Will more companies be shutting down in the next 12-24 months?

metadave
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8/28/2024 12:41pm
I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in...

I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in a muddy creek with no snorkel 

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

Funny, I often look outside bikes at options and do some math at the amount of parts, clothing and bikes I buy in a year, usually at a good discount, plus industry discounts outside of the industry. If I left my current bike job, I'd have to make about 10k more to come out even in some cases. The pay is meh but for similar gigs I haven't found anything that would even things out and it certainly wouldn't have the vibe.

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earleb
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8/28/2024 12:54pm

I’m going to say that in the next 6 months a “big”

But actually small brand files for liquidation. 

Transition?

2
All-MTN-MTB
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Location
Boulder, CO US
8/28/2024 2:41pm
I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in...

I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in a muddy creek with no snorkel 

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had to do that, but it seemed like I was lucky in that regards as most people on the product side of businesses seem to make 3-4 trips there per year. Honestly in my experience, the pay and benefits were about the same as other industries. 

2
3
1llumA
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8/28/2024 3:48pm
I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in...

I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in a muddy creek with no snorkel 

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

metadave wrote:
Funny, I often look outside bikes at options and do some math at the amount of parts, clothing and bikes I buy in a year, usually...

Funny, I often look outside bikes at options and do some math at the amount of parts, clothing and bikes I buy in a year, usually at a good discount, plus industry discounts outside of the industry. If I left my current bike job, I'd have to make about 10k more to come out even in some cases. The pay is meh but for similar gigs I haven't found anything that would even things out and it certainly wouldn't have the vibe.

I also did the math regarding parts/bikes/etc but I was still better off with the new job. Also feels more free to choose parts I really want instead of mostly choosing what my old job would distribute even though the choice was pretty diverse.

In my case, i was actually keen to go to Taiwan but never got to.

6
ARonBurgundy
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Decatur, GA US
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8/28/2024 4:06pm
I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in...

I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in a muddy creek with no snorkel 

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had...

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had to do that, but it seemed like I was lucky in that regards as most people on the product side of businesses seem to make 3-4 trips there per year. Honestly in my experience, the pay and benefits were about the same as other industries. 

Traveling is one of the biggest perks for me. I personally love being in Taiwan and it’s a good jumping off point for exploring more of that side of the world. The actual flying part sucks but being there is awesome. 

11
8/29/2024 12:48pm
1llumA wrote:
I also did the math regarding parts/bikes/etc but I was still better off with the new job. Also feels more free to choose parts I really...

I also did the math regarding parts/bikes/etc but I was still better off with the new job. Also feels more free to choose parts I really want instead of mostly choosing what my old job would distribute even though the choice was pretty diverse.

In my case, i was actually keen to go to Taiwan but never got to.

Yes, I make significantly more money doing software engineering, but man its hard to get passionate about getting up every day and writing software that processes credit cards.

9
Simcik
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8/29/2024 2:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2024 2:33pm
Yes, I make significantly more money doing software engineering, but man its hard to get passionate about getting up every day and writing software that processes...

Yes, I make significantly more money doing software engineering, but man its hard to get passionate about getting up every day and writing software that processes credit cards.

The bike biz is a great business to be in! It is also a job at the end of the day. Not everyday is drinking beers and riding bikes with badass industry folks. Some days are spreadsheets, negotiating pricing like a car deal or spending hours upon hours driving or standing in a tradeshow booth. But when you get those days of riding bikes and hanging with cool people talking bikes, it is more than worth it. 

While in the bike business I've never had a meeting with the Bob's or had to hide my stapler. Pick the right brand to be a part of and it won't be soul crushing

8
8/29/2024 3:27pm

I was actually in talks to do some contract work at Pinkbike on their buy/sell page, but they stopped responding after looking thru my comment history. Then I got permanently banned. 

23
8/29/2024 3:34pm

I’m going to say that in the next 6 months a “big”

But actually small brand files for liquidation. 

earleb wrote:

Transition?

My guess was Evil. They haven't seemed to do much of anything new in a while...unless I just missed it.

Them shutting down would be a bummer. If I'm opening up my considerations for a future short travel trail bike to include the Superboost malarkey then I could potentially be talked into The Following LS. It seems like a really awesome bike.

...but then again when was the last time anyone saw someone riding a Niner?

8
DubC
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8/29/2024 4:25pm
I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in...

I'd love to work in the bike industry, but man lots of those positions have such specialized skillsets that if you get laid off you're in a muddy creek with no snorkel 

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had...

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had to do that, but it seemed like I was lucky in that regards as most people on the product side of businesses seem to make 3-4 trips there per year. Honestly in my experience, the pay and benefits were about the same as other industries. 

Taiwan is awesome and I'd consider going there a perk. The food is amazing, the people are wonderful and the riding is way better than you might think. 

10
All-MTN-MTB
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Location
Boulder, CO US
8/29/2024 6:15pm
As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a...

As @1llumA  noted, unless you spend a long time building a career around something very esoteric, most things transfer pretty well. In fact, I've watched a buddy transition from suspension engineer to aerospace, another go from suspension engineer to medical device and a third go from product manager to running a large customer book at an industrial HVAC company. 

The real bummer about "the bike industry" is it is hard to get paid what you could get paid in some other industry, equalizing for as many variables as possible. 

On the plus side there have been a number of visionary minds that dabbled in bikes at one point or another; DeVinci and the Wright Bros both come to mind Wink  

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had...

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had to do that, but it seemed like I was lucky in that regards as most people on the product side of businesses seem to make 3-4 trips there per year. Honestly in my experience, the pay and benefits were about the same as other industries. 

DubC wrote:
Taiwan is awesome and I'd consider going there a perk. The food is amazing, the people are wonderful and the riding is way better than you...

Taiwan is awesome and I'd consider going there a perk. The food is amazing, the people are wonderful and the riding is way better than you might think. 

The downside for me personally has to do with spending that much time away from my family. My comment wasn’t meant to suggest anything negative about Taiwan itself. 
I place a high value on getting to be at home with my family every night. I have spent the majority of my career in manufacturing and it’s a lesson I learned early on from fellow welders and other manufacturing/construction trades that spent time “getting the bag” on jobs that included a lot of time away. The vast majority of them regretted it and took large pay reductions (30-50%) to get away from that lifestyle. You just can’t replace the memories with family and friends with an earlier retirement and extra toys. 

19
ARonBurgundy
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8/30/2024 5:36am
Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had...

Also traveling to Taiwan multiple time a year does not sound fun. I spent some time in the industry as an engineer and thankfully never had to do that, but it seemed like I was lucky in that regards as most people on the product side of businesses seem to make 3-4 trips there per year. Honestly in my experience, the pay and benefits were about the same as other industries. 

DubC wrote:
Taiwan is awesome and I'd consider going there a perk. The food is amazing, the people are wonderful and the riding is way better than you...

Taiwan is awesome and I'd consider going there a perk. The food is amazing, the people are wonderful and the riding is way better than you might think. 

The downside for me personally has to do with spending that much time away from my family. My comment wasn’t meant to suggest anything negative about...

The downside for me personally has to do with spending that much time away from my family. My comment wasn’t meant to suggest anything negative about Taiwan itself. 
I place a high value on getting to be at home with my family every night. I have spent the majority of my career in manufacturing and it’s a lesson I learned early on from fellow welders and other manufacturing/construction trades that spent time “getting the bag” on jobs that included a lot of time away. The vast majority of them regretted it and took large pay reductions (30-50%) to get away from that lifestyle. You just can’t replace the memories with family and friends with an earlier retirement and extra toys. 

Well said!

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HexonJuan
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8/30/2024 7:03am
Just so we have everything aggregated here (I may or may not be making an Office Space inspired power point - and this is one of...

Just so we have everything aggregated here (I may or may not be making an Office Space inspired power point - and this is one of my "sources")

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2024/08/23/hayes-performa…

Hayes lays off less than 10% of its workforce (small layoff - but still)

sspomer wrote:

10% is "small" company-wide but 50+ people getting the boot is pretty significant. especially if a portion of them are in rural wisconsin.

As a Milwaukeean I can tell you Mequon isn't as rural as you think. Hayes was maybe a 20+min drive from downtown Milwaukee. From what I've heard, a bulk of the cuts were made on the power side of the business. That said, I do wonder about their future. Brakes have been doing well-ish, but Reynolds/Sun/and Manitou goods have been on sale for a long, long time on their site and none of those wares really show up as OE spec aside from the Junit line. Aftermarket has better margins, but OE spec is what really keeps the lights on.

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dolface
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9/16/2024 9:43am

Sounds like Motion Instruments might be done; just got this (I placed an order but have not received it):

We have some unfortunate news to share with you. In 2021, there was a change of control event with Motion Instruments. At the time, this was a game changer for us and gave us the capital needed to accelerate development of a new system built on first principles. The controlling company wanted us to develop a next generation system and continue on as an independent brand. Last Thursday, the Motion Instruments founders, Mike and I, were laid off and the controlling company has no intention of commercializing System2.
 
We are currently working to get a contract negotiated to figure out what's next for MI with the controlling company. Unfortunately, until we secure an agreement, there is no way for us to refund your System2 order or give you support for your existing system.
 
We are very sorry for the situation you are in. It was a real honor and thrill for us to receive your order and hear about the evolution of your setup. In the meantime, the app and system will continue to work as is. So, keep racing and using your product. Mike and I are committed to the brand and business we've built from scratch in our garage. Our customers were our biggest asset, and we'll do everything in our power to make things right.
 
While we are not sure what's next, we will let you know once we figure it out. In the meantime, we are not doing any career moves until we exhaust every option to make our customers whole.
 
Thank you for your belief in us and our product. Hopefully we will execute an agreement for this technology to live on as it's the best system ever developed for 2 wheels. Feel free to use my personal email address to ask questions about your refund. 
 
Rob & Mike
4
AndehM
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9/16/2024 10:14am

That sucks, I was really looking forward to using System 2 and also helping local young racers get their suspension set up using it.

3
DServy
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9/16/2024 10:17am
AndehM wrote:

That sucks, I was really looking forward to using System 2 and also helping local young racers get their suspension set up using it.

Yeah, its a massive bummer since system two seems like it would be the easiest to use. I have a v1 and its okay, but was really looking forward to what v2 brought to the table. 

1
9/16/2024 7:54pm

Seems like a whole lot of bike-related brands/companies are learning hard lessons this year about the promises made during a buyout. 

7
9/17/2024 7:57am
dolface wrote:
Sounds like Motion Instruments might be done; just got this (I placed an order but have not received it):We have some unfortunate news to share with...

Sounds like Motion Instruments might be done; just got this (I placed an order but have not received it):

We have some unfortunate news to share with you. In 2021, there was a change of control event with Motion Instruments. At the time, this was a game changer for us and gave us the capital needed to accelerate development of a new system built on first principles. The controlling company wanted us to develop a next generation system and continue on as an independent brand. Last Thursday, the Motion Instruments founders, Mike and I, were laid off and the controlling company has no intention of commercializing System2.
 
We are currently working to get a contract negotiated to figure out what's next for MI with the controlling company. Unfortunately, until we secure an agreement, there is no way for us to refund your System2 order or give you support for your existing system.
 
We are very sorry for the situation you are in. It was a real honor and thrill for us to receive your order and hear about the evolution of your setup. In the meantime, the app and system will continue to work as is. So, keep racing and using your product. Mike and I are committed to the brand and business we've built from scratch in our garage. Our customers were our biggest asset, and we'll do everything in our power to make things right.
 
While we are not sure what's next, we will let you know once we figure it out. In the meantime, we are not doing any career moves until we exhaust every option to make our customers whole.
 
Thank you for your belief in us and our product. Hopefully we will execute an agreement for this technology to live on as it's the best system ever developed for 2 wheels. Feel free to use my personal email address to ask questions about your refund. 
 
Rob & Mike

This one hurts. The motion instruments system is on the shortlist of things that really elevated by understanding of suspension dynamics and setup. Telemetry may not be applicable to every rider, but at least for me, Motion Instruments made the fancy tech accessible and completely changed my bike setup for the better.   

3
dolface
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9/17/2024 9:28am
dolface wrote:
Sounds like Motion Instruments might be done; just got this (I placed an order but have not received it):We have some unfortunate news to share with...

Sounds like Motion Instruments might be done; just got this (I placed an order but have not received it):

We have some unfortunate news to share with you. In 2021, there was a change of control event with Motion Instruments. At the time, this was a game changer for us and gave us the capital needed to accelerate development of a new system built on first principles. The controlling company wanted us to develop a next generation system and continue on as an independent brand. Last Thursday, the Motion Instruments founders, Mike and I, were laid off and the controlling company has no intention of commercializing System2.
 
We are currently working to get a contract negotiated to figure out what's next for MI with the controlling company. Unfortunately, until we secure an agreement, there is no way for us to refund your System2 order or give you support for your existing system.
 
We are very sorry for the situation you are in. It was a real honor and thrill for us to receive your order and hear about the evolution of your setup. In the meantime, the app and system will continue to work as is. So, keep racing and using your product. Mike and I are committed to the brand and business we've built from scratch in our garage. Our customers were our biggest asset, and we'll do everything in our power to make things right.
 
While we are not sure what's next, we will let you know once we figure it out. In the meantime, we are not doing any career moves until we exhaust every option to make our customers whole.
 
Thank you for your belief in us and our product. Hopefully we will execute an agreement for this technology to live on as it's the best system ever developed for 2 wheels. Feel free to use my personal email address to ask questions about your refund. 
 
Rob & Mike
This one hurts. The motion instruments system is on the shortlist of things that really elevated by understanding of suspension dynamics and setup. Telemetry may not...

This one hurts. The motion instruments system is on the shortlist of things that really elevated by understanding of suspension dynamics and setup. Telemetry may not be applicable to every rider, but at least for me, Motion Instruments made the fancy tech accessible and completely changed my bike setup for the better.   

I'm right there with you, decided I wanted to learn how suspension actually works and have gotten as far as I can reading/watching vidsnand using a ShockWiz and was really looking forward to tsking the next step.

I know BYB also offers data acquisition but it's a much more significant investment; MI seemed like the sweet spot for me (for where I am).

I'm going to sit tight for a bit and keep my fingers crossed that something gets worked out. It seems bonkers to me that they have the product but aren't going to ship it...

3
dolface
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9/17/2024 6:58pm

Just go this (tl;dr they're refunding people).

Still hoping they figure out a way to ship the product at some point!

"Hi Folks,

 
We should be refunding your order tomorrow or Thursday at the latest. 
 
I'm sorry for the stress this order caused. We thank you for your business and trust in us.If you don't see something by end of week, please reach out so we can troubleshoot.. There are a lot of orders to process and it typically takes a couple of business days for the money to show up in your account. It will appear in the exact account you used for the order (credit card, paypal, etc).
 
Thanks,
 
Rob"
4
1
dolface
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9/19/2024 2:36pm

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2024/09/19/bankruptcy-court-approves-giant%E2%80%99s-purchase-stages 

Can't remember if the Stages bankruptcy is already in this thread. If not, court approved Giant's acquisition of the assets out of bankruptcy for $20M. 

 

Curious what that's going to mean for their OEM deals; will Giant stop speccing bikes w/ SRAM since they're now a competitor (seems unlikely?). Curious to hear from the folks who know more about how this stuff works...

1
9/19/2024 3:22pm
dolface wrote:
Curious what that's going to mean for their OEM deals; will Giant stop speccing bikes w/ SRAM since they're now a competitor (seems unlikely?). Curious to...

Curious what that's going to mean for their OEM deals; will Giant stop speccing bikes w/ SRAM since they're now a competitor (seems unlikely?). Curious to hear from the folks who know more about how this stuff works...

Giant has been using power meters branded as their own for a while.. I'm guessing those were Stages. I think they mainly use them on Shimano Road builds..

1
iceman2058
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9/24/2024 3:40am

This post just popped up on Nukeproof's IG, in all likelihood it just means CRC is selling off remaining stock, FWIW (that's where the link in their bio points to):

2
Primoz
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9/24/2024 4:05am

Given the quantites and given the models on sale if you click the 'Nukeproof' category, it does look like an old stock sale...

2
jeff.brines
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9/24/2024 6:22am Edited Date/Time 9/24/2024 6:26am
iceman2058 wrote:
This post just popped up on Nukeproof's IG, in all likelihood it just means CRC is selling off remaining stock, FWIW (that's where the link in...

This post just popped up on Nukeproof's IG, in all likelihood it just means CRC is selling off remaining stock, FWIW (that's where the link in their bio points to):

Good find! Pretty good deal for an incredible components package. That said, I'm seeing a few other brands discount their product to the same levels...and you'll have a frame from a company that isn't defunct. 

One my my ideas going into August was supply was beginning to really meet demand. I may be partially correct, but I am seeing deals out there from a handful of brands that is mind blowing. Digging in further, what I think is happening is brands are a lot more allergic to holding stock longer into the spring. Someone in their finance department has proven out time value of money to the ops/marketing people and they seem more willing to discount the product deeply in the fall and flip it to fight another day. 

The problem with this is when I see bikes with GX Transmission and top tier suspension for around $4K I'm not so willing to (ever) pay what "MSRP" would be for a bike like that. The precedent set, especially when components/frames/complete bikes aren't improving y/y is sort of a wet blanket across the whole market. 

...but at least this year, unlike last, inventories around such deals seem a lot more limited.
 

Another example... 

image 55.png?VersionId=BwXb2djyy612
 ...what is most crazy about YT is they are preselling a lot of these bikes. Like...they aren't even at the wharehouse yet but are discounted almost $2k. While I love this from a cashflow perspective, I can't imagine their margins are remotely healthy. All  can think is they are somehow manufacturing frames for nearly free to make this all work. like..$100/piece lol. I can't figure it out. 

4
jonkranked
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9/24/2024 7:06am
Good find! Pretty good deal for an incredible components package. That said, I'm seeing a few other brands discount their product to the same levels...and you'll...

Good find! Pretty good deal for an incredible components package. That said, I'm seeing a few other brands discount their product to the same levels...and you'll have a frame from a company that isn't defunct. 

One my my ideas going into August was supply was beginning to really meet demand. I may be partially correct, but I am seeing deals out there from a handful of brands that is mind blowing. Digging in further, what I think is happening is brands are a lot more allergic to holding stock longer into the spring. Someone in their finance department has proven out time value of money to the ops/marketing people and they seem more willing to discount the product deeply in the fall and flip it to fight another day. 

The problem with this is when I see bikes with GX Transmission and top tier suspension for around $4K I'm not so willing to (ever) pay what "MSRP" would be for a bike like that. The precedent set, especially when components/frames/complete bikes aren't improving y/y is sort of a wet blanket across the whole market. 

...but at least this year, unlike last, inventories around such deals seem a lot more limited.
 

Another example... 

image 55.png?VersionId=BwXb2djyy612
 ...what is most crazy about YT is they are preselling a lot of these bikes. Like...they aren't even at the wharehouse yet but are discounted almost $2k. While I love this from a cashflow perspective, I can't imagine their margins are remotely healthy. All  can think is they are somehow manufacturing frames for nearly free to make this all work. like..$100/piece lol. I can't figure it out. 

regarding the finances now vs spring - they might want to get the sales on the books for '24 instead of carrying it over another year.

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jeff.brines
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9/24/2024 7:12am
jonkranked wrote:

regarding the finances now vs spring - they might want to get the sales on the books for '24 instead of carrying it over another year.

Sure. That's in part what I'm saying. Its a bit intertwined to this whole thread, but time value of money is basically everything in finance (for better, and for worse). If you are unfamiliar, effectively how time value of money works is it weights near term cashflows more heavily than cashflows further in the future. The rationale is a dollar today is more valuable than a dollar tomorrow. The problem with time value of money (or discounting of cash flows) is it puts so much onus on the short term it sometimes prohibits longer term thinking. 

Now, there may be tax advantages to booking revenue now vs the future depending on the company, but basically everything I do is on a pretax basis so I'm the wrong guy to comment on that side of things Wink

Shameless plug - more on time value money/DCF/NPV here https://jeffbrines.com/2024/01/07/net-present-value-is-ruining-real-est…

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