My guess is off-road cycling absolutely eclipses golf in the rest of the world. Tons of recreational cyclists in Continental Europe for example that ride FSRs...
My guess is off-road cycling absolutely eclipses golf in the rest of the world. Tons of recreational cyclists in Continental Europe for example that ride FSRs vs. golfers. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen a golf course in Germany, France, or Italy.
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very strong golf cultures and some of the top courses in the world. I have spent a lot of my career working in Europe and met almost no one who would consider MTB a hobby (they think it is odd that I do for the most part) but I know literally (no exaggeration) at least 100 people that are avid golfers in those countries. So, as always, some perspective is needed in that we tend to see what we know. I'm always going to notice more MTB opportunities than someone that only plays golf and isn't an avid MTB rider. I'm also going to always see more golf opportunities than someone that rarely plays golf and rides all of the time.
One anecdote for you as well. I went to both XC races and also the golf tournament at the Paris Olympics this year. They were actually very close by each other. Orders of magnitude more people attended the golf. I mean, it wasn't even comparable by a long shot. I would guess there were several individual holes that had more people on them than the entire attendance of the XC races. It is hard to judge because on the ground you can't see everyone but if I were to just judge by the concessions alone, it took around 3 min to get a soda and a bottle of water at the XC race in the main concession area. It took almost 40 min to do the same at the golf tournament even though there were 5 times the number of stands in the main area.
I wonder if they'll still make motors? Could cause Giant some problems if not.
That Yamaha motor contract with Giant is lowkey one of the largest contract in the industry, I would be very surprised if Yamaha were to drop Giant.
Their eMTBs were outdated and not competitive at all, smart decision to get rid of that division. Being forced to move their inventory at 60% off is all you need to know about these bikes.
PON recently announced that they'll be shutting down the Santa Cruz assembly plant in Mainz, Germany. From what I've heard, Santa Cruz might be in trouble, with plummeting sales numbers - at least in Europe.
PON recently announced that they'll be shutting down the Santa Cruz assembly plant in Mainz, Germany. From what I've heard, Santa Cruz might be in trouble...
PON recently announced that they'll be shutting down the Santa Cruz assembly plant in Mainz, Germany. From what I've heard, Santa Cruz might be in trouble, with plummeting sales numbers - at least in Europe.
Yeah @Mwood already posted the news from a german site that SC/Cervelo is closing their assembly line in Mainz (near Frankfurt) but most likely because PON also have an bike assembly line in Emstek (somewhat close to Hamburg) that was also assembling SC/Cervelo bikes and reserve wheels.
Most likely the Emstek site can scale bigger for cheaper and is closer to the main European ports. So Pon decided to consolidate to a single assembly plant in Germany.
Mainz office will remain open for the sales and marketing staff.
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very...
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very strong golf cultures and some of the top courses in the world. I have spent a lot of my career working in Europe and met almost no one who would consider MTB a hobby (they think it is odd that I do for the most part) but I know literally (no exaggeration) at least 100 people that are avid golfers in those countries. So, as always, some perspective is needed in that we tend to see what we know. I'm always going to notice more MTB opportunities than someone that only plays golf and isn't an avid MTB rider. I'm also going to always see more golf opportunities than someone that rarely plays golf and rides all of the time.
One anecdote for you as well. I went to both XC races and also the golf tournament at the Paris Olympics this year. They were actually very close by each other. Orders of magnitude more people attended the golf. I mean, it wasn't even comparable by a long shot. I would guess there were several individual holes that had more people on them than the entire attendance of the XC races. It is hard to judge because on the ground you can't see everyone but if I were to just judge by the concessions alone, it took around 3 min to get a soda and a bottle of water at the XC race in the main concession area. It took almost 40 min to do the same at the golf tournament even though there were 5 times the number of stands in the main area.
Venue Events Capacity Le Golf National Golf 35,000 Élancourt Hill MTB 25,000
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very...
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very strong golf cultures and some of the top courses in the world. I have spent a lot of my career working in Europe and met almost no one who would consider MTB a hobby (they think it is odd that I do for the most part) but I know literally (no exaggeration) at least 100 people that are avid golfers in those countries. So, as always, some perspective is needed in that we tend to see what we know. I'm always going to notice more MTB opportunities than someone that only plays golf and isn't an avid MTB rider. I'm also going to always see more golf opportunities than someone that rarely plays golf and rides all of the time.
One anecdote for you as well. I went to both XC races and also the golf tournament at the Paris Olympics this year. They were actually very close by each other. Orders of magnitude more people attended the golf. I mean, it wasn't even comparable by a long shot. I would guess there were several individual holes that had more people on them than the entire attendance of the XC races. It is hard to judge because on the ground you can't see everyone but if I were to just judge by the concessions alone, it took around 3 min to get a soda and a bottle of water at the XC race in the main concession area. It took almost 40 min to do the same at the golf tournament even though there were 5 times the number of stands in the main area.
Venue Events Capacity Le Golf National Golf 35,000 Élancourt Hill MTB 25,000
Yeah, I didn't look it up but I can just tell you what it was like on the ground and also what it was like getting a ticket. If that's correct number wise (and I have no reason to doubt that it is) then Elancourt Hill was not even close to full. Kinda makes sense as the XC tickets were by far the least expensive tickets we bought. Table Tennis were second and they were almost three times as expensive. Unfortunately (but fortunately for me), most of my tickets were corporately provided so I can only compare XC, table tennis, golf, one basketball game, team fencing, gymnastics and 3X3 basketball in ticket prices. For Women's XC I paid $40 each and for the men's I paid $28 for one (my wife couldn't make it). Golf was around $200/ticket the days we went. Those were all secondary market tickets.
Nothing to do with this post-Table tennis and fencing were both way, way more intense than either 😂
Yeah, I didn't look it up but I can just tell you what it was like on the ground and also what it was like getting...
Yeah, I didn't look it up but I can just tell you what it was like on the ground and also what it was like getting a ticket. If that's correct number wise (and I have no reason to doubt that it is) then Elancourt Hill was not even close to full. Kinda makes sense as the XC tickets were by far the least expensive tickets we bought. Table Tennis were second and they were almost three times as expensive. Unfortunately (but fortunately for me), most of my tickets were corporately provided so I can only compare XC, table tennis, golf, one basketball game, team fencing, gymnastics and 3X3 basketball in ticket prices. For Women's XC I paid $40 each and for the men's I paid $28 for one (my wife couldn't make it). Golf was around $200/ticket the days we went. Those were all secondary market tickets.
Nothing to do with this post-Table tennis and fencing were both way, way more intense than either 😂
That's cool... whatever you do for business, are they hiring?
Or you could make as many bikes as you want, force your dealer network to pre-buy bikes ahead of time with the promise of a small...
Or you could make as many bikes as you want, force your dealer network to pre-buy bikes ahead of time with the promise of a small volume discount, and then they get stuck with your overstock sitting on their books and sales floors. Win win!
Kinda ironic that having bikes is one of the things that is most dangerous to a shop's financial well-being..
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward with the internet era and 'digital sales' where shops basically end up as like drop shippers for lack of a better term.
An interesting case study being The Path in Orange County who I think took their original store and basically made it an outright warehouse (borderline distro building) to handle online sales pick up and inventory and stuff... And opened a new separate location that actually does their standard service and sales. Sounds like they adapted VERY well to the modern MTBing industry in SoCal.
There is something very special about a well stocked bike shop. Wall of handle bars, grips, seats. Nice pedal display. Bikes stacked to the ceiling. Just about Every bike tool or brake pad you could reasonably need. Loads of shoes, pads, helmets in various sizes and price ranges. But unless you are in a metro with a devoloped bike scene or in a wealthier area with an extremely devoloped bike scene you helped cultivate it’s a bad business decision. Having just enough stock a guy can walk around the shop after dropping off the bike for service and focusing on services you can offer in your community is the way to go.
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward...
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward with the internet era and 'digital sales' where shops basically end up as like drop shippers for lack of a better term.
An interesting case study being The Path in Orange County who I think took their original store and basically made it an outright warehouse (borderline distro building) to handle online sales pick up and inventory and stuff... And opened a new separate location that actually does their standard service and sales. Sounds like they adapted VERY well to the modern MTBing industry in SoCal.
A friend of mine did exactly this, he was making way more money out of service than he was from bikes. It also meant he could get away with much smaller premises, significantly reduced overheads and escape from customers who had the expectation that he should price match with larger retailers and the internet.
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward...
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward with the internet era and 'digital sales' where shops basically end up as like drop shippers for lack of a better term.
An interesting case study being The Path in Orange County who I think took their original store and basically made it an outright warehouse (borderline distro building) to handle online sales pick up and inventory and stuff... And opened a new separate location that actually does their standard service and sales. Sounds like they adapted VERY well to the modern MTBing industry in SoCal.
Look at the people who are doing well with mobile repair.. No bikes to stock, a limited usually carefully selected amount of parts on hand and some will carry a small amount of accessories like lights and helmets. Also, no expensive multi-year lease to deal with.
Anyone that has worked in a shop and has looked at the numbers can see that the best profit margins typically come out of the service department..
Look at the people who are doing well with mobile repair.. No bikes to stock, a limited usually carefully selected amount of parts on hand and...
Look at the people who are doing well with mobile repair.. No bikes to stock, a limited usually carefully selected amount of parts on hand and some will carry a small amount of accessories like lights and helmets. Also, no expensive multi-year lease to deal with.
Anyone that has worked in a shop and has looked at the numbers can see that the best profit margins typically come out of the service department..
Service may have the best margins but it is time limited. You can only do so much work in a day. Mobile cuts down on overheads but driving to clients eats into your billable hours hugely. Also (at least anecdotally) there's an expectation that rates will be lower as you are 'not a proper shop' and getting trade accounts here is much harder if you don't have a bricks and mortar store.
Service may have the best margins but it is time limited. You can only do so much work in a day. Mobile cuts down on overheads...
Service may have the best margins but it is time limited. You can only do so much work in a day. Mobile cuts down on overheads but driving to clients eats into your billable hours hugely. Also (at least anecdotally) there's an expectation that rates will be lower as you are 'not a proper shop' and getting trade accounts here is much harder if you don't have a bricks and mortar store.
It's actually getting easier to get set up with accounts from the distributors, but they all have different requirements. For instance, one of the biggest companies want you to have a vehicle that you can stand up and work in..
As for the expectation of being cheaper, remember, you are selling a premium service that is making things convenient for the customer and if they don't want to pay for that, then they can go to the brick and motar shop. There are pros and cons to every business model.
Well one of the things about mobile repair is... I guess depending on your city you can basically set up shop at a trailhead or MTB-adjacent area and still act as a 'static' shop. Ironically Gravity Cycles in Orange County worked the opposite way. Starting as a mobile service, to my knowledge, and just recently opening a building as well. But yeah if cops aren't gonna make a fuss you can just pick an appropriate area and just have customers come to you. But the population density of SoCal is fairly unique so not sure how well that applies many places. But still if it's at a trailhead people might like to roll through just to shoot the shit. That's honestly what I see at Gravity's truck. Dudes are just there pre-ride or post-ride to chat. Brilliant natural 'marketing'.
Well one of the things about mobile repair is... I guess depending on your city you can basically set up shop at a trailhead or MTB-adjacent...
Well one of the things about mobile repair is... I guess depending on your city you can basically set up shop at a trailhead or MTB-adjacent area and still act as a 'static' shop. Ironically Gravity Cycles in Orange County worked the opposite way. Starting as a mobile service, to my knowledge, and just recently opening a building as well. But yeah if cops aren't gonna make a fuss you can just pick an appropriate area and just have customers come to you. But the population density of SoCal is fairly unique so not sure how well that applies many places. But still if it's at a trailhead people might like to roll through just to shoot the shit. That's honestly what I see at Gravity's truck. Dudes are just there pre-ride or post-ride to chat. Brilliant natural 'marketing'.
I have seen a few people start mobile and move into a building.. The natural marketing you mentioned is a big part of a mobile.. In my area, it would be easy to park near one of the two entrances to the trails without any hassles.. Also, a tip used by one of the bigger players is if you're not at a job, park in a busy parking lot and work on your own bike. Make it easy for people to see you and see what you are doing..
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way they actually are being bought to do the same exact thing. How willfully ignorant can you be to try to take that model in the current economy/industry and figure out a better way to work it?
So the question is, if they were smart enough to pivot to an adjacent model what do you think they could even pull off? An obvious one would be another Jenson clone as a standard store using that existing warehouse but again that's a heavy competition market still in an ailing economy/industry. Arguably a hybrid model of both used and new would at least be more diverse and better prepared to take advantage of either direction if one takes off more than the other.
But what else could they likely do with a well known web platform and oversized warehouse?
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way...
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way they actually are being bought to do the same exact thing. How willfully ignorant can you be to try to take that model in the current economy/industry and figure out a better way to work it?
So the question is, if they were smart enough to pivot to an adjacent model what do you think they could even pull off? An obvious one would be another Jenson clone as a standard store using that existing warehouse but again that's a heavy competition market still in an ailing economy/industry. Arguably a hybrid model of both used and new would at least be more diverse and better prepared to take advantage of either direction if one takes off more than the other.
But what else could they likely do with a well known web platform and oversized warehouse?
The Escape Collective posted above goes over why the original PE model saddled them with debt vs the model they have now. Not saying it will work better but it isn't just doing the same thing that matters. How it is financed matters quite a bit.
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way...
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way they actually are being bought to do the same exact thing. How willfully ignorant can you be to try to take that model in the current economy/industry and figure out a better way to work it?
So the question is, if they were smart enough to pivot to an adjacent model what do you think they could even pull off? An obvious one would be another Jenson clone as a standard store using that existing warehouse but again that's a heavy competition market still in an ailing economy/industry. Arguably a hybrid model of both used and new would at least be more diverse and better prepared to take advantage of either direction if one takes off more than the other.
But what else could they likely do with a well known web platform and oversized warehouse?
The Escape Collective posted above goes over why the original PE model saddled them with debt vs the model they have now. Not saying it will...
The Escape Collective posted above goes over why the original PE model saddled them with debt vs the model they have now. Not saying it will work better but it isn't just doing the same thing that matters. How it is financed matters quite a bit.
Meh, I don't want to be reductive of their statements nor my lackluster reading comprehension but it seemed like a top to bottom nothing burger and where it gets some points in the 'we arent siphoning money from PE sources with no ability to pay them back and massively generating debt'... It still ultimately loses points in the 'this is one of the worst business models to attempt to operate in a massive industry down turn' part. So, call it a moot point at net zero now. I still don't understand what they are legitimately doing differently.
From what I read they literally said hire the same staff, do the same thing, and then literally sit on our hands with our fingers crossed (ignoring the discomfort) and hope that the holidays at least get us started. Not an analogy I should be making but... If that article was an investment thesis for a stock it would just equate to a massive red flag imo. Again, not a business or english major. Someone else can point out the golden goose I missed within that article that actually highlights change. (Outside of the investment part which... Again is GOOD no doubt but is ultimately countered by the current market. Sure you're not starting with inherent debt... But you're still not in a position to generate viable revenue especially if you want to re-hire more of the old staff.)
I think my question still stands. If (when?) the overpriced scondhand bike sales don't work out, what could they do that sounds efficacious?
Or you could make as many bikes as you want, force your dealer network to pre-buy bikes ahead of time with the promise of a small...
Or you could make as many bikes as you want, force your dealer network to pre-buy bikes ahead of time with the promise of a small volume discount, and then they get stuck with your overstock sitting on their books and sales floors. Win win!
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward...
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward with the internet era and 'digital sales' where shops basically end up as like drop shippers for lack of a better term.
An interesting case study being The Path in Orange County who I think took their original store and basically made it an outright warehouse (borderline distro building) to handle online sales pick up and inventory and stuff... And opened a new separate location that actually does their standard service and sales. Sounds like they adapted VERY well to the modern MTBing industry in SoCal.
thats exactly what bike-components.de does with their b2b offering, you can offer your customers next day delivery on all the parts they sell and see in the app how much it would cost the shop and the shop can chose how big of a margin they want to make
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way...
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way they actually are being bought to do the same exact thing. How willfully ignorant can you be to try to take that model in the current economy/industry and figure out a better way to work it?
So the question is, if they were smart enough to pivot to an adjacent model what do you think they could even pull off? An obvious one would be another Jenson clone as a standard store using that existing warehouse but again that's a heavy competition market still in an ailing economy/industry. Arguably a hybrid model of both used and new would at least be more diverse and better prepared to take advantage of either direction if one takes off more than the other.
But what else could they likely do with a well known web platform and oversized warehouse?
As I read the PR, it sounds like they are moving to a different location (smaller?) and going back to their core business of used bikes. I'm thinking between too much growth on the physical assets (building and equipment) and buying overstock from manufacturers, they potentially were spending way more than they were bringing in.. I doubt that they were getting terms to pay off the bikes they were trying to move for the bigger players.. Even if they were, the economy didn't help them..
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually wants. It's no surprise the former owners failed, I just legit don't see quite where the new owners succeed here. Even if they intelligently manage refurnishing, restaffing, and restocking the business. It seems like it's just an outright gamble on the market normalizing and being able to do the exact same thing at a smaller scale. "Bold strategy Cotton, let's see how it pays off for em."
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually...
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually wants. It's no surprise the former owners failed, I just legit don't see quite where the new owners succeed here. Even if they intelligently manage refurnishing, restaffing, and restocking the business. It seems like it's just an outright gamble on the market normalizing and being able to do the exact same thing at a smaller scale. "Bold strategy Cotton, let's see how it pays off for em."
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and growing infrastructure well past the means of the business is one of them. As a refresher, TPC raised ~$60M (that isn't a typo) from 2019-2024. Two of my favorite finance minds (Bill Gurley is the mentor I wish I had) talk about the idea of company's raising beyond their means on their pod this week. The important part starts around 12:30.
Some of this I touched on briefly in the Pod I did with Spomer, but those really interested in the perverse incentives of "modern venture capital", namely around fees, size of fund and expected outcome, this is an excellent listen. If I'm honest, much of this thinking and risk taking seemed to trickle all the way into the bike industry, which is bonkers.
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it is listed at. Silent discounts on new Santa Cruz models already?
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it...
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it is listed at. Silent discounts on new Santa Cruz models already?
I'm guessing they need to move some product and not get in trouble with Santa Cruz for a MAP violation.. A manufacturer can't tell the dealer what they can sell a product for, but they can tell them what they can advertise it at..
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually...
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually wants. It's no surprise the former owners failed, I just legit don't see quite where the new owners succeed here. Even if they intelligently manage refurnishing, restaffing, and restocking the business. It seems like it's just an outright gamble on the market normalizing and being able to do the exact same thing at a smaller scale. "Bold strategy Cotton, let's see how it pays off for em."
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and...
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and growing infrastructure well past the means of the business is one of them. As a refresher, TPC raised ~$60M (that isn't a typo) from 2019-2024. Two of my favorite finance minds (Bill Gurley is the mentor I wish I had) talk about the idea of company's raising beyond their means on their pod this week. The important part starts around 12:30.
Some of this I touched on briefly in the Pod I did with Spomer, but those really interested in the perverse incentives of "modern venture capital", namely around fees, size of fund and expected outcome, this is an excellent listen. If I'm honest, much of this thinking and risk taking seemed to trickle all the way into the bike industry, which is bonkers.
If you had to guess... What leads a company at TPCs level to bother raising 60m? The general idea of 'if you could you should' and maybe even 'we can achieve anything with this kind of capital'? I don't see how you don't view that as basically a large high risk loan or something. I would be sprinting away from that money (granted, I am no genius with a marketable idea)... But ya what in gods name did TPC think they were gonna do with all that to turn it around lol
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it...
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it is listed at. Silent discounts on new Santa Cruz models already?
Are you sure it's actually the CC frame? SC was going to be selling the C frames for the Bronson and Hightower due to the backlash over the CC not having cable routing for a derailleur.
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and...
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and growing infrastructure well past the means of the business is one of them. As a refresher, TPC raised ~$60M (that isn't a typo) from 2019-2024. Two of my favorite finance minds (Bill Gurley is the mentor I wish I had) talk about the idea of company's raising beyond their means on their pod this week. The important part starts around 12:30.
Some of this I touched on briefly in the Pod I did with Spomer, but those really interested in the perverse incentives of "modern venture capital", namely around fees, size of fund and expected outcome, this is an excellent listen. If I'm honest, much of this thinking and risk taking seemed to trickle all the way into the bike industry, which is bonkers.
Going off the pod, it seems that for a brief moment, the bike industry showed huge growth and sales that many thought would carry on, and with the low interest rates during the pandemic, the bike industry actually looked promising to some investors that would normally not look at us.. And when things changed, they either pulled their money out or just let the company die..
You may be correct, especially in Germany, but I've played a ton of golf in all three of those countries. France and Italy both have very strong golf cultures and some of the top courses in the world. I have spent a lot of my career working in Europe and met almost no one who would consider MTB a hobby (they think it is odd that I do for the most part) but I know literally (no exaggeration) at least 100 people that are avid golfers in those countries. So, as always, some perspective is needed in that we tend to see what we know. I'm always going to notice more MTB opportunities than someone that only plays golf and isn't an avid MTB rider. I'm also going to always see more golf opportunities than someone that rarely plays golf and rides all of the time.
One anecdote for you as well. I went to both XC races and also the golf tournament at the Paris Olympics this year. They were actually very close by each other. Orders of magnitude more people attended the golf. I mean, it wasn't even comparable by a long shot. I would guess there were several individual holes that had more people on them than the entire attendance of the XC races. It is hard to judge because on the ground you can't see everyone but if I were to just judge by the concessions alone, it took around 3 min to get a soda and a bottle of water at the XC race in the main concession area. It took almost 40 min to do the same at the golf tournament even though there were 5 times the number of stands in the main area.
That Yamaha motor contract with Giant is lowkey one of the largest contract in the industry, I would be very surprised if Yamaha were to drop Giant.
Their eMTBs were outdated and not competitive at all, smart decision to get rid of that division. Being forced to move their inventory at 60% off is all you need to know about these bikes.
PON recently announced that they'll be shutting down the Santa Cruz assembly plant in Mainz, Germany. From what I've heard, Santa Cruz might be in trouble, with plummeting sales numbers - at least in Europe.
Yeah @Mwood already posted the news from a german site that SC/Cervelo is closing their assembly line in Mainz (near Frankfurt) but most likely because PON also have an bike assembly line in Emstek (somewhat close to Hamburg) that was also assembling SC/Cervelo bikes and reserve wheels.
Most likely the Emstek site can scale bigger for cheaper and is closer to the main European ports. So Pon decided to consolidate to a single assembly plant in Germany.
Mainz office will remain open for the sales and marketing staff.
https://www.mtb-news.de/news/pon-santa-cruz-cervelo-produktion-schliessung-mainz/
Venue Events Capacity
Le Golf National Golf 35,000
Élancourt Hill MTB 25,000
Yeah, I didn't look it up but I can just tell you what it was like on the ground and also what it was like getting a ticket. If that's correct number wise (and I have no reason to doubt that it is) then Elancourt Hill was not even close to full. Kinda makes sense as the XC tickets were by far the least expensive tickets we bought. Table Tennis were second and they were almost three times as expensive. Unfortunately (but fortunately for me), most of my tickets were corporately provided so I can only compare XC, table tennis, golf, one basketball game, team fencing, gymnastics and 3X3 basketball in ticket prices. For Women's XC I paid $40 each and for the men's I paid $28 for one (my wife couldn't make it). Golf was around $200/ticket the days we went. Those were all secondary market tickets.
Nothing to do with this post-Table tennis and fencing were both way, way more intense than either 😂
That's cool... whatever you do for business, are they hiring?
Yup. And interesting how viable a store with no bikes but service and common replacement parts could be. It's definitely something to think about going forward with the internet era and 'digital sales' where shops basically end up as like drop shippers for lack of a better term.
An interesting case study being The Path in Orange County who I think took their original store and basically made it an outright warehouse (borderline distro building) to handle online sales pick up and inventory and stuff... And opened a new separate location that actually does their standard service and sales. Sounds like they adapted VERY well to the modern MTBing industry in SoCal.
There is something very special about a well stocked bike shop. Wall of handle bars, grips, seats. Nice pedal display. Bikes stacked to the ceiling. Just about Every bike tool or brake pad you could reasonably need. Loads of shoes, pads, helmets in various sizes and price ranges. But unless you are in a metro with a devoloped bike scene or in a wealthier area with an extremely devoloped bike scene you helped cultivate it’s a bad business decision. Having just enough stock a guy can walk around the shop after dropping off the bike for service and focusing on services you can offer in your community is the way to go.
A friend of mine did exactly this, he was making way more money out of service than he was from bikes. It also meant he could get away with much smaller premises, significantly reduced overheads and escape from customers who had the expectation that he should price match with larger retailers and the internet.
Look at the people who are doing well with mobile repair.. No bikes to stock, a limited usually carefully selected amount of parts on hand and some will carry a small amount of accessories like lights and helmets. Also, no expensive multi-year lease to deal with.
Anyone that has worked in a shop and has looked at the numbers can see that the best profit margins typically come out of the service department..
Service may have the best margins but it is time limited. You can only do so much work in a day. Mobile cuts down on overheads but driving to clients eats into your billable hours hugely.
Also (at least anecdotally) there's an expectation that rates will be lower as you are 'not a proper shop' and getting trade accounts here is much harder if you don't have a bricks and mortar store.
It's actually getting easier to get set up with accounts from the distributors, but they all have different requirements. For instance, one of the biggest companies want you to have a vehicle that you can stand up and work in..
As for the expectation of being cheaper, remember, you are selling a premium service that is making things convenient for the customer and if they don't want to pay for that, then they can go to the brick and motar shop. There are pros and cons to every business model.
As seen on Bicycle Retailer, TPC is back after a 1 month hiatus..
Yeah, absolutely crazy. https://escapecollective.com/the-pros-closet-is-back/
Honestly, I was hoping they would stay down. Having companies like this lead to a dramatically over valued used bike market, with no real turnover.
Well one of the things about mobile repair is... I guess depending on your city you can basically set up shop at a trailhead or MTB-adjacent area and still act as a 'static' shop. Ironically Gravity Cycles in Orange County worked the opposite way. Starting as a mobile service, to my knowledge, and just recently opening a building as well. But yeah if cops aren't gonna make a fuss you can just pick an appropriate area and just have customers come to you. But the population density of SoCal is fairly unique so not sure how well that applies many places. But still if it's at a trailhead people might like to roll through just to shoot the shit. That's honestly what I see at Gravity's truck. Dudes are just there pre-ride or post-ride to chat. Brilliant natural 'marketing'.
I have seen a few people start mobile and move into a building.. The natural marketing you mentioned is a big part of a mobile.. In my area, it would be easy to park near one of the two entrances to the trails without any hassles.. Also, a tip used by one of the bigger players is if you're not at a job, park in a busy parking lot and work on your own bike. Make it easy for people to see you and see what you are doing..
Alright boys don't wanna derail the thread too much (more than it already does) but in regards to the TPC thing... Surely there is no way they actually are being bought to do the same exact thing. How willfully ignorant can you be to try to take that model in the current economy/industry and figure out a better way to work it?
So the question is, if they were smart enough to pivot to an adjacent model what do you think they could even pull off? An obvious one would be another Jenson clone as a standard store using that existing warehouse but again that's a heavy competition market still in an ailing economy/industry. Arguably a hybrid model of both used and new would at least be more diverse and better prepared to take advantage of either direction if one takes off more than the other.
But what else could they likely do with a well known web platform and oversized warehouse?
The Escape Collective posted above goes over why the original PE model saddled them with debt vs the model they have now. Not saying it will work better but it isn't just doing the same thing that matters. How it is financed matters quite a bit.
Meh, I don't want to be reductive of their statements nor my lackluster reading comprehension but it seemed like a top to bottom nothing burger and where it gets some points in the 'we arent siphoning money from PE sources with no ability to pay them back and massively generating debt'... It still ultimately loses points in the 'this is one of the worst business models to attempt to operate in a massive industry down turn' part. So, call it a moot point at net zero now. I still don't understand what they are legitimately doing differently.
From what I read they literally said hire the same staff, do the same thing, and then literally sit on our hands with our fingers crossed (ignoring the discomfort) and hope that the holidays at least get us started. Not an analogy I should be making but... If that article was an investment thesis for a stock it would just equate to a massive red flag imo. Again, not a business or english major. Someone else can point out the golden goose I missed within that article that actually highlights change. (Outside of the investment part which... Again is GOOD no doubt but is ultimately countered by the current market. Sure you're not starting with inherent debt... But you're still not in a position to generate viable revenue especially if you want to re-hire more of the old staff.)
I think my question still stands. If (when?) the overpriced scondhand bike sales don't work out, what could they do that sounds efficacious?
thats exactly what bike-components.de does with their b2b offering, you can offer your customers next day delivery on all the parts they sell and see in the app how much it would cost the shop and the shop can chose how big of a margin they want to make
As I read the PR, it sounds like they are moving to a different location (smaller?) and going back to their core business of used bikes. I'm thinking between too much growth on the physical assets (building and equipment) and buying overstock from manufacturers, they potentially were spending way more than they were bringing in.. I doubt that they were getting terms to pay off the bikes they were trying to move for the bigger players.. Even if they were, the economy didn't help them..
Ya that warehouse they showed... Just the cost alone would seem astronomical, then top it off with filling it to the brim with stock nobody actually wants. It's no surprise the former owners failed, I just legit don't see quite where the new owners succeed here. Even if they intelligently manage refurnishing, restaffing, and restocking the business. It seems like it's just an outright gamble on the market normalizing and being able to do the exact same thing at a smaller scale. "Bold strategy Cotton, let's see how it pays off for em."
This dovetails nicely into the idea of what can happen when a company overcapitalizes. There are numerous negative side effects to raising too much money and growing infrastructure well past the means of the business is one of them. As a refresher, TPC raised ~$60M (that isn't a typo) from 2019-2024. Two of my favorite finance minds (Bill Gurley is the mentor I wish I had) talk about the idea of company's raising beyond their means on their pod this week. The important part starts around 12:30.
Some of this I touched on briefly in the Pod I did with Spomer, but those really interested in the perverse incentives of "modern venture capital", namely around fees, size of fund and expected outcome, this is an excellent listen. If I'm honest, much of this thinking and risk taking seemed to trickle all the way into the bike industry, which is bonkers.
FWIW if you go to Jenson and add the new 2025 Bronson CC frame to your cart, the check-out price is $600 less than what it is listed at. Silent discounts on new Santa Cruz models already?
I'm guessing they need to move some product and not get in trouble with Santa Cruz for a MAP violation.. A manufacturer can't tell the dealer what they can sell a product for, but they can tell them what they can advertise it at..
If you had to guess... What leads a company at TPCs level to bother raising 60m? The general idea of 'if you could you should' and maybe even 'we can achieve anything with this kind of capital'? I don't see how you don't view that as basically a large high risk loan or something. I would be sprinting away from that money (granted, I am no genius with a marketable idea)... But ya what in gods name did TPC think they were gonna do with all that to turn it around lol
Are you sure it's actually the CC frame? SC was going to be selling the C frames for the Bronson and Hightower due to the backlash over the CC not having cable routing for a derailleur.
Going off the pod, it seems that for a brief moment, the bike industry showed huge growth and sales that many thought would carry on, and with the low interest rates during the pandemic, the bike industry actually looked promising to some investors that would normally not look at us.. And when things changed, they either pulled their money out or just let the company die..
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