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IL
Edited Date/Time
6/21/2017 7:16pm
We picked up on this report from an Italian eBike show, presenting the all new Xduro Dwnhll Pro from Haibike, the eBike specialists. It combines some interesting traits: 200mm of suspension travel, a steep seat tube angle and a dropper post, a high pivot point suspension layout incorporating a chain idler, a 63-degree headangle and of course the small detail of a 500W electric pedal assist motor.
Weighing in at 24 kgs (52lbs), the Dwnhll Pro is billed as the ultimate self-shuttling DH bike. Enjoy performance levels not unlike those of the heavy bikes we used to ride not so long ago, then turn it around and point it straight back up the hill and go for another run. Components-wise it looks dialled (Fox 40, Vivid Air, Mavic Deemax, Saint brakes, etc), and the geo has the potential to keep things interesting on any track (the company says it "will tackle World Cup tracks with ease" which may cause some smiles but in reality, we'd imagine it could do pretty well within the limits of reason).
So, would you ride one? Without knowing for sure (or trying one) it's hard to say of course, but let's hear your arguments one way or the other!
If you had an acre or two and built a small moto jump track, you could ride around it without pissing off every one of your neighbors and getting the cops called on you.
Also no you can't ride around your mini moto track on a pedal assist bike that only does 25 km/h and you have to still pedal unless the jumps are mini too.
No.
Anywhere all of this bikes features as a whole package (electric motor, DH geometry, travel, cost) would factor in would be overwhelmingly trumped (sorry) by an actual motor-powered moto or, for argument's sake, an electric moto.
I saw my first ebike at the local lift serviced bike park ridden by an admitted first-time mountain biker. This is who these bikes will appeal to, and I predict utter disaster when electric-powered mountain bikes are ridden too fast on trails by people who do not know what they are doing.
Brings poaching to a whole new level!
That said, I also really don't like acting like a curmudgeon. Just because something's new, doesn't make it bad, change is not the devil, & yes, music made after you turn 30 isn't inherently bad.
As far as e-bikes go, I absolutely see bikes like this as the direction we're headed. While short travel bikes will never die, an awful lot of us moved toward 8" bikes in the early part of this millennium, as that was where the performance sweet spot was. The compromises to make a good ascending bike were extreme, & unless what you loved about MTB was the runner's high, pain endurance aspect that triathletes & other endurance sports guys love, there was a lot of motivation to move towards something that would let you descend at speed(read as fun.) In the first 7-8 years of the 2000s, that was a DH bike, & you just accepted the fact that that meant uphills were relegated to pickup trucks or ski lifts.
But then, suspension started getting A LOT better, & A LOT lighter, while frame companies figured out ways to make bikes confidence-inspiring on the downs, without completely destroying their climbing ability. We started to experiment with designs that let us self-shuttle, or get into trails that didn't have fire road access without having to push a DH bike uphill for hours.
Of course, these designs, even now, in what I consider to be a golden age of bike design, do sacrifice some descending ability to be competent all arounders, & conversely, DH bikes still do sacrifice pedaling ability, though to a far smaller extent. To take Devinci as an example(because they are a quite expedient one.) The Spartan was designed to give better pedaling performance than the Wilson at a tamer WC track, but as great a descender as it is, you didn't see it ridden at other DH tracks.
Now, to bring us back full circle to this e-DH bike: The entire MTB industry's impetus, at least since the later half of the '00s, has been making bikes that allow us to have fun on the descents, while still being able to get ourselves back up to the top of the hill under our own power. Even the pointier end of the spectrum has seen advancements in descending, (I mean look at this bad mofo of a 120mm hardtail with a 65.5 HA http://ridegg.com/pedalhead-deposit)
But if we want to go uphill, at a minimum, we're still looking at having compromise a couple inches of travel & all-out suspension performance. An E-DH can give you the uphill capabilities of an AM bike(which is good enough for most of us) while giving us back the full downhill capabilities of a DH race bike.
That's what a lot of riders have been asking for since AM bikes started showing up. I expect that to translate into sales.
Heck, it's not like mainstream offroad motorcycles come in various geometries for climbing, descending, jumping, etc. The difference between a dual sport, a freestyle moto, & even an adventure bike come down more to appointments & motor than geometry. & they all share more geometry with a DH bike than with an XC whippet. When you take power out of the equation, you always seem to come back to DH geo.
Fast forward a couple months and I actually just rode one for the first time yesterday. I've been traveling, not riding, sick etc lately so definitely not the fit rider I once was. Damn it was fun! I did what would have been a big ride when fit in about 25% less of the time.
I had no idea of what it actually was until I rode it. For those of you who are thinking you will rip and roost uphill at dangerous speeds and then fly down the hill again are just wrong. They are not dirt bikes with a throttle. You just feel a gentle and, at times, somewhat underwhelming helping hand.
If you want to pedal with less effort than normal you will go about as far as you would as if you were fit and on a regular mtb.
If you're willing to hammer (sweat, breathe through your eyeballs etc) you will double or even triple your ride in the same amount of time. You won't work any less. If you're a rider you will just go out and hammer because thats what you know. I did. You are not any faster on the trail that your riding skills already allow. You can just go further and get more in.
You still chug uphill at a reasonable speed and honestly it was 85% as fun going down. Since the motor kicked off at 20mph you end up pushing a 50lb beast downhill if gravity is not working strongly in your favor. You can cruise uphill on a fire road at a handy clip which is where you will make up some time but when the trail gets a bit more tech they are harder and slower to ride due to their added bulk.
There will always be kooks bombing trails, skidding and scaring hikers but an e-bike doesn't suddenly give "weekend wally" magic bike handling skills to tackle a technical trail.
I think they have a great spot in our sport. I'm considering one for my wife since the fitness/ skill gap is so large between us. We could now both enjoy the same ride at our level. I could also take a non-riding buddy out on a real ride to experience all the things that make mtb great. The workout, the solitude, the silence and the fun. Not to mention you can go deeper in and further away from other trail users further reducing impact closer to the trailheads. If you;re going to ride like a douche you will ride anything like a douche. It's your nature not the tool you're on. It does't have a brain.
To say that they are evil and have no place in mtb is just ignorant. They're much closer to a mtb (the Levo is legally a bicycle) and not a dirt bike and I see them as a much better alternative to shuttle runs ( and all the yahoo behavior that comes with them) and certainly dirt bikes which have a much higher negative impact on the environment.
If it it's totally fine for other trail users to ride something that chews up trails ( literally) and offers up to 745 watts of complete assistance then I don't see a problem with a responsibly used 250 watt e-bike. Yes. I'm referring to equestrians. 745 watts = one horsepower
It's a sad part of human nature to be against anything new or different but I would urge any detractors to try it first so that you can at least have an informed opinion.
eBikes rule. I ride one all over town, it's the best. eMTB's aren't quite there yet, but they're fun as hell already.
I've yet to hear an anti-eMTB argument that's based in anything other than insecurity or ignorance.
They don't do more trail damage than a big dude on a regular bike, so that one's a dead end.
The pearl-clutching "OMG people are going to get hurt on them" argument from people like Ahab is weird. Gonna have a long list of products on your boycott list to get down to ebikes (including regular bikes, they're pretty dangerous too, Martha). But yeah, I guess I could let you make that case if you tell me what else you're against.
Not to mention the main pillar of the anti-eBike movement seems to be the slippery slope argument that "they'll get us kicked out of everywhere!"...a claim that's devoid of evidence. Bunch of insecure people inventing enemies, really.
And realize what you're saying when you say, "that's cheating." It's staggeringly arrogant.
Electric mountain bikes? Unless there are extenuating circumstances then suck it up and enjoy the sport you signed up for. Like someone said earlier if you don't want to pedal get a moto, pedalling is fundamentally part of riding a mountain bike, and motors certainly aren't. (Not on the bikes at least) I can see E biking becoming it's own "thing" but it certainly isn't mountain biking.
If saying it's cheating is staggeringly arrogant then that's fine by me, the real arrogance is riding a bike with a motor and telling yourself and others that you are "Mountain biking"
Imagine that you have the possibility to explore a desert in Africa or the alps in Europe, full of huge cliffs and virgin trails... all the area is covered of sand and gravel.
It is possible to hike, it is possible to even ride a trail bike up there... but the downhill part of the experience is so extreme that only full capable DH rigs with 8" travel will be good enough.
Would´t you be happy to ride a DH bike that can go uphill without killing you?
Turn the eletric system on, extend the seat post and ride it to the top... it will still be challenging because of the technical bits but easy enough for your legs and lungs...
I´d love it.
Devil's advocate: Now what happens when the motor runs out of juice or breaks, you going to carry tools to fix an electric motor, or will you pedal that 50lb "bicycle" the 40miles you traveled to get there?
I feel this technology is more suited to a DH rig than a trial bike (but there are a lot of reasons why this is also a good idea) as that is where most of us not living near shuttle-able or lift assist places have issues. I don't see this catching on in DH racing of course, what's the point. This is for weekend warriors that want to have fun and like I said, don't have access to shuttle or lifts. There are lots of places like that and lots of people in that situation.
If I had a decent DH rig with a pedalec motor, I would ride it everywhere. Of course you turn off the motor when hitting the actual trail/dh, the motor is for those completely unpleasant fire road uphill slogs.
A few years back (18 or so, to be exact,) Yamaha introduced the YZ400 4-Stroke motocross bike. Previously MX bikes had all been 2-stroke engines. People jumped on board despite the 4-stroke drawbacks because the power was immense and easy to use. In fact, an argument can be made that the new 450s can make anyone with a modicum of talent into a pretty fast racer. (One of the reasons I'm a little crusty about it myself. I spent years getting fast on a 2-stroke and now mid-level spodes can go as fast as I do.)
I see the electric downhill MTB doing something like the 450 4-stroke. It will bring new riders into the sport and make less-than-qualified riders into instant semi-heroes. You'll probably see a few extra broken necks along the way.
All it does is make you less tired going uphill. If you break your neck going uphill...
If the XC guy is irritated with the guy on his DH pedalec riding alongside him on the uphill, well tough cookies I say.
- WW 2
- building clean diesel engines
- invention of a elektric DH bikes...
I have to apologize, sorry for another totally stupid and useless idea...
I was a fervent hater, until a few guys I know got one and I saw a bunch of pro's using them at local races (specifically the greatest DH racer of all time, last years world DH champ and the junior enduro champ
The not-so-good guy from my club takes his e-bike out on all the rides and he gets to the top of the climbs with us and heads down at the back of the pack as usual. The previously fast guy who barely rides once a month now can talk all the way up the climbs, slot into 2-3rd place for the descents and just about keep up with the racers in front of him.
I think there is a very good argument for using an e-bike for training, just to save time. Today I can do a sneaky morning training on my normal bike by leaving the house, commuting 5-10k out and back and riding 3-4 short descents in 2.5hrs. On an e-bike I could probably push just as hard physically but end up doing 6-8 descents in the same time. So effectively: same time, same physical training, but twice the fun (descents).
To quote a Dirt journalist:
"No, it's not real biking... But it's so much fun!"
Durango Colorado
Los Altos California
San Francisco (radar guns)
It's killing the sport.
WIth a bike you, at least, can pedal if that happens.
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