Discussion: Sped up and manipulated MTB footage

It’s extremely common at the moment. I think one thing a lot of people do especially on GoPro footage is slow down the shutter speed to blur the outside edges of the trail. One thing people don’t realize is how much of a difference shooting at 24fps vs 60 or 120fps makes. I do see people speeding up third person footage as well but it’s a little more rare. I think that most people’s riding and footage are so similar nowadays that people are desperate to stand out. It’s honestly become a very interesting dynamic as a rider in the past 18months. Brands are putting such a huge emphasis on views and like without knowing how it correlates to sales. They just feel like more is better even though one of the oldest sayings in the book is “quality over quantity”. It will normalize over time. Things are just really weird right now and budgets are spread so thin with all these #ambassadors everywhere so riders are doing anything to stand out. When was the last time you saw someone post a race result or video edit without tagging sponsors of some sort haha.

link to the clips you think are sped up! i want to see. can't discuss if we don't know which footage.

fwiw, speeding up footage by say 10%, to try to get away with it, yields a gross, ugly, frame-jumping product. re-posts are often degraded original vids which may look faked/sped up. speeding up footage 25% or more (to keep it relatively frame-jump-free) is way too obvious that it's sped up (the dylan forbes thing?). without your examples, i can't comment on specific clips but i do know there can be issues when camera frame rate doesn't match editing timeline frame rate and you get dropped frames which can feel like sped up footage. i also know seeing what professional riders do in real life often leaves me in disbelief (gaps, lines, turn speeds etc). if i hadn't seen it in person, i might not believe it could happen.

i can see speeding up POV footage to get likes on instagram, but there's no way doing this will actually make a rider any kind of significant money or gain them new sponsorship. if you notice that a clip is fake, the people in charge of sponsorship (or even paychecks) know it too. they're not just handing out checks for insta likes.

if riders are actually making money strictly for instagram work, it's probably peanuts or product. the athletes making a living are diverse and fairly proven (via youtube, editorial, race results, in-person events etc) and not pigeon-holed to sensational instagram clips. if anything these days, it seems like the most successful social celebs (youtube) are barely semi-pro-level riders. they're enthusiasts or former racers that ride a lot, have heart, have charisma (like you mentioned) and figured out some kind of hook to get people to watch their stuff, cracking the youtube mystery box. they're not doing well because they're the fastest on the internet.

edit: yeah, speeding up is DEFINITELY lame and should be considered digital sandbagging.

sspomer wrote:

link to the clips you think are sped up! i want to see. can't discuss if we don't know which footage.

fwiw, speeding up footage by say 10%, to try to get away with it, yields a gross, ugly, frame-jumping product. re-posts are often degraded original vids which may look faked/sped up. speeding up footage 25% or more (to keep it relatively frame-jump-free) is way too obvious that it's sped up (the dylan forbes thing?). without your examples, i can't comment on specific clips but i do know there can be issues when camera frame rate doesn't match editing timeline frame rate and you get dropped frames which can feel like sped up footage. i also know seeing what professional riders do in real life often leaves me in disbelief (gaps, lines, turn speeds etc). if i hadn't seen it in person, i might not believe it could happen.

i can see speeding up POV footage to get likes on instagram, but there's no way doing this will actually make a rider any kind of significant money or gain them new sponsorship. if you notice that a clip is fake, the people in charge of sponsorship (or even paychecks) know it too. they're not just handing out checks for insta likes.

if riders are actually making money strictly for instagram work, it's probably peanuts or product. the athletes making a living are diverse and fairly proven (via youtube, editorial, race results, in-person events etc) and not pigeon-holed to sensational instagram clips. if anything these days, it seems like the most successful social celebs (youtube) are barely semi-pro-level riders. they're enthusiasts or former racers that ride a lot, have heart, have charisma (like you mentioned) and figured out some kind of hook to get people to watch their stuff, cracking the youtube mystery box. they're not doing well because they're the fastest on the internet.

edit: yeah, speeding up is DEFINITELY lame and should be considered digital sandbagging.

Obviously speeding up footage is lame as shit, and is someone giving in 100% to ego.
Regarding your comment about camera frame rate and editing timeline, I do feel like I’ve seen a lot of edits done over the years by less professional riders/editors who may just not have as much experience as others, and their edits may appear sped up unintentionally.

Well, intentionally speeding up is definitively lame.

I remember being a teenager (before instagram even existed) and being impressed by a semi-pro european movie (Virtuous from Ionate). And my older brother-in-law who worked in tv production told me some of the parts where sped-up, like 10-20% maybe. To me it wasn't that obvious at first, but he told me to look at the "physics" of the dust/trail debris which reacted in a very unnatural way. I remember it felt like quite a treason.
It's like some ski/snow movies where the image is extended a bit on top and at the bottom to give the impression of steeper slope. Apparently it was a common practice at some point.
Anyway, as you said there's no shortage of awesome raw(ish) talent so that sped up videos should burn in hell

But on the other side, it is not always some evil purpose. Recently a friend was editing a video and a couple parts looked quite sped-up to me, like his body was moving to fast (I looked a bit "weightless"), but he didn't. Instead he shot those rushes at 60fps and was editing the video at 30.
An other thing to account for, especially with POV footage are all the technical aspect. Stabilisation, angle, resolution, frame rate and so on can give quite a speed impression without any need to speed the video...

superview
24-30fps
ND8 filter on the gopro

Then in post, sped up approx 3-5% for inperceivable differences to human eyes/ears, ramp it down the same amount when in the air.

Trick is to listen to the freehub sound

There are 2 "influencers" who definitely do the above, one who has gone too far and it's almost comedic now watching his stuff. I'll let you figure out who that is.

Links or it didn't happen. ;-)

Have we all such short memory?

https://www.instagram.com/speed.police/

hamncheez2003 wrote:

Have we all such short memory?

https://www.instagram.com/speed.police/

the original post says "follow speed police" in the first sentence.

brash wrote:

superview
24-30fps
ND8 filter on the gopro

Then in post, sped up approx 3-5% for inperceivable differences to human eyes/ears, ramp it down the same amount when in the air.

Trick is to listen to the freehub sound

There are 2 "influencers" who definitely do the above, one who has gone too far and it's almost comedic now watching his stuff. I'll let you figure out who that is.

just call 'em out. who are they?

hamncheez2003 wrote:

Have we all such short memory?

https://www.instagram.com/speed.police/

sspomer wrote:

the original post says "follow speed police" in the first sentence.

Sorry, didn't quote the post correctly, it was in response to the people asking for links. The "short memory" was a reference to the opening/original post.

I want to see actual videos. No "you figure it out" games, I mean seriously - people spend all day on the Internet whining about stuff... but when it domes down to the actual why are people so afraid to link who they're calling out? Like... what's the original video person going to do to you anyways?

To look fast, one has to be fast. Or is it to be fast, one has to look fast. hmmm.

I'll post a suspicious video if nobody else will.
@sspomer, don't know if there's a way to embed.

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(i embedded for you -spomer)

wow

Raine wrote:

I want to see actual videos. No "you figure it out" games, I mean seriously - people spend all day on the Internet whining about stuff... but when it domes down to the actual why are people so afraid to link who they're calling out? Like... what's the original video person going to do to you anyways?

Mark mathews and vinny t. Also sus on jkw

Sorry If it was cryptic. At work.

for those asking for examples-JKW video above is a good example

this one I'm fairly certain has the stuff @brash is talking about
[img]https://www.instagram.com/p/BsBOuUyIXNs/ [/img]

this one i'm less sure about-it's cut so fast that its harder to tell but some of the corners/bike flicks just look sped up to me
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bvrfd1Sl3yl/

sorry for no embed

AceHouston wrote:

I'll post a suspicious video if nobody else will.
@sspomer, don't know if there's a way to embed.

">

(i embedded for you -spomer)

is there any specific place you think it's sped up? there are plenty of weird, jerky movements (gopro7 stabilizing glitching out?). i'm really not sure about this one though. when he follows a rider, those riders don't look sped up at all but then, if you watch his bike in the clips where he is following someone, he and the bike moves around A LOT. just jkw and his bike look super dynamic compared to the person out front. i wonder if it's just his style on the bike that makes it seem extra fast?

i really have no idea either way. jkw is a NASTY rider. to speed up 10-15% seems like a bonehead move for no real benefit.

i kinda think same w/ vinny t's clip. he's hauling ass on smooth, steep, tree-lined terrain. it looks like speeder-bike action with his camera angle/set-up just right. his bike movements are bonkers but the actual terrain isn't going by at an unreasonable pace for someone of his skill.

maybe i'm too naive and trusting, but both JKW or vinny t have proven they shred w/o POV and i can't imagine they're adding or keeping followers by speeding something up 10%. they're experienced and know what trails look best on camera, so they choose them.

thoughts?

AceHouston wrote:

I'll post a suspicious video if nobody else will.
@sspomer, don't know if there's a way to embed.

">

(i embedded for you -spomer)

sspomer wrote:

is there any specific place you think it's sped up? there are plenty of weird, jerky movements (gopro7 stabilizing glitching out?). i'm really not sure about this one though. when he follows a rider, those riders don't look sped up at all but then, if you watch his bike in the clips where he is following someone, he and the bike moves around A LOT. just jkw and his bike look super dynamic compared to the person out front. i wonder if it's just his style on the bike that makes it seem extra fast?

i really have no idea either way. jkw is a NASTY rider. to speed up 10-15% seems like a bonehead move for no real benefit.

i kinda think same w/ vinny t's clip. he's hauling ass on smooth, steep, tree-lined terrain. it looks like speeder-bike action with his camera angle/set-up just right. his bike movements are bonkers but the actual terrain isn't going by at an unreasonable pace for someone of his skill.

maybe i'm too naive and trusting, but both JKW or vinny t have proven they shred w/o POV and i can't imagine they're adding or keeping followers by speeding something up 10%. they're experienced and know what trails look best on camera, so they choose them.

thoughts?

I agree with you that jkw gets after it for sure, especially in the more recent stuff. It's very possible it's go pro stabilization mixed with a gimbal or something else contributing to why it just feels off. From about 2:20 to 2:40 and 3:20 to 3:30 stand out to me as odd. Hopefully it's just go pro and we can all rest easy.

Nothing is more sped up than 'Slice of British Pie' and 'Slice of shite 2' or whatever it is called.

If you have to speed it up then the footage is shit! Fact!

Funny thread.

Go through some of Vital's RAW videos and you'll see a recurring comment to the tone of "why do you guys speed this up? Its so LAME". Lol. RAW isn't sped up, and 99% of the videos people are questioning, too, aren't sped up.


A few riders might have sped things up at some point, but the big point the original poster is missing is nobody is going to reward this beyond the dopamine infested "like train" of Instagram. That's the only payoff. No company is going to go "wow, look how fast this no-name rider looks, better give him a contract and a bunch of free bikes".

Thankfully bike riding has remained a race-centric or competition-centric sport. You actually have to be good to have a paycheck. There are a handful of gnarstagram influencers getting something out of the pie, but its few and far between.

In the end, this is a zero-burger to me.

AceHouston wrote:

I'll post a suspicious video if nobody else will.
@sspomer, don't know if there's a way to embed.

">

(i embedded for you -spomer)

sspomer wrote:

is there any specific place you think it's sped up? there are plenty of weird, jerky movements (gopro7 stabilizing glitching out?). i'm really not sure about this one though. when he follows a rider, those riders don't look sped up at all but then, if you watch his bike in the clips where he is following someone, he and the bike moves around A LOT. just jkw and his bike look super dynamic compared to the person out front. i wonder if it's just his style on the bike that makes it seem extra fast?

i really have no idea either way. jkw is a NASTY rider. to speed up 10-15% seems like a bonehead move for no real benefit.

i kinda think same w/ vinny t's clip. he's hauling ass on smooth, steep, tree-lined terrain. it looks like speeder-bike action with his camera angle/set-up just right. his bike movements are bonkers but the actual terrain isn't going by at an unreasonable pace for someone of his skill.

maybe i'm too naive and trusting, but both JKW or vinny t have proven they shred w/o POV and i can't imagine they're adding or keeping followers by speeding something up 10%. they're experienced and know what trails look best on camera, so they choose them.

thoughts?

AceHouston wrote:

I agree with you that jkw gets after it for sure, especially in the more recent stuff. It's very possible it's go pro stabilization mixed with a gimbal or something else contributing to why it just feels off. From about 2:20 to 2:40 and 3:20 to 3:30 stand out to me as odd. Hopefully it's just go pro and we can all rest easy.

Go to 4:02 as well. Watch the rider in front especially. Gravity seems a little faster than normal... being familiar with this trail I have to say this footage is fishy. The whole flow trail section is pretty smooth but the footage is jerky.

I feel like this subject is the instagram equivalent of PEDs.

RichardSherman wrote:

Go to 4:02 as well. Watch the rider in front especially. Gravity seems a little faster than normal... being familiar with this trail I have to say this footage is fishy. The whole flow trail section is pretty smooth but the footage is jerky.

I feel like this subject is the instagram equivalent of PEDs.

As a heavy GoPro user I will agree that looks sped up. GoPros can do funny things, but I've never seen them distort how fast someone falls from the air.

Could be a glitch somewhere else. I have no idea. But yeah, something doesn't appear right at 4:02 on.

EDIT: Just watched it again, looked more normal on second take. Semi unrelated, I'm mad for even taking time to "investigate" this. Lol

Spomer and Jeff, you sound *exactly* like Lance apologists circa 2007. Which is funny, because Jeff has already admitted to being a Lance apologist circa 2007.

"Why would Lance risk it all by doping? He wouldn't. He's an incredible rider in the first place so he doesn't need to dope, plus he's such a down-to-earth likable guy. I trust him."

People are competitive and weird, and they don't all share your values. When people can cheat, a lot of people will cheat. Not all people, but a lot of people.

BUT NO ONE WOULD CHEAT IN MOUNTAIN BIKING, WE'RE ALL JUST BROS, BRO

6:00-6:30.

And re: what spomer said about pros just being that much better. I think this is a great point, and I've never really seen a pro ride at full pace. That being said, I think that if/when a video is sped up, you tell through undulations in the trail and corners where gravity just 'looks faster', and not the all out speed of the rider.

Regardless, this thread was not made to 'call out' specific people, though I see the need for linked footage to discuss. It was made to see if sped up footage was even on other people's radar and their thoughts on it. Here on the internet we can't prove that anything is sped up, it's all just conjecture to a certain degree so a 'call out' thread would be useless.

I think, as Jeff.brines said, the vast majority of videos are not sped up, but as team robot said there are bad apples in every bunch. To me, this thread is about both how the media is consumed and how it's made. Hopefully this thread gets people thinking about evaluating the things they're shown on instafacetube for their validity/reality, and cements to any filmer reading this that speeding up footage is wack as fuck.

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Spomer and Jeff, you sound *exactly* like Lance apologists circa 2007. Which is funny, because Jeff has already admitted to being a Lance apologist circa 2007.

"Why would Lance risk it all by doping? He wouldn't. He's an incredible rider in the first place so he doesn't need to dope, plus he's such a down-to-earth likable guy. I trust him."

People are competitive and weird, and they don't all share your values. When people can cheat, a lot of people will cheat. Not all people, but a lot of people.

BUT NO ONE WOULD CHEAT IN MOUNTAIN BIKING, WE'RE ALL JUST BROS, BRO

i totally said no mountain biker would ever cheat ever at anything.

i said why would vinny t or jkw speed up stuff? they don't need to because they've proven themselves otherwise. sure, it doesn't rule out that they could speed stuff up, but they're not trying to build a career off of only sped up POV footage. i haven't looked at the other examples.

View this post on Instagram

🚁 clip from last year in Madeira on the #deathgripmovie line. Thanks @brendog1 for letting me ride this awesome line and @freeridemadeira for the work on the jumps. 🎮 @beni____g

A post shared by Vincent Tupin (@vinny_t_) on May 14, 2019 at 11:03am PDT

or

View this post on Instagram

Who had a good weekend?! After a ton of responsibilities I finally got a chance to ride- got four days of riding squeezed in, how refreshing!!! Even though it’s a Tuesday, the day after a long holiday weekend always feels like a Monday, so here’s a #manualmonday clip! Thanks to @colbias_funke for filmin.

A post shared by jeffkendallweed (@jeffkendallweed) on May 28, 2019 at 8:31am PDT

people are weird.

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Spomer and Jeff, you sound *exactly* like Lance apologists circa 2007. Which is funny, because Jeff has already admitted to being a Lance apologist circa 2007.

"Why would Lance risk it all by doping? He wouldn't. He's an incredible rider in the first place so he doesn't need to dope, plus he's such a down-to-earth likable guy. I trust him."

People are competitive and weird, and they don't all share your values. When people can cheat, a lot of people will cheat. Not all people, but a lot of people.

BUT NO ONE WOULD CHEAT IN MOUNTAIN BIKING, WE'RE ALL JUST BROS, BRO

Sigh.

What you are really honing in on is something bigger, which is "how much do you trust what you hear or see". I was a lot less wise in 2007 than I am in 2019, at least I hope so. That's part of getting older. I wasn't saying people don't cheat. I was saying "who cares, nobody is going to reward this like the original poster was suggesting".

As far as you calling-me-out for being a "Lance apologist"....

Are you suggesting everything that is called out as cheating must be true? That we must disarm ourselves of any analytical capability merely because the defensive rhetoric kind-of-sort-of reminds you of what it was like to defend something when you were wrong over 12 years ago? Seems like poor logic to me.

This is nothing like the Lance situation. Lance was making real money from cheating. He is also cheating in a world where cheating is directly tied to making money. Yup, I was wrong. Yup, I took the bait, like millions of others did too. Oh well, I learned something, but that "something" isn't "everyone cheats all the time". The something was "sometimes you are right, sometimes you are wrong'

So maybe I'm wrong here, but I have a lot more reason to think I'm not, as a guy who uses GoPros to film trails and often gets done with a ride, reviews the footage and goes "holy crap, it looks like I'm going a lot faster than I am".

...I've also posted a few "viral" videos that some could aruge were sped up (yes, Tucker is that fast). Guess how many sponsors have knocked down my door after garnering some decent views on all that shit? Zero. As you are aware, nobody cares about a 30somethingyearold who can maybe eek out a top ten at some BME enduro.

So tell me again how this is like me defending Lance?

Yes, people cheat, in bikes, in their job, in their relationships...in life. I'm aware. Not saying they don't. Just saying I like to live in a world where we give people the benefit of the doubt. Where we don't get to burn someone at the stake socially before they get their day to tell their side. Where due process is a thing. Where the mob doesn't rule all.

...but that's me.

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Spomer and Jeff, you sound *exactly* like Lance apologists circa 2007. Which is funny, because Jeff has already admitted to being a Lance apologist circa 2007.

"Why would Lance risk it all by doping? He wouldn't. He's an incredible rider in the first place so he doesn't need to dope, plus he's such a down-to-earth likable guy. I trust him."

People are competitive and weird, and they don't all share your values. When people can cheat, a lot of people will cheat. Not all people, but a lot of people.

BUT NO ONE WOULD CHEAT IN MOUNTAIN BIKING, WE'RE ALL JUST BROS, BRO

sspomer wrote:

i totally said no mountain biker would ever cheat ever at anything.

i said why would vinny t or jkw speed up stuff? they don't need to because they've proven themselves otherwise. sure, it doesn't rule out that they could speed stuff up, but they're not trying to build a career off of only sped up POV footage. i haven't looked at the other examples.

View this post on Instagram

🚁 clip from last year in Madeira on the #deathgripmovie line. Thanks @brendog1 for letting me ride this awesome line and @freeridemadeira for the work on the jumps. 🎮 @beni____g

A post shared by Vincent Tupin (@vinny_t_) on May 14, 2019 at 11:03am PDT

or

View this post on Instagram

Who had a good weekend?! After a ton of responsibilities I finally got a chance to ride- got four days of riding squeezed in, how refreshing!!! Even though it’s a Tuesday, the day after a long holiday weekend always feels like a Monday, so here’s a #manualmonday clip! Thanks to @colbias_funke for filmin.

A post shared by jeffkendallweed (@jeffkendallweed) on May 28, 2019 at 8:31am PDT

people are weird.

In the day and age of social media what you have done in the past is less important. People don't necessarily know who you are so if your content isn't crazy they'll lose interest really quick. If you don't race like both those guys then a big part of your career is social media. So yeah if they need tons of likes on Instagram they might need to.

RichardSherman wrote:

In the day and age of social media what you have done in the past is less important. People don't necessarily know who you are so if your content isn't crazy they'll lose interest really quick. If you don't race like both those guys then a big part of your career is social media. So yeah if they need tons of likes on Instagram they might need to.

i understand the average fan doesn't remember stuff, but vinny t is a rampage competitor and jkw seems like an ibis front man. i can't imagine a couple extra thousand (or even three hundred thousand) likes or video views would have any bearing in changing their deals over time.

whenever i have asked a rider (granted, most often racers) if they have any kind of deal structured around likes and view counts, they laugh, like it has never come up or is a possiblity. this doesn't mean it's not how it works for some riders, however.

if i was the person that wrote a pro rider a paycheck, there is no way i'd ever trust view counts or likes alone. the systems and tallies are way too vague, the views/likes can be bought or faked too easily and popularity of content often has nothing to do with the talent, skills and personality of an athlete, but more to do with gaming some kind of algorithm to crack the "home feed" of an app. speeding up footage doesn't seem like an effective way to make that happen.filming yourself talking about building your bike for 15 minutes? now that's the secret.

sspomer wrote:

i understand the average fan doesn't remember stuff, but vinny t is a rampage competitor and jkw seems like an ibis front man. i can't imagine a couple extra thousand (or even three hundred thousand) likes or video views would have any bearing in changing their deals over time.

whenever i have asked a rider (granted, most often racers) if they have any kind of deal structured around likes and view counts, they laugh, like it has never come up or is a possiblity. this doesn't mean it's not how it works for some riders, however.

if i was the person that wrote a pro rider a paycheck, there is no way i'd ever trust view counts or likes alone. the systems and tallies are way too vague, the views/likes can be bought or faked too easily and popularity of content often has nothing to do with the talent, skills and personality of an athlete, but more to do with gaming some kind of algorithm to crack the "home feed" of an app. speeding up footage doesn't seem like an effective way to make that happen.filming yourself talking about building your bike for 15 minutes? now that's the secret.

I'm not saying anyone is going to count views, likes, etc, but they are signed to promote a product so general presence is inherently important. It looks good if your stuff is making the rounds and likes and views is what gets it there in this day and age. I don't think anyone is counting them, but they are means to an end. Competing in one large event in the fall isn't enough to sustain a career. The rest of the year has to be filled with something. I would guess people use bots for the same reason some speed up footage. It's simply another way of getting your content in the eyes of more people.

Long story short if people all over are stoked on your riding it makes you more marketable. Speeding up footage is a way to help this along. It's easy for us to all say we would never do it because our careers (excluding maybe sspomer) aren't centered on content.