Why are so many "MTBers" A*holes when new things happen?

Not justifying people being dicks, however I think the issue with E bikes is the name is almost an oxy moron. A bike is something propelled by human movement. An e bike is the similar but with one massive difference, a motor. So to most people they are not the same and should not be referred to as such.

Never thought much of it until I was on a long hour long climb out west when some old guy (Santa looking) passed us all like it was a joke. Then I had an opinion on E bikes.

People think they own the phrase "mountain biking" and no where should the vowel "E" be involved.

This is a very relevant question that I ask myself frequently. I may be impaled with a shark-tooth chainring for saying this: there are only a very select few bikers I relate to and enjoy being around. I feel that most are sorta jerko's. I have been in the industry for 15+ years and have chosen to almost completely remove myself from the bike world to stay sane.

My ideas about why there is so much anti-change:
1) people do not like change. its natural.
2) majority of cyclist are amateur and when they see change they do not understand that it may not effect their world for quite some time, if at all
3) people like to fake it until they are called out (amateurs in particular). they want others to see them as a cool bro. voicing an opinion and sounding relevant or strong is something most people want, right? power? influence? likes?
4) then there are those who are really into cycling. cycling is expensive. these people like the latest and greatest and hence will have to adapt to change by buying yet more crap that is even more expensive than the last batch of crap. i feel like half of these people love change because this is their life. but then there is the other half that moan for about 2minutes (in a very loud fashion) and then give in when they see new shiny things.

lets refer to the classic ideology: the technology adoption bell curve

depeche4 wrote:

Not justifying people being dicks, however I think the issue with E bikes is the name is almost an oxy moron. A bike is something propelled by human movement. An e bike is the similar but with one massive difference, a motor. So to most people they are not the same and should not be referred to as such.

Never thought much of it until I was on a long hour long climb out west when some old guy (Santa looking) passed us all like it was a joke. Then I had an opinion on E bikes.

People think they own the phrase "mountain biking" and no where should the vowel "E" be involved.

Right - so basically because the Santa looking guy passed you on an E-bike, that upset you? What difference does it make if it was a regular person on a regular bike passing you? Do you feel like somehow the Santa-looking guy is "cheating" or "not suffering"?

But yeah - your last sentence describes a lot of the type of people I'm talking about to begin with.

Overheard this from a friend, I do not support or condone his analogy:

There are some, not all, that feel as if MTBing is/was a private club...access to that exclusive club has been money, trails, time and most of all; some fitness and a mindset to dig in to your depths of psych to test your mind and body to get to the top of the mountain. In that last point, there is ego, narcissism, addiction, etc....(again, for some, not all) and with the assist bikes, you have removed the last point I mentioned and the members of the exclusive club are pissed about it.

It's like the days when country clubs did not allow women or black people, similar mentality and maybe this will change, maybe it won't.

A*hole mountain bikers certainly make the sport less enjoyable. And similarly to dirtyberd, I have somewhat distanced myself from the community. There are even times where I have considered selling all my bikes and gear.

That said, I stay for three reasons. First, I love mountain biking. Some of my best and truest friends and memories are thanks to mountain biking. I enjoy the challenges that riding a mountain bike brings, and especially love overcoming those challenges.

Second, I hope that I can be an influence to counter the a*holes. It isn't the easiest for me, because when I feel strongly about something and decide to post a comment about it, I know that I can come across as an a*hole. So sometimes I write a post, edit it countless times, only to delete it because I feel like my message will be overlooked because of the serious tone, or a*hole tone as others will undoubtedly see it.

Third, I've observed that most any group is full of a*holes, no matter what it is, because there are just a bunch of a*holes out there. I fly fish and hunt in addition to mountain biking. There is no shortage of a*holes telling off other fishermen for not fly fishing, for fly fishing, for using foam in dry flies, for using something that isn't a dry fly, and who knows what else. And there is an abundance of hunters who will ridicule others for using a rifle, or a bow, or hunting private land, or high fence, or low fence, or making a bad shot, or field dressing a different way and on and on. They sometimes even work to pass stupid laws that prohibit growth and ethical hunting, i.g: no electronic devises allowed on a bow in Idaho, which means that two new sights that combine holographic technology and a range finder into one unit are illegal to use here. That is despite the fact that they could improve shot accuracy with "in the moment" range data allowing the hunter to make last second adjustments to have an ethical shot.

Sometimes I think the best method to deal with a*holes, for me at least, is to just ignore them. Other times I feel like I need to point things out that they may have overlooked. But in the end, the best strategy that I have is to remember that the one thing that I feel that make mountain biking such an amazing sport, is that there are so many diverse ways to enjoy it. I firmly believe that if you are a person who enjoys being outside, there is a "style, genre, or type" of mountain biking that you will fall in love with.

Stiksandstones wrote:

Overheard this from a friend, I do not support or condone his analogy:

There are some, not all, that feel as if MTBing is/was a private club...access to that exclusive club has been money, trails, time and most of all; some fitness and a mindset to dig in to your depths of psych to test your mind and body to get to the top of the mountain. In that last point, there is ego, narcissism, addiction, etc....(again, for some, not all) and with the assist bikes, you have removed the last point I mentioned and the members of the exclusive club are pissed about it.

It's like the days when country clubs did not allow women or black people, similar mentality and maybe this will change, maybe it won't.

Personally I don't feel like to be a "real mountain biker" I have to "test my mind and body to get to the top of the mountain" - if that's the case, then no one using the uplift at mountain bike parks are "real mountain bikers". For me, the part of mountain biking that I find challenging is using my mind, body, and skills to get back down the mountain. That's the part of mountain biking that I find exciting and it's what keeps me riding a bicycle. It's just sad that there are people in that so-called "private club" that can't accept the fact that I (and other people) enjoy mountain biking how I enjoy it, not how they feel it has to be done.

Stiksandstones wrote:

Overheard this from a friend, I do not support or condone his analogy:

There are some, not all, that feel as if MTBing is/was a private club...access to that exclusive club has been money, trails, time and most of all; some fitness and a mindset to dig in to your depths of psych to test your mind and body to get to the top of the mountain. In that last point, there is ego, narcissism, addiction, etc....(again, for some, not all) and with the assist bikes, you have removed the last point I mentioned and the members of the exclusive club are pissed about it.

It's like the days when country clubs did not allow women or black people, similar mentality and maybe this will change, maybe it won't.

Raine wrote:

Personally I don't feel like to be a "real mountain biker" I have to "test my mind and body to get to the top of the mountain" - if that's the case, then no one using the uplift at mountain bike parks are "real mountain bikers". For me, the part of mountain biking that I find challenging is using my mind, body, and skills to get back down the mountain. That's the part of mountain biking that I find exciting and it's what keeps me riding a bicycle. It's just sad that there are people in that so-called "private club" that can't accept the fact that I (and other people) enjoy mountain biking how I enjoy it, not how they feel it has to be done.

Try hitting crabapple hits, even with a lift to the top-it will test your mind and body to clear them...or even try them. haha.

In the real world, i dont think there are many a--hole mtbers. On the internet, there is a lot.

The bell curve was mentioned above, so ill spin off that. The mtb "club" or "community" is the whole curve, but only the ppl on the outskirts of this curve do all the comments or speak their oppinion in public, and then you get the impression that the "club" might be full of a-holes or at least divided about all these topics. But in the real world, these comments or a-holes does not represent the community. Maybe 5%? At this site it is pretty good, but look over at PB-comment section. When i read through them, i really dont feel like they represent the mtb-"community", after a ride with friends, or even a bike trips(morzine) i dont get that impression at all. I think the majority of our sport are friendly and helpful, and do not voice the same oppinions as on the internet.

I will say this(or borrow this): Anyone who rides a bike, is a friend of mine - Gary Fisher.

I don't think mountain bikers are any different to the general population, however, there is a lot of passion involved in our love of the sport and various/several online outlets for MTB enthusiasts to express themselves. Add to this the expense and constantly evolving nature of the sport, be it technology, land access or events and trail systems and you have a recipe for a lot of strong opinions, some of them reasonable, some not.

A new standard in say hub spacing,shock measurements ,BB size or a knock block always evokes an opinion and perhaps a moan. We hate that kind of change because it causes us extra expense and inconvenience and some of it is done for marginal performance gains but makes the industry more money. Take Boost 148 as an example. I ordered a new hub set online a few weeks ago.. The rear hub arrived marked as a Boost 148 but the shop had mislabeled 142x12 hubs. This kind of money and time wasting incident would not be possible were we all still happily riding on 142mm hubs. I'm not anti-boost but I certainly can't notice an improvement in my bikes performance and when the manufacturer supplies enduro wheels with a 24/28 spoke configuration, its not hard to imagine that these flexy wheels undo any benefits that may have accrued.

Ebikes are the privatest of private clubs. Just try and get those guys to wait around for you at the top of the climbs, not happening lol.

Also the price of admission is a little higher.

If you live long enough you eventually realize assholes are just part of life. Often they’re not even aware they’re being assholes. That includes me. Every sport or passion has its assholes but overall I feel the level of assholism is pretty low in mountain biking. I’d say 10% or less people are actually assholes on the trail while 25% of (male) mountain bikers are assholes online because it gives them a place to vent with little or no repercussions. Can’t go off on the boss, wife or kids but this e-bike thing has my blood boiling and I’m going to burn the world down with this post.

Comparing mountain biking to other sports I’m involved in I think that’s pretty low. For example Motorcycle racing has about 15% assholes with 35% of the parents being assholes. Ice hockey 75% assholes with 105% of the parents being raging psychotic assholes. See there I am being an asshole about hockey.

TPL Racing wrote:

If you live long enough you eventually realize assholes are just part of life. Often they’re not even aware they’re being assholes. That includes me. Every sport or passion has its assholes but overall I feel the level of assholism is pretty low in mountain biking. I’d say 10% or less people are actually assholes on the trail while 25% of (male) mountain bikers are assholes online because it gives them a place to vent with little or no repercussions. Can’t go off on the boss, wife or kids but this e-bike thing has my blood boiling and I’m going to burn the world down with this post.

Comparing mountain biking to other sports I’m involved in I think that’s pretty low. For example Motorcycle racing has about 15% assholes with 35% of the parents being assholes. Ice hockey 75% assholes with 105% of the parents being raging psychotic assholes. See there I am being an asshole about hockey.

LOL 105% That made me laugh!

"...25% of (male) mountain bikers are assholes online because it gives them a place to vent with little or no repercussions"

I get what you're saying, if it is really 25% that's a high number and it's really sad, if you think about it.

Skerby wrote:

Ebikes are the privatest of private clubs. Just try and get those guys to wait around for you at the top of the climbs, not happening lol.

Also the price of admission is a little higher.

I guess that all depends on who you're friends are LOL

If I'm riding eMTB by myself, I go at my own pace. If I'm riding with friends "some eMTB some not" we always make it a point to stay together as a group. If that means I ride slower, then so be it. I'd rather all of us have fun and enjoy the group ride, it makes the day more enjoyable. I'm not "that guy" who, just becuase I have an eMTB I can fly up to the top and leave everyone behind just to stroke my ego.

If you fucking morons would just stay off my trails i wouldnt have to be such an asshole.

Hmmmm. Compared to the motorcycle industry that I come from, the bicycle industry folk seem pretty chill. I like you guys. Just saying.

SB14 wrote:

In the real world, i dont think there are many a--hole mtbers. On the internet, there is a lot.

The bell curve was mentioned above, so ill spin off that. The mtb "club" or "community" is the whole curve, but only the ppl on the outskirts of this curve do all the comments or speak their oppinion in public, and then you get the impression that the "club" might be full of a-holes or at least divided about all these topics. But in the real world, these comments or a-holes does not represent the community. Maybe 5%? At this site it is pretty good, but look over at PB-comment section. When i read through them, i really dont feel like they represent the mtb-"community", after a ride with friends, or even a bike trips(morzine) i dont get that impression at all. I think the majority of our sport are friendly and helpful, and do not voice the same oppinions as on the internet.

I will say this(or borrow this): Anyone who rides a bike, is a friend of mine - Gary Fisher.

Nailed it! It's not MTBers, it's the internet commenters of the world. The only ones bothering to comment most of the times are the ones with really strong opinions. No one else gives enough of a damn to hammer away on the keyboard. Most MTBers area a really good and supportive group of folks out in the real world.

We've even proven this through an experiment of sorts. I've been a long-time leader in advocacy and building trails locally (Seattle/WA). Back in the day when we were doing outreach meeting for either Colonnade or Duthie (blurred together in my mind), we asked people what they want in 1) public meetings 2) forums like mtbr.com and our email chat group 3) broad email survey of 1000+ local MTBers.

There were really strong voices at the meetings and online forums wanting "tech xc" type stuff in the bike parks. Well turns out 100% of those people were squeaky wheels. Very few of the general MTB population wanted that stuff. People were dying for easier flow trails and progressive levels of jumps - stuff we were missing in the existing trail system.

So don't always believe the moaning or opinions you hear online. It could just be a vocal subset, and you need to go deeper to really know what the broader MTB community thinks.

I agree with dirty bird- "People don't like change." I don't think it's just an a-hole mtb'er thing. Likely you and me just pay more attention to mtb related stuff on the net. Whether it be petrol vs electric, music from 'back then' vs today, meat vs veg, 26 vs 29.... people around me too have harsh opinions before ever trying the new or even considering reasons for having more options. But personally I feel like the mtb community has a lot more open minded, friendly people as compared to other groups of people I hang out with.

I do agree that some things like 27.5" vs. 29" is a very opinionated thing that people overreact about. That stuff is really preference; 27.5" is more trick oriented, 29" is more speed oriented. Although, on the topic of E-MTB that's a different story, it's a whole other sport.

They're great in the way that they open the opportunity for more people to ride, but ultimately, it's not MTB. They can't be ridden the same, they aren't capable of handling the same terrain, tricks are nearly impossible.

I wouldn't say their bad, but rather a sport in their own, something different. (similarly to how there's hockey and ball-hockey, they're both hockey, but really not the same sport as actual hockey requires a whole other level of skill; skating)

In all seriousness you are touching on a few different things.

First, the internet is not a fair representation of the mountain biking community as a whole. While I can easily get into some silly debate online that is akin to religion, I rarely see such passion in person. Everyone loves discussing gear, who is going to win the next world cup etc., but conflict surrounding these topics are far more likely online.

Second, we fear change for one reason: It is likely going to cost us money. As my in-industry buddies always remind me "you don't have to buy the new _______". Cycling long ago set a precedent of cross compatibility. With a handful of exceptions, this is pretty damn rare outside the bike industry. I can't go buy a KTM motor and put it in a YZ. I can't go get an Audi all wheel drive and put it into a Ford.

Still, we hate new standards, and a lot of the time, for good reason. When there is next to no performance, price or weight benefit, it has to be asked "why are we doing this"?. BTW, to the dude who suggested knock-block was a standard I very much disagree. It was a band aid that never should have seen the light of day. (see, we're doing it again!).

All that said, as others have alluded to, the question you are asking is the biggest question I've ever seen asked in 20+ years of being around this stuff. E-Bikes represent something entirely different than a new wheel size, longer travel or a meatier tire. Its polarizing, and I'd say for good reason.

I'm not against e-bikes, I'm just against them being lumped in with "mountain bikes" the same way I don't think my snowmobile should be lumped in with ski touring.

So is it an asshole problem or a "I fear losing my trail access" problem? Is it overblown? I don't know the answer to any of those questions but they are likely to stick around for a lot longer...

jeff.brines wrote:

In all seriousness you are touching on a few different things.

First, the internet is not a fair representation of the mountain biking community as a whole. While I can easily get into some silly debate online that is akin to religion, I rarely see such passion in person. Everyone loves discussing gear, who is going to win the next world cup etc., but conflict surrounding these topics are far more likely online.

Second, we fear change for one reason: It is likely going to cost us money. As my in-industry buddies always remind me "you don't have to buy the new _______". Cycling long ago set a precedent of cross compatibility. With a handful of exceptions, this is pretty damn rare outside the bike industry. I can't go buy a KTM motor and put it in a YZ. I can't go get an Audi all wheel drive and put it into a Ford.

Still, we hate new standards, and a lot of the time, for good reason. When there is next to no performance, price or weight benefit, it has to be asked "why are we doing this"?. BTW, to the dude who suggested knock-block was a standard I very much disagree. It was a band aid that never should have seen the light of day. (see, we're doing it again!).

All that said, as others have alluded to, the question you are asking is the biggest question I've ever seen asked in 20+ years of being around this stuff. E-Bikes represent something entirely different than a new wheel size, longer travel or a meatier tire. Its polarizing, and I'd say for good reason.

I'm not against e-bikes, I'm just against them being lumped in with "mountain bikes" the same way I don't think my snowmobile should be lumped in with ski touring.

So is it an asshole problem or a "I fear losing my trail access" problem? Is it overblown? I don't know the answer to any of those questions but they are likely to stick around for a lot longer...

Okay, a couple of things. First of all, as others have already said there's definitely a difference between the (relatively) few whiny voices and the reality of actual people mountain biking. That is exacerbated by the phenomenon of those negative voices sticking out in your memory.

One thing I'd like to focus on is @jeff.brines 's last point. I work in advocacy, and many of us are concerned, not necessarily about the REAL impacts of ebikes on trails, but the PERCEIVED impact.

In the minds of some other trail users, land owners, and land managers an ebike is a slippery slope between mountain bikes and motorcycles, and may make a justification to ban all wheels from trails much easier. We've heard some complaints locally about hacked/hopped up ebikes going significantly faster than 20 mph on our local greenbelt, and it's not much of a stretch to imagine that happening on our trails.

The other concern is a lack of understanding of just what a Class 1 ebike is- at a local public meeting about a recently closed trail I heard 2 individuals from a different user group complaining about the idea of people going at high speeds without pedaling. Obviously those Class 3 throttle controlled ebikes are illegal on all public trails, but it's the conflation in their minds that is dangerous.

Hahaaa so now youre catering to peoples ignorance. Brilliant.

I don't know when all of a sudden voicing opinions about a topic that's your hobby and sport is bad or hating or something extreme and of poor taste. Of course things are polarizing. Some are trying to break the very essence of this sport (it's not HATE, it's MY opinion), industry is always breaking your hard earned bike into a obsolete machine, they're always selling stuff with horrible manufacturing tolerances. Of course you can be upset and be loud. BUT.

They're not suddenly aholes because you don't agree with them, Stop it. Even if they're wrong, even if you're wrong you have the right to voice it, to counter-argue. Who told you hold the truth? Who is wrong or right. Now you do have a choice in to participate or not, but don't come in and judge a practice that has been for the entire mankind - arguing, discussing, talking, making your points across, fighting (sometimes). College is full of it, friends are starting to be like that, "oh here it comes with the discussion on X subject". All of a sudden you can't even bring anything controversial to the table, its like a prison, except you have the right to, as I've said before, participate or not.

Of course there will be discussions, it always has, about every different topic, sport or not on every different place, call it internet, schoolyard, cafe, pub, whatever.

What sometimes you see is people in a desperate need of attention - the famous trolls and people who will do anything and steer any subject to justify their choices and trying to make others who don't buy that crap feel bad because they have a different opinion. Ride it, leave it, but don't do it.

For a tolerant society to survive, the tolerant must be intolerant of intolerance itself.

There's a problem for a tolerant society when people with intolerant opinions, based off of fear and other irrational things, are using them as the basis for a democratic movement, and are willfully ignoring anything that might suggest they could be wrong.

How do you tell such people that they're being out of line, of what's expected of decent people? Calling them an a-hole is a start. Little do they know that they're the swamp that raises idiots that make it to a committee seat, which may make stupid decisions on policy change if left unchecked.

t-stoff wrote:

I don't know when all of a sudden voicing opinions about a topic that's your hobby and sport is bad or hating or something extreme and of poor taste. Of course things are polarizing. Some are trying to break the very essence of this sport (it's not HATE, it's MY opinion), industry is always breaking your hard earned bike into a obsolete machine, they're always selling stuff with horrible manufacturing tolerances. Of course you can be upset and be loud. BUT.

They're not suddenly aholes because you don't agree with them, Stop it. Even if they're wrong, even if you're wrong you have the right to voice it, to counter-argue. Who told you hold the truth? Who is wrong or right. Now you do have a choice in to participate or not, but don't come in and judge a practice that has been for the entire mankind - arguing, discussing, talking, making your points across, fighting (sometimes). College is full of it, friends are starting to be like that, "oh here it comes with the discussion on X subject". All of a sudden you can't even bring anything controversial to the table, its like a prison, except you have the right to, as I've said before, participate or not.

Of course there will be discussions, it always has, about every different topic, sport or not on every different place, call it internet, schoolyard, cafe, pub, whatever.

What sometimes you see is people in a desperate need of attention - the famous trolls and people who will do anything and steer any subject to justify their choices and trying to make others who don't buy that crap feel bad because they have a different opinion. Ride it, leave it, but don't do it.

LOL I don't think you understood what I was saying in the first post.

No one said voicing an opinion was wrong... what I was referring to is a specific "type" of person who goes to the extent of being an A*hole when they are voicing their opinion - obviously with a lot of hate, thus the reason why they are being referred to as A*holes.

You can have all the opinions you want (you just showed it with your post). It was never about just voicing opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting my first post as some blanket statement about everyone, which it isn't and never was to begin with.

"Ever since I've gotten into mountain biking about 7 years ago, I've noticed something that seems to be a constant: the MTB a*hole attitude that manifests every time there's some major shift or change in the sport/hobby."

"MTB a*hole attitude " --> specific much?

you give an innocent example like people voicing about 27.5 vs 26 and.... and of course you steer it to ebikes and how that bores you. The rest is like everything else in life there's always aholes, on the right side, on the wrong side, and in the grey side.

"And yes - I will admit that I started this thread because of the current eMTB situation, since I am an eMTB rider myself (along with a non-E enduro bike and a non-E long travel park bike). But regardless of what the topic actually is, did you notice how many people online turn into A*holes?"

you even admit in the end - this is just you and the ebike thing.
Dude you can't force people to approve your own choices.
Sorry.

t-stoff wrote:

"Ever since I've gotten into mountain biking about 7 years ago, I've noticed something that seems to be a constant: the MTB a*hole attitude that manifests every time there's some major shift or change in the sport/hobby."

"MTB a*hole attitude " --> specific much?

you give an innocent example like people voicing about 27.5 vs 26 and.... and of course you steer it to ebikes and how that bores you. The rest is like everything else in life there's always aholes, on the right side, on the wrong side, and in the grey side.

"And yes - I will admit that I started this thread because of the current eMTB situation, since I am an eMTB rider myself (along with a non-E enduro bike and a non-E long travel park bike). But regardless of what the topic actually is, did you notice how many people online turn into A*holes?"

you even admit in the end - this is just you and the ebike thing.
Dude you can't force people to approve your own choices.
Sorry.

Yes - absolutely specific to the "MTB a*hole attitude". I'm sorry if you read that as me saying "ALL MTB people", because I didn't - and that's not what I meant or implied.

"...did you notice how many people online turn into A*holes?"
Again - I didn't say "did you notice how EVERYONE turn into A*holes?", did I? No.

And also where did I ever say I was trying to force people to approve anything? I'm perfectly happy with my choices, this has nothing to do with my choices - it's always been about the attitudes some people get whenever something new comes out. "Admitting" that I made the post because of the recent eMTB discussions is what it is - and has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone asking for any approval.

But hey - I get it, there are some people (again - not ALL people, lol) that really need everything spelled out for them.

See, so easy.
free therapy!

t-stoff wrote:

See, so easy.
free therapy!

LOL the Internet

As i have been on both sides of the fence I think I can chime in.

Like many MTBers, I like tech, I'm an engineer. I like when progress is made, i still remember my hapiness when we moved to 12 an 20/15mm axles in hubs. Despite this, I still felt that cycling was going in the wrong direction when 29ers came out, there was an element of purity that was lost. But I stayed open minded and tested and bought one of the first gen specialized enduro 29ers. After this I tried to stay open minded, i wasnt bothered by ebikes, got one eventually and love it.

Despite this I get really annoyed when I feel the industry is going in a wrong direction, or pushing something that doesnt resolve any issue, examples:

27.5: not the fastest, not the most fun... why?
Boost: 142 was great, doesnt feel like a needed change
DUB: why another standard?
Electronic suspension lockout: F*** off

I think it is also therapeutic to scream into the void of the internet, and important to remember that mostly we are annoyed with the industry aggresively pushing products we dont want and might not be able to avoid rather than the riders buying the boosted, dubbed, 27.5 ebikes.