Forum Hot Seat - Darren Murphy, Founder of PUSH Industries

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sspomer

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1/23/2018 7:51 AM



You can’t be a mountain bike suspension nerd and not know about PUSH. Darren Murphy started PUSH in the early 2000’s focusing on suspension services and product upgrades that would give the common rider world-class performance. Over the years, PUSH has expanded its Loveland, Colorado, facility and finally created their first shock, the Elevensix in 2015. Since then they've refined the shock and now offer their ACS3 coil conversion kits for FOX and RockShox forks.

Ask Darren your questions below and he'll do his best to answer them throughout the day!

See Other PUSH-related features on Vital
First Look: Elevensix Shock
Convert Your FOX 36 to Coil, PUSH ACS3 Fork Kit
PUSH Launches Trunnion Elevensix & RockShox ACS3 Coil Conversion Fork Kits

If you've ridden the PUSH Elevensix rear shock, rate and review it in our product guide.


www.pushindustries.com

sspomer

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1/23/2018 8:02 AM

What do you think is the most common suspension set-up mistake made by riders?

enduro29

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1/23/2018 8:04 AM

Hey Darren! Can you explain what your testing methods are when for example testing a new tune or during a test session?

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 8:10 AM

"What do you think is the most common suspension set-up mistake made by riders?"

Continuing to soften their suspension when it feels "harsh". It's counter-intuitive, but most times when your suspension feels harsh it's because it's too soft. Riding to low in the travel over bumps puts you in the more progressive part of the fork travel in the front, or more progressive part of the linkage rate in the rear. Stiffening the suspension causing it to ride higher in the stroke will often lead to a softer overall ride.

To better understand, go to your bike and just compress the fork through the first inch or two of travel. You'll get a pretty compliant initial feel. Now, lean into the fork and preload it an inch and a half and try to compress it through to the 3-4 inch travel mark. I know this is a pretty basic way of trying to explain it, and not necessarily indicative of the real world, but hopefully you get the idea.

literally

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1/23/2018 8:10 AM

1. when do you expect (realistically) to start your video series?
2. is there a technical/manufacturing reason the acs3 kit isn't available for the #26aintdead pike?
3. why do you think there is differing descriptions of what exactly hs & ls comp/reb control in regards to high and low shaft speeds vs. beginning and ending stroke? how would you best describe what hs & ls controls or is this something you would cover in the videos?

Ceege007

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1/23/2018 8:15 AM

I'm only getting 145mm of my 160mm of travel unless I drop the air pressure super low. When I run the proper air pressure for my weight, my fork feels good but doesn't get full travel. If I run your coil kit in my fork, will I get full travel?

Jared_Price1977

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1/23/2018 8:20 AM

Hi Darren, I have always wanted to ask why most manufactures refrain from having high and low speed rebound adjusters. After getting sag and spring rate right, I always found rebound is by far the best way to tune feel, stability and ride quality.

Yet manufactures, yourself included always provide only one or the other. But compression always seems to get a broader tuning spectrum on production shocks. Why is that?

k.shiz

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1/23/2018 8:24 AM

With some modern suspension having an overwhelming amount of adjustments for the average joe, do you recommend an order of operations for adjustments? For example- Spring then high speed rebound, low speed rebound, high speed compression, low speed compression.

Do any of these functions get commonly mis-diagnosed by riders like they fuss with high speed compression when what they should be adjusting is spring pressure?

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 8:26 AM

enduro29 wrote:

Hey Darren! Can you explain what your testing methods are when for example testing a new tune or during a test session?

For us, we always start by riding the bike in the stock configuration from the manufacturer. We want to get a feel for what the end users experience is with setting up and what the potential of the stock suspension is. This includes just generally seat-of-the-pants feedback as well as data acquired from our on-board data logging units.

Once we get the stock suspension optimized we'll measure the actual leverage rate of the suspension, and get base line damping information on the shock using one of our suspension dynos. This gives us an insight into quantifying what we felt out on the trail, and how the settings that we came up with on the trail translate into data that we can use.

Now that we've got a feel for the suspension's mechanical characteristic, we'll try to match it up to a similar leverage rate in our database and begin building prototype shocks to field test. At this point we can not only begin to evaluate the suspension's performance by feel, but also compare the data to the information collected from the optimized stock setup. Comparing, the amount of travel used, suspension velocities, g-force at the handlebar an swingarm, etc.

Once we have squeezed out everything we can performance wise, we do a last back to back comparison to confirm the performance gains with just bikes and riders out on the trail. From there engineering will complete all of the dyno testing, build the complete database of spring rates, and organize all of the valving information for our build database.

A.P.

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1/23/2018 8:29 AM

I have a 2013 34 Float (26") adjusted to 150mm travel. I purchased the top PUSH upgrade in 2014: the one where the CTD is replaced by LSC and HSC adjustment (sorry, I don't remember the name of this specific upgrade). I love the feeling of this fork and I'm staying on 26" wheels partly because my bike is still amazing and I'm afraid I'll downgrade no matter what fork I end up with.

When I will finally upgrade to 27.5", would it be technically possible (or advisable) to transfer this PUSH damper into a new 27.5 FOX34?

Thanks!

PUSH Industries

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Location: Loveland, CO USA

1/23/2018 8:33 AM

literally wrote:

1. when do you expect (realistically) to start your video series?
2. is there a technical/manufacturing reason the acs3 kit isn't available for the #26aintdead pike?
3. why do you think there is differing descriptions of what exactly hs & ls comp/reb control in regards to high and low shaft speeds vs. beginning and ending stroke? how would you best describe what hs & ls controls or is this something you would cover in the videos?

1. We've already begun shooting. Hopefully early February you'll see things rolling out.
2. It really comes down to manufacturing capacity and demand. We just haven't had the demand at this point, and making just a few parts for a manufacturer our size is difficult.
3. I think it's because companies are trying to make it easier for consumers to understand if I was to guess. There's just a lot of misinformation regarding damping in general out there on the internet!

badbietz

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1/23/2018 8:42 AM

Hey Darren,

What are your general thoughts on shock tuning devices such as the ShockWiz? Have you guys tested them and is there an opportunity to leverage the data acquisition from a customer to tune their shock or fork on your end?

djjohnrodriguez

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1/23/2018 8:47 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/23/2018 8:48 AM

I've purchased 2 of the ACS3 kits, and have been really stoked with them; thanks for bringing these to market! However, I'd really like one for my 180mm 36 - which frankly is the one most deserving of coil treatment. Is anything in the works?

Allen_Gleckner

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1/23/2018 8:50 AM

badbietz wrote:

Hey Darren,

What are your general thoughts on shock tuning devices such as the ShockWiz? Have you guys tested them and is there an opportunity to leverage the data acquisition from a customer to tune their shock or fork on your end?

Same question here

ballr

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1/23/2018 8:54 AM

Hi Darren. Long time fan, first time corresponding.

1) Why can't I get an eleven-6 in all black (spring, adjusters, mounting hardware, everything)?

2) Do the janky corners on Bobcat Ridge help or hurt your product development?

3) How do you get your hair to look so wavy, yet maintain control? Special kind of conditioner? Asking for a friend.

Cary

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1/23/2018 8:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/23/2018 8:58 AM

Darren,

As your business model is changing, any insight on where things are headed? Specifically:

1) There was mention on MTBR that Push would be offering tuning of cartridges only. i.e. The customer pulls the cartridge and sends just it for modification and tuning. Is this happening?
2) Will Push be moving beyond offering products for just Fox and Rockshox?
3) Will Push be offering damper tuner kits that are user installable? i.e. Piston and shim modifications for Rockshox (as FIT cartridges are much harder for end users to service).
4) The million dollar question. Is the 11-6 getting a less expensive companion?
5) Perhaps you could discuss Push's tuning philosophy versus Avalanche and Vorsprung? There is often more than one solution to an issue. In the case of forks, Push's approach seems to be spring focused, Avalanche damper focused. What are the trade offs of each approach.

PUSH Industries

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Location: Loveland, CO USA

1/23/2018 9:08 AM

Ceege007 wrote:

I'm only getting 145mm of my 160mm of travel unless I drop the air pressure super low. When I run the proper air pressure for my weight, my fork feels good but doesn't get full travel. If I run your coil kit in my fork, will I get full travel?

It seems that most MTB riders base suspension performance by the amount of travel being used. Ride quality should always take priority over the amount of travel used. In fact having a little bit of travel left over for those "Oh S%t" moments is a good thing! While bottoming on occasion is perfectly fine, a really good setup keeps that from happening unless it's a really aggressive impact.

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 9:17 AM

Jared_Price1977 wrote:

Hi Darren, I have always wanted to ask why most manufactures refrain from having high and low speed rebound adjusters. After getting sag and spring rate right, I always found rebound is by far the best way to tune feel, stability and ride quality.

Yet manufactures, yourself included always provide only one or the other. But compression always seems to get a broader tuning spectrum on production shocks. Why is that?

High Speed Rebound damping is directly related to the spring characteristic so once it's optimized you're pretty much done. While Low Speed Rebound controls more of the performance and feel of the suspension. So if you know the spring rate or air pressure that's going to be used you don't have a need for a HSR adjuster. That's the reason we don't have one on ELEVENSIX.

Compression damping is based on a variable....the ever changing terrain. Not just trail to trail, but also weather conditions, if you change tires, cockpit, etc. Because of these variables, it's nice to have more fine tuning control.



PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 10:17 AM

k.shiz wrote:

With some modern suspension having an overwhelming amount of adjustments for the average joe, do you recommend an order of operations for adjustments? For example- Spring then high speed rebound, low speed rebound, high speed compression, low speed compression.

Do any of these functions get commonly mis-diagnosed by riders like they fuss with high speed compression when what they should be adjusting is spring pressure?

Here you go:

1. Spring. Your spring rate controls ride height and bottoming and should be set with your compression set soft and your rebound set fast. While sag is a great starting reference, the overall ride quality should ultimately determine your final air pressure/volume/coil spring rate.

2. Compression. Compression damping controls the suspensions characteristic when it comes to things like brake dive, cornering performance, and pedal induced movements.

3. Rebound. How much rebound control is necessary is determined by how much your fork or shock is compressing so it should be set last. Rebound damping also has the largest effect on rider comfort at the handlebar or feet, so having your spring rate and compression optimized first will allow you to achieve the largest level of comfort and control from your rebound setting.

Following this order should keep you on track and reduce the chances of misdiagnosing your setup.

kboss

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1/23/2018 10:29 AM

Hey Darren,

You may cringe seeing this question based on the MTBR thread, but is there a rough ETA on the Nomad 4 ELEVENSIX?

BTW, having one on my previous Nomad, it's the best performance upgrade I've ever felt on a bike. Cheers!

wardog

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1/23/2018 10:37 AM

PUSH Industries wrote:

"What do you think is the most common suspension set-up mistake made by riders?"

Continuing to soften their suspension when it feels "harsh". It's counter-intuitive, but most times when your suspension feels harsh it's because it's too soft. Riding to low in the travel over bumps puts you in the more progressive part of the fork travel in the front, or more progressive part of the linkage rate in the rear. Stiffening the suspension causing it to ride higher in the stroke will often lead to a softer overall ride.

To better understand, go to your bike and just compress the fork through the first inch or two of travel. You'll get a pretty compliant initial feel. Now, lean into the fork and preload it an inch and a half and try to compress it through to the 3-4 inch travel mark. I know this is a pretty basic way of trying to explain it, and not necessarily indicative of the real world, but hopefully you get the idea.


Is the sag compromised after this affirmation?

PUSH Industries

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Posts: 42

Joined: 6/22/2010

Location: Loveland, CO USA

1/23/2018 10:40 AM

A.P. wrote:

I have a 2013 34 Float (26") adjusted to 150mm travel. I purchased the top PUSH upgrade in 2014: the one where the CTD is replaced by LSC and HSC adjustment (sorry, I don't remember the name of this specific upgrade). I love the feeling of this fork and I'm staying on 26" wheels partly because my bike is still amazing and I'm afraid I'll downgrade no matter what fork I end up with.

When I will finally upgrade to 27.5", would it be technically possible (or advisable) to transfer this PUSH damper into a new 27.5 FOX34?

Thanks!

Stoked you like that product! At the time that was a very cool product!

I don't believe that damper would transfer due to changes in the FOX upper assemblies on the newer forks using a different thread pitch.

PUSH Industries

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Posts: 42

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1/23/2018 10:43 AM

badbietz wrote:

Hey Darren,

What are your general thoughts on shock tuning devices such as the ShockWiz? Have you guys tested them and is there an opportunity to leverage the data acquisition from a customer to tune their shock or fork on your end?

I like the idea of a consumer based DAQ tuning device, but would like one that isn't limited to just air suspension. We don't have a lot of experience with the ShocWiz as we're coil guys.

We've had a look at some alternate systems that have some potential so we'll see.

schuster19

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1/23/2018 10:46 AM

How do you guys at push tune for bottom out control on a more more linear leverage ratio bike such as a Yeti 5.5 or 6 paired with a linear coil without making the ride too harsh from over-damping or going too stiff on spring rates? Also wondering about compression/spring conflicts while maintaining bottom out control for shorter travel bikes such as the Evil calling/ following mb?

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 10:47 AM

djjohnrodriguez wrote:

I've purchased 2 of the ACS3 kits, and have been really stoked with them; thanks for bringing these to market! However, I'd really like one for my 180mm 36 - which frankly is the one most deserving of coil treatment. Is anything in the works?

Awesome....glad to hear you're rocking a couple of our ACS3 kits!

Modern forks have very tight packaging so being able to fit a long enough spring to achieve 180mm of travel while offering enough rates hasn't been possible unfortunately.

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 10:51 AM

ballr wrote:

Hi Darren. Long time fan, first time corresponding.

1) Why can't I get an eleven-6 in all black (spring, adjusters, mounting hardware, everything)?

2) Do the janky corners on Bobcat Ridge help or hurt your product development?

3) How do you get your hair to look so wavy, yet maintain control? Special kind of conditioner? Asking for a friend.

1. Because....well, because.

2. We rock those corners foot out and flat out....so, help is the answer!

3. Your friend likes huh? Here's the secret: https://www.pushindustries.com/collections/suspension-tools/products/push-sos-assembly-grease

PUSH Industries

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Posts: 42

Joined: 6/22/2010

Location: Loveland, CO USA

1/23/2018 11:00 AM

Cary wrote:

Darren,

As your business model is changing, any insight on where things are headed? Specifically:

1) There was mention on MTBR that Push would be offering tuning of cartridges only. i.e. The customer pulls the cartridge and sends just it for modification and tuning. Is this happening?
2) Will Push be moving beyond offering products for just Fox and Rockshox?
3) Will Push be offering damper tuner kits that are user installable? i.e. Piston and shim modifications for Rockshox (as FIT cartridges are much harder for end users to service).
4) The million dollar question. Is the 11-6 getting a less expensive companion?
5) Perhaps you could discuss Push's tuning philosophy versus Avalanche and Vorsprung? There is often more than one solution to an issue. In the case of forks, Push's approach seems to be spring focused, Avalanche damper focused. What are the trade offs of each approach.

1. We have been doing that and have an update to our website coming soon to automate that service request.

2. Certainly possible, although we don't have plans at the moment.

3. Possibly, but no plans at the moment. IF you have the right tools, the FIT dampers are actually quite smooth to work with.

4. No. We would have to make significant changes(compromises) to our product an process to do this. We're very proud and completely committed to of our "Made Here" and "Performance First" values.

5. Not sure on this one as we provide tuning systems that are both damper and spring based. We tune products based on the entire system.

PUSH Industries

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1/23/2018 11:02 AM

kboss wrote:

Hey Darren,

You may cringe seeing this question based on the MTBR thread, but is there a rough ETA on the Nomad 4 ELEVENSIX?

BTW, having one on my previous Nomad, it's the best performance upgrade I've ever felt on a bike. Cheers!

I won't cringe....we're really glad riders are so excited to get their hands on the new shock. I can tell you that it won't be too long now and that it is in the production phase here at PUSH. I would expect to see update "sneak peeks" on our social channels very soon.

PUSH Industries

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Posts: 42

Joined: 6/22/2010

Location: Loveland, CO USA

1/23/2018 11:04 AM

PUSH Industries wrote:

"What do you think is the most common suspension set-up mistake made by riders?"

Continuing to soften their suspension when it feels "harsh". It's counter-intuitive, but most times when your suspension feels harsh it's because it's too soft. Riding to low in the travel over bumps puts you in the more progressive part of the fork travel in the front, or more progressive part of the linkage rate in the rear. Stiffening the suspension causing it to ride higher in the stroke will often lead to a softer overall ride.

To better understand, go to your bike and just compress the fork through the first inch or two of travel. You'll get a pretty compliant initial feel. Now, lean into the fork and preload it an inch and a half and try to compress it through to the 3-4 inch travel mark. I know this is a pretty basic way of trying to explain it, and not necessarily indicative of the real world, but hopefully you get the idea.

wardog wrote:
Is the sag compromised after this affirmation?

It sometimes can be. While sag certainly is useful in establishing a baseline spring setting it too shouldn't be used as a specific guideline. More of a good reference as their is no right or wrong.

freebiker

Vital MTB member freebiker
20811 freebiker https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/20811/avatar/c50_Symphonies_of_Sickness.jpg?1357613360 https://www.vitalmtb.com/community/freebiker,20811/all 01/07/13 12 31

Posts: 12

Joined: 1/7/2013

Location: Hood River, OR USA

1/23/2018 11:10 AM

Will you ever make an air rear shock?