stablized stock wise from what I've seen and are being careful moving forward. But now will we see the bigger guys, who had capital and sat on stuff longer thinking it would move, but have now spent that capital on storage, interest and new product going to be the ones we see start hitting the deck harder?
https://dirtbikelover.com/ktm-prepares-for-bankruptcy-with-judicial-res…
Interesting point, especially because in that Moeller podcast he said Trek and Giant owe Shimano a ton of $$$. It's wild out here.
I don't see how their ebike division will make it through that.
IIRC KTM MTB is a separate company with a licensing agreement? I'm not sure where the E-MTB portfolio lands though, as there are KTM e-bikes as well as Husqvarna and GasGas e-bikes, the latter 2 maybe being part of the powersports / Pierrer group.
Reddit (not an authoritative source of course) mentions this which lines up with my assumption:
KTM motorcycles and KTM bicycles are not the same. A different bike manufacturer bought the rights to the name KTM for bicycles. However the brands Husqvarna, GasGas and Felt do belong to KTM the motorcycle company. KTM bicycles is its own company that just uses the name KTM.
Ken it's wild that KTM thought it was better to own the brand Felt rather than start making bikes under their own name, which they licensed to somebody else.
The German article above specifically mentions that approximately half were Husqvarna branded e-bikes beginning in 2023, so it might still track.
KTM Bicycles seems to be pushing this fact they are a separate company pretty hard on their website right now to try and separate the two. Looking into it a bit deeper, Husqvarna moto/ebikes and KTM moto seem to be under the "Peirer Mobility AG" umbrella having the issues, who gave away the Husky e-bikes to their employee's and KTM Bicycles is separate as "KTM Fahrrad GmbH"
https://www.ktm-bikes.at/clarification
That would be very confusing for a consumer but interesting to see them push away from the clearly sinking cousin.
Lots of thoughts to share RE: Pierer Mobility AG (KTM), but I'm a bit pinched on time. I'll try and post something bigger later. If I got serious and had a podcast this would certainly be a whole episode.
Few things...
Where to get information: If you want to follow along from the "horse's mouth" always start with Pierer Mobility's IR page - https://www.pierermobility.com/en/newsroom - most everything outside of this is an opinion on this, a CGPT reread of this or some other basterdization of the real press release.
What this means: Its too early and I don't know European Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Proceedings (which is what this is) but in effect this looks like a way they can renegotiate with their creditors, write stuff off, lay off people and refocus. I'll try and spend some time understanding the differenes between chpt 11 and what this is, but from what I know its a bit faster method of getting the company "realigned toward a sustainable/durable future" than Chapter 11 proceedings here in the US.
Not that it matters, but this is unfortunately the result of everything we've been talking about in this thread plus the addition of crazy amounts of leverage and "all the hype of e-bikes". When you take these ingredients, add in a healthy dose of softening consumer sentiment - this is what you get.
E-Bikes: As I think I posted earlier (or maybe it was vitalmx) they farmed out the licensing of the KTM line of e-bikes a long time ago. The e-bikes they do "sell" includes GasGas and Husqvarna, and they suck. I do wonder if we could all try and get our hands on one of those bikes for pennies on the dollar. I'd happily pay $1K for one! Who wants to go on a scavenger hunt?!
I posted this awhile back and it still holds water. https://jeffbrines.com/2024/10/25/cfo-asleep-at-the-wheel-the-failings-… I've learned a little more from then to now, and would make some adjustments, but ultimately they need to make some huge changes. I know this is super cringe but I did send the CEO a connection request on the dumpster fire known as LinkedIn and offered my help. I'd be cheap and would kill to be a part of helping make KTM Great Again. LOL.
ffs, too hard to look it up on wikipedia?
KTM after 1991
In 1991, the company was split into four new entities: KTM Sportmotorcycle GmbH (motorcycles division), KTM Fahrrad GmbH (bicycles division), KTM Kühler GmbH (radiators division) and KTM Werkzeugbau GmbH (tooling division).
nobody licensed anything to nobody
Good point! However it’s also completely immaterial considering the context of what we are discussing. The big point here is KTM bicycles and e bikes have no connection to Pierer Mobility.
We are going to make lots of these kinds of mistakes in this thread. It’s a fun discussion with lots of painting with broad strokes and running a little loose. I don’t have time to triple check every source I use.
That said I’m always happy to have more eyeballs jump in to steer toward truth and am happy to say “whoops I was wrong” (which I am here!)
Cheers
HALF!!
Honestly 10% off models that following product cycles of 10 years ago shouldn't yet exist in the public eye is pretty big too.
They could offer free flooring and incredibly low costs to dealers all over the world for these bikes and get them out of their storage places.
I'm sure if the average motorcycle dealer could get free inventory, and a cost of $1.5K for an e-bike payable once it was sold, they would have a million takers.
Once some were sold, they could offer a larger discount to have the dealer pay up front for a container.
Also, are the utilizing Alibaba, e-bay, Amazon to liquidate? X-mas is coming up!
I dunno. Motorcycle dealers are having a hard enough time selling motorcycles right now.
The Craftworks website has gone off the air, which I think might end my hope for a new generation of ENR
Heard rumors of BMC stopping with Scor
Don’t beat yourself up. If KTM had a penny for every time someone made this mistake they wouldn’t be in so much trouble.
Oh no!,what a shame
From Skills with Phil, GT is donezo.
Pon called it quits for them
BRAIN article out too:
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2024/12/17/gt-bicycles-pausing-new-product-releases-reducing-workforce
"To ensure a sustainable and successful future, we are implementing a strategic reorientation to align with evolving customer preferences"
"Instead of selling well designed affordable bikes for intermediates and beginners were going to fleece you all with overpriced over-marketed bikes instead"
Enjoy you 10K Santa Cruz you can't put Shimano on.
…yet…
Rockguardz closed.
GT restructuring isn't a surprise to me. The only value they brought to the market was name only IMO. Another round of Horst link bikes in a sea of Horst link bikes, geo that was too neutral/old for market preferences, spec packages that didn't align with others (even from C dale!) in B&M retail, and a BMX line that was pretty much run of the mill at best. The company used to be an innovator in product and in spectacle. I'll forgive the loss of spectacle cuz that costs serious coin, but the pure plainness of what they've pushed out for the last number of years is what contributed maximally to their present state.
My GT story;
In the years 2000-2001, I was working as a team technician and road manager for Schwinn Toyota RAV4 Racing, GT also was owned by Questor at the time. Our challenging experience began in August 2001 during a World Cup race in Arai, Japan. My company credit card was suddenly declined, and we started hearing rumors from the United States that Schwinn/GT was going bankrupt.
Despite having our hotel pre-paid, we—myself and team members Elke, Leigh D, and Deldycke—found ourselves in a precarious situation. The office was giving us vague reassurances about potential loans and future payments, but the reality was much grimmer, credit cards were toast and paychecks had stopped. We headed to Mammoth for the National (with I think Tahoe world cup following?) I distinctly remember one industry executive from GT arriving at a Mammoth race in a new high-end European car, telling us everything would be fine—but it wasn't.
For the remainder of the racing season (August and September), both team staff and athletes continued to represent the brand without pay. We completed our final races at the Vail World Championships 2001, which coincidentally occurred during the 9/11 tragedy. Before I headed up to Vail, I loaded up the race semi truck/trailer at the Schwinn boulder office with all spare equipment, frames, and parts. In the parking lot on Sunday after the races I divided these assets among team members, hoping we could recover some of our lost wages and expenses.
That winter, I attended a bicycle swap meet in San Diego with my wife Leigh, selling some of our equipment. A component sponsor's manager even tried to stop us, claiming we couldn't sell the items—but we did anyway. The financial impact was significant: I was owed around $20,000, and Leigh was owed nearly $100,000 in wages and bonuses from her end-of-season titles and wins. Prominent riders like Peaty, Lopes, and Alison Dunlap similarly never received their promised bonuses, all of the Schwinn and GT BMX racers and freestylers and dirt jumpers as well.
We were given legal options: accept a flat fee of around $500-$1,000 or wait for a potential bankruptcy settlement. Leigh and I chose to wait, and about 14 months later, when Pacific Cycle purchased the brand, we received some compensation—I recall I got $6,000 or so and Leigh received 15-20k?
Around Jan/Feb of 2022, the 'new' GT approached me to reform the team and asked me to manage it. Initially reluctant, I eventually agreed. Those three years were challenging. At every dealer visit and race event I encountered overwhelming anger from customers and dealers. The brand's reputation had been severely damaged.
Many believed GT's decline began with the tragic death of its founder, Rich Long, in the mid-90s. While the word "iconic" is often overused, GT truly was an iconic Southern California—perhaps even American—brand, especially considering its incredible BMX legacy.
GT has struggled since the late 90s, particularly after Long's death and the subsequent leadership changes. Despite everything, I hope the spirit of GT bikes lives on in some capacity. Wishing the best to all GT peeps during these sudden developments.
Post a reply to: Will more companies be shutting down in the next 12-24 months?