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11/28/2018 10:12 AM

jeff.brines wrote:

I 100% agree with you. At the top, where races are separated by 15 seconds over 45 minutes, doping could absolutely be the difference.

My point was really to say I'd bet money if I started doping in a more endurance specific sport I would climb the ranks a lot faster than a more skill oriented sport....but then again, who knows.

Maybe Vital should pay me to start doping so we can see wink (that was a joke, but did anyone ever read that outside article about the writer that doped? It was amazing...)

Pondering your middle paragraph here.
Your skills only really shine through when you have enough energy to use them.
Back when I used to race bikes a lot of my tactics and line choices later in the course/day were decided on by how much energy I had or thought I would have by that part of the course.

On a side note really surprised by what top enduro racers are shoving into their bodies. They have the time and resources to consult with an M.D. or academic, and to train with allowed nutrition and scientifically proven methods.
Why are they pressing their luck with stuff they find on the internet or from bros in the gym?

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11/28/2018 10:43 AM

Hollywood Gainey wrote:

That's the correct story (catch me if you can?)

As for Icarus, he was actually doing better in the race until he didnt charge his di2 than the previous year as from what I remember.

Edit. His performance went down hill after his bike failed, but that seemed more a mental issue. Doping is one part of a whole scenario in my eyes.

Point there, but still, as far as i could tell, the whole doping thing didn't help him out as much as you (general you) might think it would before the race. Even without the mechanical.

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11/28/2018 12:23 PM

jessemelamed wrote:

I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.

THIS. A lot of folks seem to be comparing doping for road to doping for EWS races, and that's simply not doable. Yes, while doping for the 'up' could leave you fresher and more attentive for the 'down', it depends on the athlete and their entire supplement regimen, training, etc. AND there is always a tradeoff when you take PED-like substances -- too much caffeine, for example, will leave you shaky and wired with a possible twitch, which can mean disaster in a heavy rock garden or high speeds. These substances are no different. As someone who now has to take multiple drugs for a lung issue, there are so many problems and side effects that accompany prescription drug use that the potential for catastrophe just isn't worth trying to dope.

However -- Richie and Jared are no strangers to WADA, nor the way WADA tests; it's always at least two of the top finishers and a few more randoms from the field, depending on the level of racing. As a pro who has constantly had to piss in a cup and pour my own urine from container to container, let me be clear: the import and security that WADA lends to the entire process of drug testing does not leave room for athletes to be unaware. Pros who have been tested know what I'm talking about, from the escorts at the finish line to having someone pat you down and then watch us pee. And getting caught up with WADA is no joke, either, which means as an athlete, I literally scour my supplements of ingredients on the banned list. It's part of the cost of being a pro athlete and keeping your sport honest.

Richie and Jared are on an organized team. They have managers, mechanics and coaches, as well as what I'd assume to be nutritionists or dietitians. Whether it was their personal failure or that of someone else, it's still a failed test that they declined B sample testing on. That's a big deal, especially as WADA enforcement was previously announced. These guys aren't strangers to any of this, but it doesn't make them bad guys. There will be an investigation, I promise you that, and after personally dealing with an 8-month-long WADA investigation into blood I received a few years back, I can tell you that they will be thorough as fuck. What comes out will come out when it comes out, and the speculation really doesn't help anyone, especially if the speculation is coming from a lack of experience or perspective.

Jesse is right -- its up to athletes to keep the sport clean and keep it all above the line in order for there to be a future for it. Look what's happening to road racing and the public opinion of doping as it is: do we really want to see that crap infect MTB?

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11/28/2018 12:51 PM

Primoz wrote:

Which article? I heard about one where a triathlete journo microdosed EPO, took a blood sample and sent it to an anti-doping lap for it to be tested, where the results were negative. The results were much more positive on his VO2max results on the other hand.

As for climbing the ranks, interestingly, Icarus paints a different story about doping for some reason...

Hollywood Gainey wrote:

That's the correct story (catch me if you can?)

As for Icarus, he was actually doing better in the race until he didnt charge his di2 than the previous year as from what I remember.

Edit. His performance went down hill after his bike failed, but that seemed more a mental issue. Doping is one part of a whole scenario in my eyes.

Primoz wrote:

Point there, but still, as far as i could tell, the whole doping thing didn't help him out as much as you (general you) might think it would before the race. Even without the mechanical.

his power grew like 20%, he just had a shit race

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11/28/2018 2:35 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2018 3:35 PM

ambatty wrote:

THIS. A lot of folks seem to be comparing doping for road to doping for EWS races, and that's simply not doable. Yes, while doping for the 'up' could leave you fresher and more attentive for the 'down', it depends on the athlete and their entire supplement regimen, training, etc. AND there is always a tradeoff when you take PED-like substances -- too much caffeine, for example, will leave you shaky and wired with a possible twitch, which can mean disaster in a heavy rock garden or high speeds. These substances are no different. As someone who now has to take multiple drugs for a lung issue, there are so many problems and side effects that accompany prescription drug use that the potential for catastrophe just isn't worth trying to dope.

However -- Richie and Jared are no strangers to WADA, nor the way WADA tests; it's always at least two of the top finishers and a few more randoms from the field, depending on the level of racing. As a pro who has constantly had to piss in a cup and pour my own urine from container to container, let me be clear: the import and security that WADA lends to the entire process of drug testing does not leave room for athletes to be unaware. Pros who have been tested know what I'm talking about, from the escorts at the finish line to having someone pat you down and then watch us pee. And getting caught up with WADA is no joke, either, which means as an athlete, I literally scour my supplements of ingredients on the banned list. It's part of the cost of being a pro athlete and keeping your sport honest.

Richie and Jared are on an organized team. They have managers, mechanics and coaches, as well as what I'd assume to be nutritionists or dietitians. Whether it was their personal failure or that of someone else, it's still a failed test that they declined B sample testing on. That's a big deal, especially as WADA enforcement was previously announced. These guys aren't strangers to any of this, but it doesn't make them bad guys. There will be an investigation, I promise you that, and after personally dealing with an 8-month-long WADA investigation into blood I received a few years back, I can tell you that they will be thorough as fuck. What comes out will come out when it comes out, and the speculation really doesn't help anyone, especially if the speculation is coming from a lack of experience or perspective.

Jesse is right -- its up to athletes to keep the sport clean and keep it all above the line in order for there to be a future for it. Look what's happening to road racing and the public opinion of doping as it is: do we really want to see that crap infect MTB?

Not to sound disrespectful but I disagree with a lot of what you write. You are overlooking many fine details...

1) "Doping for road" (EG, HGH, EPO, Steroid use) would *absolutely* have a positive impact on athlete performance in enduro racing. I really don't see how you could argue otherwise. Have you done an EWS level race? Many are soul crushing. The hardest efforts I've ever put forth on a bike have been in enduro racing. Most of my friends who have also raced for a long time in multiple disciplines concur. Allowing your body to use more oxygen (EPO) or be able to tweak your muscle build (using things like steroids or HGH) would absolutely put those athletes who use at a huge advantage. Massive actually. You'd stay a lot fresher through your day, and the efforts you could put out would remain a lot stronger than if you didn't have the oxygen carrying capability Plus, your training efforts could be more precise, with more "fuel in the tank" persay to work on bike handling, not just feeling schmammered all the time.

Obviously nothing makes up for bike handling in a sport that is balances fitness and skill on bike, but this sort of thing would still be a big positive for you.

2) I've looked far and wide for studies documenting athlete performance while on either higenamine or oxilofrine. They really don't exist (specific to these two drugs) so far as I can tell. Yes, I found beta 2 agonist performance enhancement study results suggesting they don't do much in the way of increase athlete performance - I found three studies actually. All three basically said in high intensity efforts performance was not improved (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657501/) but this again isn't specific to the drug mentioned nor the same delivery mechanism.

Stimulant research is well documented, and too varied. But again, there is nothing on Oxilofrine from a reliable source.

This is when things start to become subjective. Nobody knows how much they help, and as you indicated, everyone might respond differently to these drugs. Clearly Jared and Richie had a positive effect or they wouldn't have taken them. I also don't think they were taken as a placebo or "hey, it can't hurt!" (like sportlegs) variety of supplements, as Jarad noted the performance gain (slightly) in his Pinkbike interview


2) The EWS does not have a very specific testing protocol. As I've pointed out previously, their doping rules mention WADA zero times and does not lay out the process by which they (the EWS) will test. They basically defer to your local cycling federation. The only reason any athlete was tested during this round was it was on French soil, and France being France has their own screening at high level events. As far as I know, no other round was tested last season.

As others have pointed out, any half witted individual can figure out that basically means WADA level testing, but considering its the last bullet point in the back of the rule book, I really don't think its fair we just assume everyone "knew the process". It is not outlined how an athlete submits for a TUE (say for an asthma inhaler containing a beta 2 agonist - which even I've used) or similar.

3) I highly doubt Jared has a nutritionist. He might consult with somebody like this from time to time, but in chatting with him, he's as much a guru about nutrition as anyone. (go listen to the inside line with him) If anything, its his neurosis around this that put him in this mess in the first place. The dude LOVES to be dialed when it comes to this sort of thing. I think we all have some serious rose colored glasses about what top pro level enduro racers get as far as support. I'd wager its a lot less than most think.

4) Again, if you read the story you'll see there is an investigation (has been ongoing since the test came back negative) and there will be a hearing for both riders.

5) I think speculation here is actually a good thing. The EWS needs a kick in the pants with this to legitimize itself on the world stage. I also think we have every right to speculate as to "what these drugs do", and how material they are. I think that matters. I think intent too matters. The more insight we can gain through conversation is a good thing IMO.

Just my $0.02

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11/28/2018 3:54 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2018 3:55 PM

jessemelamed wrote:

I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.

ambatty wrote:

THIS. A lot of folks seem to be comparing doping for road to doping for EWS races, and that's simply not doable. Yes, while doping for the 'up' could leave you fresher and more attentive for the 'down', it depends on the athlete and their entire supplement regimen, training, etc. AND there is always a tradeoff when you take PED-like substances -- too much caffeine, for example, will leave you shaky and wired with a possible twitch, which can mean disaster in a heavy rock garden or high speeds. These substances are no different. As someone who now has to take multiple drugs for a lung issue, there are so many problems and side effects that accompany prescription drug use that the potential for catastrophe just isn't worth trying to dope.

However -- Richie and Jared are no strangers to WADA, nor the way WADA tests; it's always at least two of the top finishers and a few more randoms from the field, depending on the level of racing. As a pro who has constantly had to piss in a cup and pour my own urine from container to container, let me be clear: the import and security that WADA lends to the entire process of drug testing does not leave room for athletes to be unaware. Pros who have been tested know what I'm talking about, from the escorts at the finish line to having someone pat you down and then watch us pee. And getting caught up with WADA is no joke, either, which means as an athlete, I literally scour my supplements of ingredients on the banned list. It's part of the cost of being a pro athlete and keeping your sport honest.

Richie and Jared are on an organized team. They have managers, mechanics and coaches, as well as what I'd assume to be nutritionists or dietitians. Whether it was their personal failure or that of someone else, it's still a failed test that they declined B sample testing on. That's a big deal, especially as WADA enforcement was previously announced. These guys aren't strangers to any of this, but it doesn't make them bad guys. There will be an investigation, I promise you that, and after personally dealing with an 8-month-long WADA investigation into blood I received a few years back, I can tell you that they will be thorough as fuck. What comes out will come out when it comes out, and the speculation really doesn't help anyone, especially if the speculation is coming from a lack of experience or perspective.

Jesse is right -- its up to athletes to keep the sport clean and keep it all above the line in order for there to be a future for it. Look what's happening to road racing and the public opinion of doping as it is: do we really want to see that crap infect MTB?

jeff.brines wrote:

Not to sound disrespectful but I disagree with a lot of what you write. You are overlooking many fine details...

1) "Doping for road" (EG, HGH, EPO, Steroid use) would *absolutely* have a positive impact on athlete performance in enduro racing. I really don't see how you could argue otherwise. Have you done an EWS level race? Many are soul crushing. The hardest efforts I've ever put forth on a bike have been in enduro racing. Most of my friends who have also raced for a long time in multiple disciplines concur. Allowing your body to use more oxygen (EPO) or be able to tweak your muscle build (using things like steroids or HGH) would absolutely put those athletes who use at a huge advantage. Massive actually. You'd stay a lot fresher through your day, and the efforts you could put out would remain a lot stronger than if you didn't have the oxygen carrying capability Plus, your training efforts could be more precise, with more "fuel in the tank" persay to work on bike handling, not just feeling schmammered all the time.

Obviously nothing makes up for bike handling in a sport that is balances fitness and skill on bike, but this sort of thing would still be a big positive for you.

2) I've looked far and wide for studies documenting athlete performance while on either higenamine or oxilofrine. They really don't exist (specific to these two drugs) so far as I can tell. Yes, I found beta 2 agonist performance enhancement study results suggesting they don't do much in the way of increase athlete performance - I found three studies actually. All three basically said in high intensity efforts performance was not improved (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657501/) but this again isn't specific to the drug mentioned nor the same delivery mechanism.

Stimulant research is well documented, and too varied. But again, there is nothing on Oxilofrine from a reliable source.

This is when things start to become subjective. Nobody knows how much they help, and as you indicated, everyone might respond differently to these drugs. Clearly Jared and Richie had a positive effect or they wouldn't have taken them. I also don't think they were taken as a placebo or "hey, it can't hurt!" (like sportlegs) variety of supplements, as Jarad noted the performance gain (slightly) in his Pinkbike interview


2) The EWS does not have a very specific testing protocol. As I've pointed out previously, their doping rules mention WADA zero times and does not lay out the process by which they (the EWS) will test. They basically defer to your local cycling federation. The only reason any athlete was tested during this round was it was on French soil, and France being France has their own screening at high level events. As far as I know, no other round was tested last season.

As others have pointed out, any half witted individual can figure out that basically means WADA level testing, but considering its the last bullet point in the back of the rule book, I really don't think its fair we just assume everyone "knew the process". It is not outlined how an athlete submits for a TUE (say for an asthma inhaler containing a beta 2 agonist - which even I've used) or similar.

3) I highly doubt Jared has a nutritionist. He might consult with somebody like this from time to time, but in chatting with him, he's as much a guru about nutrition as anyone. (go listen to the inside line with him) If anything, its his neurosis around this that put him in this mess in the first place. The dude LOVES to be dialed when it comes to this sort of thing. I think we all have some serious rose colored glasses about what top pro level enduro racers get as far as support. I'd wager its a lot less than most think.

4) Again, if you read the story you'll see there is an investigation (has been ongoing since the test came back negative) and there will be a hearing for both riders.

5) I think speculation here is actually a good thing. The EWS needs a kick in the pants with this to legitimize itself on the world stage. I also think we have every right to speculate as to "what these drugs do", and how material they are. I think that matters. I think intent too matters. The more insight we can gain through conversation is a good thing IMO.

Just my $0.02

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

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11/28/2018 4:17 PM

ambatty wrote:

THIS. A lot of folks seem to be comparing doping for road to doping for EWS races, and that's simply not doable. Yes, while doping for the 'up' could leave you fresher and more attentive for the 'down', it depends on the athlete and their entire supplement regimen, training, etc. AND there is always a tradeoff when you take PED-like substances -- too much caffeine, for example, will leave you shaky and wired with a possible twitch, which can mean disaster in a heavy rock garden or high speeds. These substances are no different. As someone who now has to take multiple drugs for a lung issue, there are so many problems and side effects that accompany prescription drug use that the potential for catastrophe just isn't worth trying to dope.

However -- Richie and Jared are no strangers to WADA, nor the way WADA tests; it's always at least two of the top finishers and a few more randoms from the field, depending on the level of racing. As a pro who has constantly had to piss in a cup and pour my own urine from container to container, let me be clear: the import and security that WADA lends to the entire process of drug testing does not leave room for athletes to be unaware. Pros who have been tested know what I'm talking about, from the escorts at the finish line to having someone pat you down and then watch us pee. And getting caught up with WADA is no joke, either, which means as an athlete, I literally scour my supplements of ingredients on the banned list. It's part of the cost of being a pro athlete and keeping your sport honest.

Richie and Jared are on an organized team. They have managers, mechanics and coaches, as well as what I'd assume to be nutritionists or dietitians. Whether it was their personal failure or that of someone else, it's still a failed test that they declined B sample testing on. That's a big deal, especially as WADA enforcement was previously announced. These guys aren't strangers to any of this, but it doesn't make them bad guys. There will be an investigation, I promise you that, and after personally dealing with an 8-month-long WADA investigation into blood I received a few years back, I can tell you that they will be thorough as fuck. What comes out will come out when it comes out, and the speculation really doesn't help anyone, especially if the speculation is coming from a lack of experience or perspective.

Jesse is right -- its up to athletes to keep the sport clean and keep it all above the line in order for there to be a future for it. Look what's happening to road racing and the public opinion of doping as it is: do we really want to see that crap infect MTB?

jeff.brines wrote:

Not to sound disrespectful but I disagree with a lot of what you write. You are overlooking many fine details...

1) "Doping for road" (EG, HGH, EPO, Steroid use) would *absolutely* have a positive impact on athlete performance in enduro racing. I really don't see how you could argue otherwise. Have you done an EWS level race? Many are soul crushing. The hardest efforts I've ever put forth on a bike have been in enduro racing. Most of my friends who have also raced for a long time in multiple disciplines concur. Allowing your body to use more oxygen (EPO) or be able to tweak your muscle build (using things like steroids or HGH) would absolutely put those athletes who use at a huge advantage. Massive actually. You'd stay a lot fresher through your day, and the efforts you could put out would remain a lot stronger than if you didn't have the oxygen carrying capability Plus, your training efforts could be more precise, with more "fuel in the tank" persay to work on bike handling, not just feeling schmammered all the time.

Obviously nothing makes up for bike handling in a sport that is balances fitness and skill on bike, but this sort of thing would still be a big positive for you.

2) I've looked far and wide for studies documenting athlete performance while on either higenamine or oxilofrine. They really don't exist (specific to these two drugs) so far as I can tell. Yes, I found beta 2 agonist performance enhancement study results suggesting they don't do much in the way of increase athlete performance - I found three studies actually. All three basically said in high intensity efforts performance was not improved (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657501/) but this again isn't specific to the drug mentioned nor the same delivery mechanism.

Stimulant research is well documented, and too varied. But again, there is nothing on Oxilofrine from a reliable source.

This is when things start to become subjective. Nobody knows how much they help, and as you indicated, everyone might respond differently to these drugs. Clearly Jared and Richie had a positive effect or they wouldn't have taken them. I also don't think they were taken as a placebo or "hey, it can't hurt!" (like sportlegs) variety of supplements, as Jarad noted the performance gain (slightly) in his Pinkbike interview


2) The EWS does not have a very specific testing protocol. As I've pointed out previously, their doping rules mention WADA zero times and does not lay out the process by which they (the EWS) will test. They basically defer to your local cycling federation. The only reason any athlete was tested during this round was it was on French soil, and France being France has their own screening at high level events. As far as I know, no other round was tested last season.

As others have pointed out, any half witted individual can figure out that basically means WADA level testing, but considering its the last bullet point in the back of the rule book, I really don't think its fair we just assume everyone "knew the process". It is not outlined how an athlete submits for a TUE (say for an asthma inhaler containing a beta 2 agonist - which even I've used) or similar.

3) I highly doubt Jared has a nutritionist. He might consult with somebody like this from time to time, but in chatting with him, he's as much a guru about nutrition as anyone. (go listen to the inside line with him) If anything, its his neurosis around this that put him in this mess in the first place. The dude LOVES to be dialed when it comes to this sort of thing. I think we all have some serious rose colored glasses about what top pro level enduro racers get as far as support. I'd wager its a lot less than most think.

4) Again, if you read the story you'll see there is an investigation (has been ongoing since the test came back negative) and there will be a hearing for both riders.

5) I think speculation here is actually a good thing. The EWS needs a kick in the pants with this to legitimize itself on the world stage. I also think we have every right to speculate as to "what these drugs do", and how material they are. I think that matters. I think intent too matters. The more insight we can gain through conversation is a good thing IMO.

Just my $0.02

ambatty wrote:

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

He did say, "With all due respect"... ok, not quite, but close enough laughing

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11/28/2018 4:21 PM

ambatty wrote:

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

You two are absolutely comparing dick sizes, and your definitively throwing yours around too.
Your response could have just started with, No offense meant, but.....

I have no experience with doping, or being tested. I do however have a lot of experience with coffee. I will tell you it doesn't take very long at all to know if you have had to much coffee, and more so it doesn't take very long till you know what your body can handle and how to not end up with twitches, or shakes, etc. I know I have to stop drinking it by 2:30pm to get to bed on time as well. I can't scientifically understand how some can drink coffee at 8pm and then be asleep at 9. I do however understand that because of this I am certain caffeine affects people differently as do other stimulants. So..

I guess my point is you both have good (and bad) points. I am enjoying most thoughts on here. Both of yours for sure. I say keep it up, just keep it clean. (pun intended)

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@jason_gainey

11/28/2018 4:29 PM

Hollywood Gainey wrote:

You two are absolutely comparing dick sizes, and your definitively throwing yours around too.
Your response could have just started with, No offense meant, but.....

I have no experience with doping, or being tested. I do however have a lot of experience with coffee. I will tell you it doesn't take very long at all to know if you have had to much coffee, and more so it doesn't take very long till you know what your body can handle and how to not end up with twitches, or shakes, etc. I know I have to stop drinking it by 2:30pm to get to bed on time as well. I can't scientifically understand how some can drink coffee at 8pm and then be asleep at 9. I do however understand that because of this I am certain caffeine affects people differently as do other stimulants. So..

I guess my point is you both have good (and bad) points. I am enjoying most thoughts on here. Both of yours for sure. I say keep it up, just keep it clean. (pun intended)

let me go make some coffee so I can reply to this...

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11/28/2018 5:27 PM

ambatty wrote:

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

Hi Amanda! Do you think the fact that Jared and Richie are not from the EU somehow contributes, directly or indirectly, to the AAF result? I just noticed that the others who were tested are from Europe and also did not get any AAF.

I'm a fan, btw. Hope the rehab goes well! smile

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11/28/2018 8:04 PM

I know someone out there know is having a good laugh about all this
Photo

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11/28/2018 8:18 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/28/2018 8:39 PM

Damn. I'm from Denver, so I've seen both Jared and Richie around JeffCo trails and at EWS races in CO. Super-nice, humble, crazy-talented. I just read the PB interview with Richie. At this point, I'm going to reserve judgement, and hang-on to the "parts per million" explanation that he gave. Whatever the case may be... EWS riders: YOU ALL need to be clean about what you do. If the EWS didn't provide specifics about what you can and can't take, consult experts or find a doc who will scrutinize EVERYTHING you eat or drink so that this fuck-up doesn't happen again. Seriously, don't let enduro become like road racing where we basically assume everyone is cheating.


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11/29/2018 1:49 AM

jeff.brines wrote:

Not to sound disrespectful but I disagree with a lot of what you write. You are overlooking many fine details...

1) "Doping for road" (EG, HGH, EPO, Steroid use) would *absolutely* have a positive impact on athlete performance in enduro racing. I really don't see how you could argue otherwise. Have you done an EWS level race? Many are soul crushing. The hardest efforts I've ever put forth on a bike have been in enduro racing. Most of my friends who have also raced for a long time in multiple disciplines concur. Allowing your body to use more oxygen (EPO) or be able to tweak your muscle build (using things like steroids or HGH) would absolutely put those athletes who use at a huge advantage. Massive actually. You'd stay a lot fresher through your day, and the efforts you could put out would remain a lot stronger than if you didn't have the oxygen carrying capability Plus, your training efforts could be more precise, with more "fuel in the tank" persay to work on bike handling, not just feeling schmammered all the time.

Obviously nothing makes up for bike handling in a sport that is balances fitness and skill on bike, but this sort of thing would still be a big positive for you.

2) I've looked far and wide for studies documenting athlete performance while on either higenamine or oxilofrine. They really don't exist (specific to these two drugs) so far as I can tell. Yes, I found beta 2 agonist performance enhancement study results suggesting they don't do much in the way of increase athlete performance - I found three studies actually. All three basically said in high intensity efforts performance was not improved (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657501/) but this again isn't specific to the drug mentioned nor the same delivery mechanism.

Stimulant research is well documented, and too varied. But again, there is nothing on Oxilofrine from a reliable source.

This is when things start to become subjective. Nobody knows how much they help, and as you indicated, everyone might respond differently to these drugs. Clearly Jared and Richie had a positive effect or they wouldn't have taken them. I also don't think they were taken as a placebo or "hey, it can't hurt!" (like sportlegs) variety of supplements, as Jarad noted the performance gain (slightly) in his Pinkbike interview


2) The EWS does not have a very specific testing protocol. As I've pointed out previously, their doping rules mention WADA zero times and does not lay out the process by which they (the EWS) will test. They basically defer to your local cycling federation. The only reason any athlete was tested during this round was it was on French soil, and France being France has their own screening at high level events. As far as I know, no other round was tested last season.

As others have pointed out, any half witted individual can figure out that basically means WADA level testing, but considering its the last bullet point in the back of the rule book, I really don't think its fair we just assume everyone "knew the process". It is not outlined how an athlete submits for a TUE (say for an asthma inhaler containing a beta 2 agonist - which even I've used) or similar.

3) I highly doubt Jared has a nutritionist. He might consult with somebody like this from time to time, but in chatting with him, he's as much a guru about nutrition as anyone. (go listen to the inside line with him) If anything, its his neurosis around this that put him in this mess in the first place. The dude LOVES to be dialed when it comes to this sort of thing. I think we all have some serious rose colored glasses about what top pro level enduro racers get as far as support. I'd wager its a lot less than most think.

4) Again, if you read the story you'll see there is an investigation (has been ongoing since the test came back negative) and there will be a hearing for both riders.

5) I think speculation here is actually a good thing. The EWS needs a kick in the pants with this to legitimize itself on the world stage. I also think we have every right to speculate as to "what these drugs do", and how material they are. I think that matters. I think intent too matters. The more insight we can gain through conversation is a good thing IMO.

Just my $0.02

ambatty wrote:

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

Verbl Kint wrote:

Hi Amanda! Do you think the fact that Jared and Richie are not from the EU somehow contributes, directly or indirectly, to the AAF result? I just noticed that the others who were tested are from Europe and also did not get any AAF.

I'm a fan, btw. Hope the rehab goes well! smile

why would your nationality have something to do with your result because something you do with your body? ´
Do you have some kind of insecurity so that you are starting with conspiracy theories ?

the only possible "advantage" (or disadvantage if you want to dope) for European racers (depending on country ) is that they get tested a lot more times at national level races , so they are way more controlled .

I race National races in my country and some races have anti doping, if in the US they don't have it's a matter to deal with you federation instead of coming here with conspiracy theories .

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11/29/2018 5:28 AM

tmano2 wrote:

why would your nationality have something to do with your result because something you do with your body? ´
Do you have some kind of insecurity so that you are starting with conspiracy theories ?

the only possible "advantage" (or disadvantage if you want to dope) for European racers (depending on country ) is that they get tested a lot more times at national level races , so they are way more controlled .

I race National races in my country and some races have anti doping, if in the US they don't have it's a matter to deal with you federation instead of coming here with conspiracy theories .

I believe this was in reference to the supplement industry in the EU vs North America/Australia. In NA, supplements are basically unregulated by our government departments of Health/drug and Food. Health Canada straight up says on their website that 'Natural Health Products' are unregulated - i.e. you can put whatever you want in their (and also claim almost anything you want) and it can be sold to market. From what I understand, the EU is more strict and has a more precautionary approach to health and food products in general.
This is not to say that American athletes can/will dope more or that EU athletes are 'cleaner', just that it is probably easier to find questionable/contaminated products in your local supermarket. I went to a 'health food' store last week and was reading some of their questionable labels and benefits and I found pre/pro-biotic and diet/fat burning pills for a cat.I mean, do what you want, but in NA you could seemingly sell someone a pile of sterilized poo if you claimed it cured cancer or caused weight loss.

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11/30/2018 9:53 AM

Good discussion. Let's keep things civilized. And remember that no one is an authority on the subject here, even those with a bachelors degree in science. Those of us with science backgrounds should know that. I work with and have worked for several scientists with PhDs and most have decades of experience in their respective fields. Not one of them goes around saying dont argue with me about this because I'm an expert. There is so much information out there and results may contradict each other. For example, try co-authoring a review paper for publication and you'll know that you have to sift through A LOT of information.

English is not my native language but I hope I have made my point clear.

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11/30/2018 6:22 PM

Graves and Rude were always very strong (muscles) and athletic.

Now is explained.

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12/1/2018 8:34 AM

artista1 wrote:

Graves and Rude were always very strong (muscles) and athletic.

Now is explained.

This failed test has nothing to do with muscle builders. Everyone saying this explains why Richie is so ripped is getting old. Dude is ripped because he lifts all the time.

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12/1/2018 9:42 AM

Bike078 wrote:

Good discussion. Let's keep things civilized. And remember that no one is an authority on the subject here, even those with a bachelors degree in science. Those of us with science backgrounds should know that. I work with and have worked for several scientists with PhDs and most have decades of experience in their respective fields. Not one of them goes around saying dont argue with me about this because I'm an expert. There is so much information out there and results may contradict each other. For example, try co-authoring a review paper for publication and you'll know that you have to sift through A LOT of information.

English is not my native language but I hope I have made my point clear.

This. For the most part, anyone with experience in academia knows that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

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12/2/2018 12:34 PM

i feel like some of this is just pinkbike and the new pages, seeing a oppotunity and trying to create a bit of a media frenzy almost while jared is like lying down and defenceless

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12/2/2018 1:32 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/2/2018 1:55 PM

I have read a lot on here. Graves is not a poor and defenceless person. The results of the tests came out before he was diagnosed. He is paid a six figure salary, way way more than 99% of people on here. He was happy to accept all support money! Would the same be said if the same happened to you!?
This is not a shock to anyone... https://m.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/ENDURO-WORLD-SERIES-POV-Sven-Martin-Lee-Trupore-vs-Austria-Slovenia,35594/sspomer,2 skip to 4.35... or am I reading too much in to it ?
The facts that everyone escapes from is that they are professionals, they know the rules. I don’t accept the bullsh!t accidental poor excuse they are pushing.
You broke the rules, accept the sh!t that follows.

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12/2/2018 4:01 PM

Forked Tongue wrote:

I have read a lot on here. Graves is not a poor and defenceless person. The results of the tests came out before he was diagnosed. He is paid a six figure salary, way way more than 99% of people on here. He was happy to accept all support money! Would the same be said if the same happened to you!?
This is not a shock to anyone... https://m.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/ENDURO-WORLD-SERIES-POV-Sven-Martin-Lee-Trupore-vs-Austria-Slovenia,35594/sspomer,2 skip to 4.35... or am I reading too much in to it ?
The facts that everyone escapes from is that they are professionals, they know the rules. I don’t accept the bullsh!t accidental poor excuse they are pushing.
You broke the rules, accept the sh!t that follows.

You sure act like you have it all figured out. What’s done is done. The governing bodies will enact the rules. The guy is fighting for his life. The other shit means fuck all at the moment. It’s just bikes. You can get all in an uproar when/if they try and race some day in a year or two

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12/2/2018 5:44 PM

artista1 wrote:

Graves and Rude were always very strong (muscles) and athletic.

Now is explained.

rludes025 wrote:

This failed test has nothing to do with muscle builders. Everyone saying this explains why Richie is so ripped is getting old. Dude is ripped because he lifts all the time.

Don't think anyone is questioning why RR is ripped. More like how can he be ripped (carrying a lot of unneccessary mass) and compete and win in multi-day endurance events? Turns out drugs are the answer...

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12/2/2018 10:14 PM

artista1 wrote:

Graves and Rude were always very strong (muscles) and athletic.

Now is explained.

rludes025 wrote:

This failed test has nothing to do with muscle builders. Everyone saying this explains why Richie is so ripped is getting old. Dude is ripped because he lifts all the time.

carll wrote:

Don't think anyone is questioning why RR is ripped. More like how can he be ripped (carrying a lot of unneccessary mass) and compete and win in multi-day endurance events? Turns out drugs are the answer...

Except literally the message I quoted....

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12/3/2018 7:13 AM

rludes025 wrote:

This failed test has nothing to do with muscle builders. Everyone saying this explains why Richie is so ripped is getting old. Dude is ripped because he lifts all the time.

carll wrote:

Don't think anyone is questioning why RR is ripped. More like how can he be ripped (carrying a lot of unneccessary mass) and compete and win in multi-day endurance events? Turns out drugs are the answer...

rludes025 wrote:

Except literally the message I quoted....

I don't think Carll means that the drugs increase muscle mass. I think he means that if someone who is very muscular wants to compete at an endurance based sport where overall strength/increased weight is a potential detrimental factor, one way of overcoming this is to boost endurance performance using drugs.

I.e, the drugs offset the poorer stamina/fitness associated with increased musculature to bring him up to a competitive level while still being ripped.

(Note: I'm not sure I agree with this, just trying to explain it. I don't think you can quantify RR's fitness compared with the rest of the field without actual testing so it's a bit speculative. Probably best to wait until we have all the information before anyone can make an informed decision one way or another)

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12/6/2018 4:29 AM

An interesting interview on the Big Bike magazine's website (in French), of Dr. Jean Pierre de Mondenard (a doping specialist) Jerome Clementz, Cedric Carrez (team manager) and Fred Glo (Member of EWS office):
https://www.bigbike-magazine.com/actu-olargues-fred-glo-cedric-carrez-jerome-clementz-jean-pierre-mondenard-expriment-les-tests-afld?fbclid=IwAR2i2wZlEXYcr4aIgKpbO7uXDeJ-q_lyAEhZ1CUOh_Zv4gFMd9IVFuJwOjE

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12/6/2018 8:56 AM

Not a favorable interview toward Rude or Graves. Ouch.

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12/6/2018 8:44 PM
Edited Date/Time: 12/6/2018 8:46 PM

This quote from the BigBike interview, is what most have been practicing since i've been around in racing (the dark ages)....

BB: Is it possible to ingest these products inadvertently?
JP from M: When you are a top athlete, it is entirely your responsibility to know what you are ingesting. There are prohibited substances and with them related substances. It's been like this since the beginning of the anti-doping fight and nobody is supposed to ignore it. The card of accidental ingestion is a defense that does not hold up very well ...

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1/8/2019 11:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/8/2019 11:40 AM

ambatty wrote:

I was speaking specifically to these individuals, not EWS as a whole. Jared has dealt with WADA before, as has Richie. They know the protocol and they understand the process. I think you're trying to prove a point here at the detriment to the conversation while ignoring people who have ACTUAL experience with this, so I'm not going to compare dick sizes with you.

As far as the chemical makeup and physiological responses, please don't: I literally have a background in fitness and a degree in exercise science, so thanks for the quick lesson on drug effects and responses, but... No. I actually DO race at a high level, played college sports and have an intimate understanding of endurance vs sprint efforts, fast and slow twitch fibers and the VO2 max required with different efforts and the effects of various drugs, which I cited as example in my first comment about caffeine consumption.

As to the investigation, I was simply offering up perspective as someone who's dealt with one. About the nutritionist, I gave an example of expertise -- whether it was Jared or a nutritionist, they both know the rules and outlines of what's allowed and what's going in his body. The end.

There are so many speculative and secondary-experience bullet points in your response that are, quite frankly, so fairly worthless in contrast that it's not worth more of my time to even address. But the point of a conversation is to gain as much information as possible and I was simply contributing my view -- it wasn't a challenge. Your entire approach to anyone who might have additional insight to this issue has been hilariously suffocating and as such, I'm just going to bow out now. Classic.

Verbl Kint wrote:

Hi Amanda! Do you think the fact that Jared and Richie are not from the EU somehow contributes, directly or indirectly, to the AAF result? I just noticed that the others who were tested are from Europe and also did not get any AAF.

I'm a fan, btw. Hope the rehab goes well! smile

tmano2 wrote:

why would your nationality have something to do with your result because something you do with your body? ´
Do you have some kind of insecurity so that you are starting with conspiracy theories ?

the only possible "advantage" (or disadvantage if you want to dope) for European racers (depending on country ) is that they get tested a lot more times at national level races , so they are way more controlled .

I race National races in my country and some races have anti doping, if in the US they don't have it's a matter to deal with you federation instead of coming here with conspiracy theories .

Where are you from? Just wondering.

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2/7/2019 1:57 PM

Anybody hear anything more about court date? Couldn’t dig anything up.

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2/7/2019 1:59 PM

watchcwgo wrote:

Anybody hear anything more about court date? Couldn’t dig anything up.

Shhhh, it's almost forgotten wink

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@jason_gainey